TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE (continued 2)

Mr. Liebeler. Drew Oswald out better?

Mr. Paine. Drew Oswald out better. But he didn't gather the impression that he was favoring Castro or Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler. What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after the meeting?

Mr. Paine. So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well as mine.

He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value.

Mr. Dulles. Did you say anything to him about the activities of the Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused of crimes under certain conditions?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then—that was a pang of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized—I had also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him; this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been—met some others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful people.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald impress you that way?

Mr. Paine. And he did not impress me that way; no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew what was what about it.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss that with Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you say and what did he say?

Mr. Paine. He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side, at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully—and he was ready to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't—Lee presented his opposing view against it without any issue.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that?

Mr. Paine. I think it was Frank who told me that.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us more about that?

Mr. Paine. I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee.

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he?

Mr. Paine. Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how to control himself.

Senator Cooper. Might I ask a question at this time? Earlier you talked about your, I think your, first meeting with Oswald and your conversation with him?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. You said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently your wife was bothered by his attitude?

Mr. Paine. She was bothered by——

Senator Cooper. I am not going into that.

Now, you have talked about this conversation with Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. Krystinik.

Senator Cooper. In which they reached some point in which further discussion was not, if not impossible, was at least difficult between them?

From these experiences you had was there a situation, that after some arguments or discussion of economic or political issues, he would reach a point in which he relied upon certain fixed positions that he held about which he would not admit of any further discussion or argument?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. He would just present his dogmatic view and then one was at loss to find any way to get off that impasse.

Senator Cooper. When he was questioned about that view or when an attempt was made to argue that view with him, would he then become angry or disturbed in any way?

Mr. Paine. The time that I reported I was angry and I noticed he was holding his temper pretty well and I wasn't going to let him hold his temper better than mine.

Senator Cooper. Did you see indication——

Mr. Paine. I saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit.

Senator Cooper. All right.

Mr. Paine. But he was dogged, I think he was practiced or skilled or took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do this, and he would do it for a long time.

Mr. Liebeler. Clench his fists and put them together?

Mr. Paine. No; it was expressing this as a mood.

Mr. Liebeler. He would hold himself back?

Mr. Paine. He would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition, and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing that and expected to stick it out. It reminded me a little bit of Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence held the match that burned down to his finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? He said no trick you just learn how to stand the pain.

Senator Cooper. I have to go and I would like to ask a few questions.

I ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on that position.

You said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this country, at least upon this issue of economic change.

Mr. Paine. This he never said that specifically. But I would ask him what policy should we take or I was trying to find if he didn't have some avenue of following a policy in this country.

Senator Cooper. Did you direct questions to him which showed some evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either refused to accept——

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did. I mean I tried to show him how labor and management, first labor had a right, I was criticizing labor for the rigid position it is getting us into now——

Senator Cooper. He would not accept that idea of evolution?

Mr. Paine. I think he did not accept it; yes.

He didn't have patience with it.

Senator Cooper. Is that also a tenet of the Communist dogma, do you know?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe, I don't know whether you can say there is a single Communist dogma of that sort. I suppose there are some groups that feel that way and others don't.

Senator Cooper. Did he indicate any other way in which he thought that economic change might come about in the United States?

Mr. Paine. He did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would come about and I on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that I held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he remained silent and I took it as disagreement. But I don't remember if he had said that.

Senator Cooper. He remained silent when you spoke about that?

Mr. Paine. When I said I was opposed to violence or said, why, when I said that he remained silent and I took it——

Senator Cooper. You took it that he disagreed in any way by your statement?

Mr. Paine. Well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw.

Senator Cooper. He did not agree with your position?

Mr. Paine. He did not agree; no.

Senator Cooper. That violence was unacceptable as a means of change?

Mr. Paine. That is right, and I don't think he perceived also, was a war of the kind of values that I am—tolerance, for instance seems to me disappears when strained situations——

Senator Cooper. Did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes that had occurred in Russia by means of violence?

Mr. Paine. No; I was trying to find out whether he thought it was going to come by revolution or not and he never did say, I never got an answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. He did not reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to make.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever discuss the revolution in Russia where by means of violence the change had come about?

Mr. Paine. He did not. That would have been the kind of argument I would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever say any way in which he was expecting Russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of violence had produced good?

Mr. Paine. No. As I say he did not—I would have accepted that argument as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up.

Senator Cooper. That is all.

Mr. Dulles. Did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the United States?

Mr. Paine. I felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify the situation.

Mr. Dulles. Other than violence or he didn't go that far?

Mr. Paine. He didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or another. They were all the same.

Churches—there is no avenue out that way. Education—there is nothing there. So that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't violent.

Mr. Dulles. Did he think that communism was different from capitalism in this respect?

(Short recess.)

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

Mr. Dulles. What I was getting at with my question was as to whether he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was just necessary with regard to the American system.

Mr. Paine. He didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he found of the Soviet Union. He had indicated he didn't like it. But I wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some way. Neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that I could see a paradise, see his paradise. He spoke only, he was opposed to exploitation of man by man. That was his motivating power.

(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he had been present at the right-wing rally that was held in Dallas the night before Stevenson appeared in Dallas?

Mr. Paine. He indicated that at the ACLU meeting.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say he had met anybody there?

Mr. Paine. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you whether or not he was at the Stevenson meeting itself?

Mr. Paine. I guess I didn't ask him that. I remember asking myself subsequently what was the answer to that question and I couldn't answer it then and I can't answer it now.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection of his mentioning it at all?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't remember what—I think I assumed that he had but——

Mr. Liebeler. You assumed that he had been at the Stevenson affair?

Mr. Paine. I think I assumed that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any basis for that assumption?

Mr. Paine. There had been some discussion in the ACLU, some other people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, I guess, this was the previous night, that awful time and I think he seemed to nod his assent. That was my——

Mr. Liebeler. You inferred from that that he had possibly been present at the Stevenson meeting?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. There was no other basis for your assumption in that regard?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. On the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10, do you recall when you came to your house in Irving?

Mr. Paine. Well, I would come out regularly on Friday after cashing my check at the bank.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember coming on Friday evening on the 8th of November?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember any break in that habit.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall whether or not Oswald was present at your home on the Friday evening November 8, 1963?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't specifically remember that.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember one way or the other?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you at the house on Saturday? November 9th?

Mr. Paine. I was at the house probably on Saturday and certainly on Sunday. I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat in front of the TV, stepping past, one of these things laying on the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to do he certainly can waste the time. By business I mean some kind of activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or something. I supposed that he spent his time as I would be inclined to spend more of my time if I had it, trying to sense the pulse of various groups in the Dallas area.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know what Oswald did on Saturday morning, November 9, 1963?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning?

Mr. Paine. She told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him for—wait. I remember the incident that he had arrived on a Saturday morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time but they cut off the line at 12 o'clock and he did not stay there long enough for him to get his driver's license student permit.

Mr. Liebeler. Was this at this time or would that have been another time. Let me help you.

Mr. Paine. I don't remember that.

Mr. Liebeler. Would it help to refresh your recollection if I suggested that November 9th was a local election day in Dallas, I believe?

Mr. Paine. I think that is an election that I have forgotten.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no knowledge of Oswald's activities on that day, no direct personal knowledge?

Mr. Paine. It doesn't, it didn't cue me in, so I don't——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?

Mr. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him driving an automobile or obtaining a driver's license?

Mr. Paine. I probably said it would be well to get a driver's license. It would be well—I probably said, "You probably need a car to get around here." In other words, effectively; no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you that he planned to purchase an automobile?

Mr. Paine. I bought this second-hand car for $200.

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of a car is that?

Mr. Paine. That is a 1956 Oldsmobile.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you buy it?

Mr. Paine. I bought it while they were there, while Marina was staying with us, which was sometime in November. Either October or November, probably the early part of November. They went out to admire the car. $200, I suppose, didn't seem out of their reach then.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he was thinking——

Mr. Paine. Therefore, I think Ruth, they went out to admire the car and, of course, I was thinking that it, this might make it appear to them that the car was within reach, and driving was something to be sought.

Mr. Liebeler. In addition to the Oldsmobile that you mentioned, you personally own a Citroen automobile and your wife owns a station wagon, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. You never saw Oswald drive any of those cars at any time?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. I had keys to both of my cars so he could not have driven them without——

Mr. Liebeler. Without your knowledge?

Mr. Paine. Or else somehow getting another. He would have to—you can, I have driven my car when I have broken the key.

Mr. Liebeler. But you never saw him drive it?

Mr. Paine. I never saw him drive it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife ever tell you that she had seen Oswald driving a car or she was trying to teach him how to drive a car?

Mr. Paine. Yes; she did.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she indicate what proficiency he had at operating an automobile?

Mr. Paine. She thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn in order to drive a car. He had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. And I think she said he over controlled it, turned too far.

Mr. Liebeler. Looking back now on all your conversations with Oswald, after his return from New Orleans, did you have any discussions with him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous testimony?

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question before you answer this question. About the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or anything of that kind? Did anything come up in the conversations with regard to his not having a car or not driving a car?

Mr. Paine. No. I gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able to drive a car.

Mr. Dulles. All right. Thank you.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall any conversations that you had with Oswald that you think would be helpful for us to know other than the ones you have already mentioned?

Mr. Paine. I don't recall one now.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward President Kennedy?

Mr. Paine. I think at this ACLU meeting he mentioned this specifically that he thought Kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. That was it—generally my impression was that he liked—he didn't like anybody, but he disliked Kennedy least as you might go right from Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, was that the only time he mentioned President Kennedy specifically?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?

Mr. Paine. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate any hostility toward the United States other than the hostility that you have previously testified to after his return from the Soviet Union and his general dislikes of the American system?

Mr. Paine. That is right. Just his general dislike.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. No; I think when I learned, I don't know when it was that he had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you learn that he planned to go back there?

Mr. Paine. That was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly subsequent to November 22.

Mr. Dulles. Or to go to Cuba?

Mr. Paine. Or to go to Cuba, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. When that was spoken——

Mr. Paine. I remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected with a Communist plot and there I thought of Russian Communists and that didn't seem to ring a bell.

Mr. Liebeler. When was that mentioned?

Mr. Paine. This was after the assassination, a day or two later. Then when the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was mentioned, that was the first I had heard of it except for his mentioning Cuba to this man at the ACLU meeting referring to it in the car to me.

Mr. Liebeler. He never told you that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. Paine. That is correct, that was the only recollection I could remember his ever having mentioned Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler. Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also.

Mr. Liebeler. You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage?

Mr. Paine. That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.

So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had to move this package several times in order to make space to work, and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the handsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more.

Mr. Liebeler. Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the package?

Mr. Paine. I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not aluminum.

Mr. Liebeler. How did you make that distinction?

Mr. Paine. By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way.

Mr. Dulles. You were just feeling this through the blanket though?

Mr. Paine. I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his rights to privacy. So I did not feel—I had to move this object, I wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I thought, an image came to mind.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole?

Mr. Paine. As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind.

Mr. Liebeler. The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing.

How long was this package in your estimation?

Mr. Paine. Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches.

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately how thick would you say it was?

Mr. Paine. I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?

Mr. Paine. That did not occur to me.

Mr. Liebeler. You never at any time looked inside the package?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package?

Mr. Paine. When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the bandsaw——

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Paine. And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there.

Mr. Liebeler. And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package?

Mr. Paine. That answered it.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that package in the garage prior to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. No; I am afraid I can't.

Mr. Dulles. Do we have the date of the first time in the record?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; I think the witness testified it was either late September or early October of 1963.

I show you a blanket which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 140 and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage?

Mr. Paine. This looks a little cleaner, of course. I was there in the night, and I also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it.

I also was concerned with moisture. This is very close to what I remember. Yesterday in my testimony I had a desire to add blue to the colors of brown and green. Last night I remembered that Thanksgiving weekend I had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which had blue in it, which is why I tried to get blue into the blanket.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you able to say at this time positively that this was the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various occasions in October and possibly November of 1963?

Mr. Paine. I didn't notice the particular design so I can't—it is a very good representative of what I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the texture of the blanket?

Mr. Paine. The texture. I felt it, of course, these several times and the texture is the same.

Mr. Liebeler. Was the package wrapped securely when it was in your garage?

Mr. Paine. I had the impression—yes, it was. The whole package was stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it was wrapped with about two strings.

Mr. Liebeler. I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Paine. I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday?

Mr. Paine. I saw a rifle being shown to Marina in an adjoining cubicle with a glass wall between us.

Mr. Liebeler. When was that?

Mr. Paine. That was the night of the 22d.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to the rifle.

Mr. Paine. I have not seen that strap.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever seen a strap like this strap?

Mr. Paine. Or anything like it.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you any idea where this strap could have come from?

Mr. Paine. I don't.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound up in that blanket or was there some string around it or——

Mr. Paine. I had the impression there were about two strings on the thing. It wouldn't—also, I didn't think you could look into the package readily.

Mr. Dulles. You would have to take something off, some string or something in order to get into the package?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. I now show you Commission Exhibit 364 which is a replica of a sack which was prepared by authorities in Dallas, and I also show you another sack which is Commission Exhibit 142, and ask you if you have ever seen in or around your garage in Irving, Tex., any sacks similar to those?

Mr. Paine. No; I haven't.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you seen any paper in your garage in Irving prior to November 22, 1963, or at any other place, at your home in Irving, Tex., that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made?

Mr. Paine. No, I haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped in polyethylene. I couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't wrapped in paper. To my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that size.

Mr. Liebeler. Will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any tape similar to that in your garage before November 22, 1963?

Mr. Paine. We have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my recollection is that the tape is a 2-inch tape, gum tape.

Mr. Liebeler. And the tape on the sack appears to be three?

Mr. Paine. This is 3-inch.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those sacks?

Mr. Paine. No, I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Either before November 22, 1963, or afterwards?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. When you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper?

Mr. Paine. I would have said that it was not. When we practiced wrapping that rifle yesterday I would have guessed that any paper around the barrel in there, which I could feel with some clarity, would have crinkled.

Mr. Liebeler. And to your recollection there was no crinkling in the package wrapped with the blanket?

Mr. Paine. Yes. It was a very quiet package.

Mr. Liebeler. Yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just examined. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. Paine. I tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that I remembered the package. I had a little difficulty, it got quite close to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. The rifle was laid in the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. Then there was a small end of the barrel, I didn't discover how you could fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than I remember. But the package came quite close to what I remembered.

Mr. Liebeler. Now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think it was or a rifle of that size.

Mr. Liebeler. You said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to Marina Oswald sometime shortly after the assassination. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event?

Mr. Paine. We went to the police station that evening, and probably about 9 o'clock, I saw the rifle being shown to Marina.

Mr. Liebeler. This was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Paine. Dallas police station. Ruth was present, and Mamantov was present.

Representative Ford. Who was the last one?

Mr. Paine. Ilya Mamantov, I think Ilya is the first name, but Mr. Mamantov. He teaches parttime, parttime teaching in Russian, was familiar to Ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in the room in which Marina was being shown this rifle?

Mr. Paine. No, no.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not your wife heard them?

Mr. Paine. My wife, of course, was right there. And heard the whole thing.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she subsequently tell you what occurred?

Mr. Paine. Yes, she did.

Mr. Liebeler. What did she tell you?

Mr. Paine. She told me that Marina wasn't able to identify that rifle as the one that Lee had. She knew that Lee had a rifle, and I think she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. I think Ruth reported that she had, Marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further.

Mr. Liebeler. This was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in the blanket in your garage, correct?

Mr. Paine. I assumed that. I didn't ask that question.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife tell you anything more about what happened at that time?

Mr. Paine. You will have to jog my memory if you have any specific questions. I don't recall.

Mr. Liebeler. That is the best of your recollection now that you have given us?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. How much would you say that the package that you saw in your garage weighed?

Mr. Paine. I reported earlier to the FBI 7 or 8 pounds. I never at the time thought of the weight of it as I was moving it around.

Mr. Liebeler. In your previous discussions or conversations with the FBI did you ever tell them in word or substance that if there had been a rifle in the package that was located in your garage that you did not think it could have a telescopic sight mounted on it?

Mr. Paine. I don't recall having said that. I don't believe I would have known that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall any discussions of that sort with the FBI at all. Did they ask you about that?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think they asked me coming out to find out when and where and how the sight may have been put on but I never felt the package in the center. I always grabbed it at these two ends.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection you never told the FBI that you didn't think the package contained a rifle with a telescopic sight?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe or hear prior to the assassination that Lee Oswald had been practicing with a rifle?

Mr. Paine. No, I didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know he had a rifle. I had supposed from my conversation with him back on Neely Street that he would like to have a rifle but I didn't gather that he did.

Mr. Liebeler. Aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle?

Mr. Paine. No, I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you familiar with the Sport's Drome Rifle Range in Grand Prairie, Tex?

Mr. Paine. I think I know about where it is. No, I don't even know where it is. I know the race track is there.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever been there?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that Oswald received mail at your house from Irving, Tex?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know what kind of mail he received?

Mr. Paine. I suppose he used it as the mailing address for most of his mail until he would receive, get a permanent address, so he received the Daily Worker there, or The Worker, and also, I didn't see it come, I don't generally see the mail that arrives there. Most of my mail would arrive at that address even though I was living somewhere else because I also didn't feel permanent in my other addresses, so Ruth would collect the mail and separated mine into a separate pile. I didn't see the Militant arrive. I did see various Russian magazines, Agitateur, maybe a very large one. A very large one and the Daily Worker, The Worker.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss these publications with Oswald?

Mr. Paine. Yes, we talked with regard to the Daily Worker. He said that, he told me, that you could tell what they wanted you to do, they, a word I dislike, what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines, reading the thing and doing a little reading between the lines. He then gave me an issue to look and see. I wanted to see if I could read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you read the particular issue that he referred to?

Mr. Paine. I tried to. I don't think I had very much patience to go through it.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what particular issue it was?

Mr. Paine. No, I didn't notice.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you set the date of this discussion that you had with Oswald?

Mr. Paine. That was fairly soon after his coming back. So let's say the middle of October.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after you had read the publication?

Mr. Paine. No, I just handed it back to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there anything else said between you at that time on that subject?

Mr. Paine. He asked me how did I like it.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you say?

Mr. Paine. And I tried to be polite. I said it was awful extreme, I thought.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he respond to that?

Mr. Paine. I think that was the end of it.

Mr. Dulles. Do I understand that this was, this Daily Worker was, mailed——

Mr. Paine. To 515.

Mr. Dulles. To your address in Irving?

Mr. Paine. That is right. Or Ruth's address.

Mr. Dulles. It wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. He gave your address for The Worker to come to?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Representative Ford. What prompted him to hand you The Worker? Was there any preface to the actual handing of it to you?

Mr. Paine. Yes. I think I was asking him, I would like to, I wanted to see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. I think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of you or Ruth Paine or was it just sent at the Paine address?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember for certain. I would think it would have just been Oswald at that address but I don't remember. It may have been. There were enough of those packages but I just don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you draw any inference at the time as a result of this conversation with Oswald about his statement that you could tell what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines?

Mr. Paine. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be active in some kind of—activist. It made me also feel that he wasn't very well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of communication, and I thought it was rather childish to someone like Dick Tracy, attract a child to Dick Tracy, to think that that was his bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this Communist cause or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any other discussions with him about literature that he received?

Mr. Paine. I didn't know. Other literature, I was somewhat interested in what the Russian publications were saying but I didn't take it up with him. I wanted Ruth to translate those.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature?

Mr. Paine. No, I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know that he ever received any such literature?

Mr. Paine. No, I never, until after the assassination, I had never thought of Cuba either in connection with Oswald or in connection with the Communists or the Communist Party.

Mr. Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit 128 which is ENCO Map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map.

Mr. Paine. This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would then want to go.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us——

Mr. Paine. This mark is still here.

Representative Ford. This is the mark or can you identify that mark that you placed on this map?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map.

Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map.

Mr. Liebeler. In your statement referring to one side of the map you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort Worth-Dallas area, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on this side of the map?

Mr. Paine. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having found. I don't remember finding another one.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember putting that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. I remember putting—I think I put this kind of mark on more than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to all the arteries and what not that lead to various places.

Mr. Liebeler. You do think then it is probable that you did place the mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, Tex.; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think that is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into possession of this map?

Mr. Paine. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to—she told me she gave him a map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him when he was searching for a job.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife about the map before the assassination?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I don't believe we discussed it at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of placing that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on the map.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it likely that you placed that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near that address.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.?

Mr. Paine. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Liebeler. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to?

Mr. Paine. I will take your word for that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know that it is?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't looked into it and didn't check it.

Mr. Liebeler. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the Ridgway company is in this intersection or not?

Mr. Paine. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about that area. I don't remember the names of the roads.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll and San Jacinto Streets?

Mr. Paine. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it was and know in my mind where I wanted to go.

Mr. Dulles. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map?

Mr. Paine. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather than—generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to go and I go.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to Oswald?

Mr. Paine. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and started looking for work.

Mr. Liebeler. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking to find this reproduction place; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, and I ask you if you put that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different from the other mark, and it is—if I were to make a mark that is more the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property.

Mr. Dulles. Is there a mark there at that place where you were interested in buying property?

Mr. Paine. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't have that map at that time. Also I was not living—I would guess for a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that August date was because I hadn't been living—I had been living in this apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the same map that Ruth had around her house.

Mr. Liebeler. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any marks on that map other than the one indicating your home?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in this locating of property for several years.

Mr. Liebeler. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the type that you usually make?

Mr. Paine. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the others—somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which are not the kind I would make.

Mr. Liebeler. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map other than the ones we have discussed?

Mr. Paine. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria there is not exactly at the right spot.

Mr. Liebeler. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks which you think you might have put on the map?

Mr. Paine. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he having located most of the marks he could find on the map—no, I guess it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can remember there that I might have put on there.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he would be likely to take the life of any human being?

Mr. Paine. It was a question we had to consider when we considered having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course, I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense—he didn't display hostility to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He was only unreasonable the first time I had met him.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you have this discussion with your wife concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that before they came back from New Orleans?

Mr. Paine. Yes, it was.

Mr. Liebeler. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why Marina should not come there; is that right?

Mr. Paine. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that rather than worried.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis of his activities and your observation of him during that period?

Mr. Paine. It was reinforced.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President?

Mr. Paine. I didn't—I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was harmless.

Representative Ford. Was this a different reaction from the one you had had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance?

Mr. Paine. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked, especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to be separating a family that could get along.

Mr. Liebeler. This bitterness that you detected following his return from Mexico, was that a new reaction?

Mr. Paine. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her.

Mr. Liebeler. I see.

Mr. Paine. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and making sharp jibes at her.

Mr. Dulles. And that continued awhile?

Mr. Paine. That only existed that first night in March or April.

Mr. Dulles. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving?

Mr. Paine. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear.

Mr. Dulles. Did you get any information from any source with regard to the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to get away from him?

Mr. Paine. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had expected to leave.

Mr. Dulles. Then your wife took her back, as you recall?

Mr. Paine. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon, Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina to come back with her right then.

Mr. Dulles. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back?

Mr. Paine. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and sorry—it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities in him at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving, and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been prior to that time; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Well, I don't—I only know two times, at the time in April when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in.

She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans, and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out there. She had also been eager to go out.

Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had been very happy.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you specifically consider the question before you let Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person?

Mr. Paine. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself.

Mr. Liebeler. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that time that he was not a violent person; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina.

Mr. Liebeler. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people?

Mr. Paine. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was partly based, first, on the fact that we were not—we were careful to avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended.

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might exhibit violence to some other person?

Mr. Paine. That is correct; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. We assumed or felt that—if we handled him with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us.

Mr. Dulles. In the light of subsequent information and developments, and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee Oswald was the assassin of the President?

Mr. Paine. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it, my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful to me.

Mr. Liebeler. Seemed quite powerful?

Mr. Paine. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought that—he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time?

Mr. Paine. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover—it didn't quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view that he did it.

Mr. Liebeler. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Paine. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was with you?

Mr. Paine. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at that lunchtime, of all things.

Mr. Liebeler. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination?

Mr. Paine. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in extrasensory perception, but we happened to just—we didn't have enough historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there.

When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them.

So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to—a friend or one of the few friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to—join the mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't going to do it, so I didn't.

I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated nothing at that time.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not telephone the FBI?

Mr. Paine. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab.

Mr. Dulles. At the lab?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside you and your companion at the time of the conversation?

Mr. Paine. No, just he and I.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best you can recall.

Mr. Paine. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is, it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building mentioned. Now, I did not know that—it never occurred to me, I didn't realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had supposed, I never put—except when it was mentioned that that was the building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, then I realized I did know where he worked.

Mr. Dulles. You had not been at Irving that previous night?

Mr. Paine. No, I had not.

Mr. Liebeler. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. Liebeler. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you think?

Mr. Paine. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational.

Mr. Liebeler. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked in that building, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but then I realized I didn't know—I knew he worked at that organization. I didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned—in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.

Mr. Liebeler. So then you left for your home in Irving?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. You left for home before there had been any public connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time.

Mr. Liebeler. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer Tippit?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had been involved in the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway.

Mr. Liebeler. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that building mentioned in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands—he is a black sheep in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building.

Mr. Liebeler. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state of mind.

Mr. Paine. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the FBI.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI?

Mr. Paine. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the individual, and I didn't think—I would not like to, if Lee is falsely accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there, he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much beyond that, could he, could he.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of his knowledge of Oswald?

Mr. Paine. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem.

The Chairman. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any other reason?

Mr. Paine. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Paine. I felt the same one—if you were to pick out somebody in that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not a person with compassion or something.

Mr. Liebeler. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving?

Mr. Paine. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. Paine. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there.

Mr. Liebeler. Your wife was there?

Mr. Paine. My wife and Marina.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what you said when you arrived?

Mr. Paine. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building?"

Mr. Paine. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald mentioned. I did not come home.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon as you heard that Oswald was involved?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been previously searched by the police or anyone else?

Mr. Paine. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they went into—I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time they had gone in.

Mr. Liebeler. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the blanket was there in the garage?

Mr. Paine. I think it was. It was still there.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you into the garage with the police officers?

Mr. Paine. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I stayed—the band saw is fairly close to—there is an overhead door to the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the inside end of the garage.

Mr. Liebeler. And your wife was with the police officers further in?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think she was.

Mr. Liebeler. Was Marina Oswald there?

Mr. Paine. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very fuzzy recollection.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us where the blanket was found?

Mr. Paine. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was in this?"

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that?

Mr. Paine. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that blanket.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that?

Mr. Paine. No; but I think—I'm just telling you my impressions here, very fuzzy impressions.

Mr. Liebeler. Go ahead.

Mr. Paine. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package.

Mr. Liebeler. What else happened?

Mr. Paine. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket then even.

Mr. Liebeler. This is the Dallas police officer?

Mr. Paine. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects.

So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were—he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do.

Mr. Liebeler. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house?

Mr. Paine. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other conversations about this blanket?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously identified, particularly Commission 142?

Mr. Paine. Not that I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Is there anything else that happened during this period prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant or that we ought to know about?

Mr. Paine. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. Marina was—whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry.

Mr. Liebeler. You went with the police?

Mr. Paine. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think they went in the garage to take photographs. Several—their possessions were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and Irving and FBI, and what not.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before?

Mr. Paine. I had heard that—I didn't know it was associated with our numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it was some other part of the country.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone?

Mr. Paine. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her from there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible?

Mr. Paine. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. You are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between them or a disenchantment.

Mr. Paine. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about—she explained to me she couldn't talk about—political or economic subjects. It was a topic on which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with Ruth herself.

Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the opposite.

Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money. The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was happier.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn——

Mr. Paine. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know how well she knew her.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some strain between Marina and Ruth?

Mr. Paine. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part, and so we talked about that thing.

Mr. Dulles. When did she learn that?

Mr. Paine. This was in the newspaper report.

Mr. Dulles. She only learned it through the newspaper?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps—we believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them.

So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had another—some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina. Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she could sign her checks, checks or gifts.

So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right beside her if she wanted to call.

Mr. Dulles. How did she receive these checks?

Mr. Paine. I guess Ruth—some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Paine. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and anxiety.

Mr. Dulles. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert Oswald?

Mr. Paine. We only met him for the first time on the night of the assassination. We both liked him at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know about in connection with this assassination?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe there is anything else that I know.

Mr. Liebeler. I have no more questions.

The Chairman. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. Dulles. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. Were you in the police station?

Mr. Paine. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or 9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you?

Mr. Paine. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not know what he would ask me, so I did not see him.

Mr. Dulles. You did not see him?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did your wife see him?

Mr. Paine. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning hoping to see him.

Mr. Dulles. There were no conversations that took place that evening that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know?

Mr. Paine. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.

Mr. Dulles. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this apparent coolness?

Mr. Paine. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine.

Mr. Dulles. You think money considerations had anything to do with this?

Mr. Paine. I think quite a lot—it will be borne out, between Ruth and Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think Thorne——

Mr. Dulles. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations that were coming in to Marina.

Mr. Paine. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to Marina in regard to Ruth.

Mr. Dulles. That is all.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine.

Mr. Paine. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)