Thursday, March 19, 1964 TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED (continued 2)

Mrs. Paine. No; not yet.

Mr. Jenner. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. It is in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a draft of a letter?

Mrs. Paine. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent.

Mr. Jenner. You testified about that letter yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you not?

Mrs. Paine. It is dated April 7.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an invitation.

Mr. Jenner. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge on the 7th.

Mr. Jenner. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed writing it?

Mrs. Paine. I have added since completing writing, I have added in pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same.

Mr. Jenner. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document in evidence.

Mr. McCloy. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration.

Mr. Jenner. You were quite right, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Where were you in the summer of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. May I interrupt.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to Lee's driving in Exhibit 424?

Mr. Jenner. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into it.

Mrs. Paine. I have it underlined.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Mrs. Paine. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. Jenner. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. Jenner. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the beginning to the end.

Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of this whole subject? Start at the very beginning.

Mrs. Paine. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee——

Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. This would be early in your acquaintance with him?

Mrs. Paine. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't have a license.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn he was not able to drive?

Mrs. Paine. I think it was related to his looking for work the first time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the Dallas area for work.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn it?

Mrs. Paine. We were talking about it.

Mr. Jenner. You were talking with Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car?

Mrs. Paine. That he had never learned how.

Mr. Jenner. That he had difficulty in getting around?

Mrs. Paine. Simply he had never learned how.

Mr. Jenner. He said this to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so.

Mr. Jenner. You said that to him?

Mrs. Paine. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his uncle to drive his uncle's car.

Mr. Jenner. That is Mr. Murret?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know whether there was more than one.

Mr. Jenner. But he volunteered the statement to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to drive the car on the street.

Mr. Jenner. On the street?

Mrs. Paine. On the street.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to verify that in any respect whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or have it verified to you?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. This was confined to a remark that he made to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that paragraph—shall we read it?

Mr. Jenner. Haven't I already read it?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. You mean from your letter?

Mrs. Paine. Did you read that?

Mr. Jenner. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car."

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans, and——

Mrs. Paine. The second week in May.

Mr. Jenner. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and he was proud of this.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New Orleans in the spring to drive your car?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at all during—did you have the feeling that he would like to drive the car?

Mrs. Paine. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive?

Mrs. Paine. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. Jenner. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald driving an automobile or his ability to drive?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So when next——

Senator Cooper. May I ask this one question?

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Senator Cooper. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to drive his car?

Mrs. Paine. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did not identify his uncle by name.

Senator Cooper. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was?

Mrs. Paine. I can only assume.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying with. He had been staying at his home.

Mr. Jenner. You had met the uncle at this time?

Mrs. Paine. Just met him.

Mr. Jenner. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just before he obtained the apartment at Magazine?

Mr. McCloy. What is the uncle's name?

Mr. Jenner. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is where she was going to live, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. You want all other references to driving?

Mr. Jenner. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next recall it?

Mrs. Paine. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in October.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mrs. Paine. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. The 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. That was the first I know.

Mr. Jenner. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you stick with the automobile incidents.

Mrs. Paine. He was looking for work.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do about it?

Mrs. Paine. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for driving, what you need to know to pass the written test.

Mr. Jenner. In what State?

Mrs. Paine. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it would assist him in connection with his job hunting.

Mrs. Paine. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it.

Mr. Jenner. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of recommendations by you, or what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn to drive.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He was interested in learning to drive.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything to you?

Mrs. Paine. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't get to last night.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving.

Mr. Jenner. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable.

Mr. Jenner. Why don't we give it a number?

Mrs. Paine. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which I would like especially to bring up.

Mr. Jenner. Having that in mind, we will give that document for identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. 425.

I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will be using it to refresh her recollection.

Mrs. Paine. I will read what applies here.

Mr. Jenner. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425.

Mrs. Paine. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to my mother.

Mr. Dulles. Would you give your mother's name?

Mrs. Paine. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde.

Representative Boggs. Where does she live?

Mrs. Paine. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where she was a student at that time.

"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive this will open up more job possibilities and more locations."

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. Now?

Mr. Jenner. Go right ahead.

Mrs. Paine. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took place.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best present recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to practice. He, however, started the car.

Mr. Jenner. He got in and started the car?

Mrs. Paine. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot.

Mr. Jenner. He wanted to?

Mrs. Paine. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he would never forgive me."

Mr. Jenner. Your father?

Mrs. Paine. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit before he would drive on the street.

Mr. Jenner. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in your presence, as though he himself thought——

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That was your full impression, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive back." I didn't want him to.

Mr. Jenner. From your home to the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop.

Mr. Jenner. Was this on the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. This was all on a parking lot.

Mr. Dulles. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle——

Mr. Dulles. How well did he do on that?

Mr. McCloy. That is what she is telling.

Mrs. Paine. No; that is a separate answer.

Mr. Jenner. She is talking about the parking lot.

Mrs. Paine. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a corner.

Mr. Jenner. Was there much traffic?

Mrs. Paine. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the wheels, actual wheels of the power——

Mr. Jenner. Was it power——

Mrs. Paine. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that makes it a lot easier to drive.

Mr. Jenner. It is an automatic transmission?

Mrs. Paine. It is an automatic transmission.

Mr. Jenner. Describe your automobile, will you please?

Mrs. Paine. It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, which we bought secondhand. It is in my name.

Mr. McCloy. But automatic transmission?

Mrs. Paine. Automatic transmission; yes.

Then, in the later lessons, I think there were altogether three with Lee——

Mr. Jenner. Have you finished with this lesson on the Sunday morning, was it?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was a Sunday afternoon and I drove back to the house.

Mr. Jenner. How long did the lesson take on the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, 20 minutes, perhaps. I will say of him that he set for himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now I am going to back up this way and I am going—one of the problems is to turn around and go the other way on the street. In other words——

Mr. Jenner. U-turn.

Mrs. Paine. It is not a U-turn, no. It is a narrower one to head in back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, driving, going back, I mean. And set himself a course. I was doing this, too, but I was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire to achieve; desire to do this and do it well.

In helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost say.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred?

Mrs. Paine. My letter is dated the 14th. I say, "I taught him yesterday, Sunday."

Mr. Jenner. Fourteenth of October?

Mrs. Paine. Fourteenth of October. So that would have been——

Mr. Jenner. That would have been October 7?

Mrs. Paine. Thirteenth.

Senator Cooper. May I ask a question here?

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper has a question.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Senator Cooper. On the occasion when you drove with him, did you find it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Senator Cooper. How to take steps to start the car and put it in motion?

Mrs. Paine. No, indeed; he had started it before I came out or else he wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because I didn't want him to drive on the street. So he had the car ready to go; backed out with a considerable bump.

Mr. Jenner. He backed out of the driveway?

Mrs. Paine. I am recalling this now, I think so. I recall that he then didn't attempt to go, I didn't let him, but at one point we practiced parking on the street in front of my house.

Mr. Jenner. This was a subsequent occasion?

Mrs. Paine. This was a subsequent occasion. But when the lesson was done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. This is harder and I was glad to do it and he was glad to be relieved of that requirement.

Representative Boggs. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt this line of inquiry, but I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office and I can't be back this afternoon, and I wonder if I might ask Mrs. Paine several questions?

Mr. McCloy. By all means.

Representative Boggs. Not particularly in this line.

Where did you first meet Marina. I know you told us.

Mr. McCloy. She testified to that yesterday.

Representative Boggs. Tell me briefly.

Mrs. Paine. At a party of people at the end of February 1963.

Representative Boggs. How long was it thereafter that she moved into your home for the first time?

Mrs. Paine. She first came on the 24th of April.

Representative Boggs. And she lived there for 2 weeks?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. And her husband lived here—her husband was with her?

Mrs. Paine. No. He had already gone on to New Orleans.

Representative Boggs. When did she return to your home?

Mrs. Paine. She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September.

Representative Boggs. And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of September until the 23d?

Mrs. Paine. The morning of the 23d.

Representative Boggs. Of November?

Mrs. Paine. She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come back.

Representative Boggs. During that period of time did Lee Oswald live there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. He visited there on weekends?

Mrs. Paine. He visited there on weekends.

Representative Boggs. How well did you know Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Insufficiently well.

Representative Boggs. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't perceive him as a violent man.

Representative Boggs. You saw no evidence of violence in him at any time?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck her. I never heard from her of any violence from him.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever express any hostility toward anyone while he was talking with you?

Mrs. Paine. Not of a violent or——

Representative Boggs. Did he ever express any political opinions to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, he called himself a Marxist. He said that on the occasion after Stevenson had been in town in relation to the United Nations Day.

Mr. Jenner. Adlai Stevenson?

Mrs. Paine. Adlai Stevenson, and Lee had been to a meeting of the National Indignation Committee held another night that week, and he was at our home the following Friday night and commented that he didn't like General Walker.

This is the only thing I heard from him on the subject.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever express any violence toward General Walker?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever discuss President Kennedy with you?

Mrs. Paine. He never mentioned Kennedy at all.

Representative Boggs. Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home?

Mrs. Paine. In the garage, no.

Representative Boggs. In the garage, you never saw one?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to me in the station on the 22d of November.

Representative Boggs. Were you at home when the FBI interviewed Marina and Lee?

Mrs. Paine. The FBI never interviewed Marina and me; I was waiting to hear your question.

Representative Boggs. At your home?

Mrs. Paine. The FBI never interviewed Marina and Lee at my home. The FBI was there one afternoon and talked to Marina through me; they never saw Lee Oswald in my home. I told them he would be there on a weekend.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever discuss politics with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. As close as we would come, I would say, would be what I have mentioned about Madam Nhu; she was interested in what the family would do. She also said to me that she thought Khrushchev was a rather coarse, country person. She said that she admired Mrs. Kennedy a great deal, and liked, this is all before, liked President Kennedy very much.

Mr. Jenner. This was all before November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Were you aware of the fact that Lee returned to your home the night before the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Were you curious about that in view of the fact that he seldom came except on weekends?

Mrs. Paine. It was the first time he had come without asking permission to come. He came after he and his wife had quarreled, and Marina and I said to one another, we took this to be as close as he could come to an apology, and an effort to make up.

Representative Boggs. That was the reason you thought he had come?

Mrs. Paine. But I didn't inquire of him.

Representative Boggs. You did not know that the next morning when he left he had a rifle?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. Did you see him when he left that morning?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't.

Representative Boggs. Have you been active in politics yourself?

Mrs. Paine. No; I vote. And I am a member of the League of Women Voters, that is the extent of my activity.

Representative Boggs. Do you belong to any other political organizations?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever belonged?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. Are you, I don't know quite how to state this question, are you a practicing Quaker?

Mrs. Paine. I am. I am also a pacifist.

Representative Boggs. You are a pacifist?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. You are not a Marxist?

Mrs. Paine. No; they don't go together, in fact. You can't believe violent overthrow and be a pacifist.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know Norman Thomas quite well?

Mrs. Paine. When I was 8 I went to a rally of Norman Thomas in New York City. That was my only contact.

Representative Boggs. Is your feeling towards Marina, shall I say in the Quaker spirit of friendship and hospitality, was that the main objective, plus the intellectual?

Mrs. Paine. I was interested in the language.

Representative Boggs. Intellectual stimulation of the language.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I found that while living with her, I could say that this day, at least added something to what I knew, what I—I learned a few more words.

Representative Boggs. You never formed any opinion about Lee Oswald as a person?

Mrs. Paine. I formed many, and I would like to make that a special area.

Representative Boggs. Would you just tell me just in a sentence or two, I know you could go into it in greater detail, but was your opinion favorable? Was it unfavorable, or what?

Mrs. Paine. I disliked him actively in the spring when I thought he just wanted to get rid of his wife and wasn't caring about her, wasn't concerned whether she would go to the doctor. I then found him much nicer, I thought, when I saw him next in New Orleans in late September, and this would be a perfectly good time to admit the rest of the pertinent part of this letter to my mother written October 14, because it shows something that I think should be part of the public record, and I am one of the few people who can give it, that presents Lee Oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre that was out to leave his wife, and be harsh and hostile to all that he knew.

But in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, I saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome although he really preferred to stay to himself.

He wasn't much to take up a conversation. This says, "Dear Mom," this is from Commission Exhibit No. 425, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas. Did my last letter say so? Probably not. He arrived a week and a half ago and has been looking for work since. It is a very depressing business for him, I am sure. He spent last weekend and the one before with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. He played with Chris"—my 3-year-old, then 2—"watched football on the TV, planed down the doors that wouldn't close, they had shifted and generally added a needed masculine flavor"——

Mr. Jenner. Wait a second.

Mrs. Paine. "And generally added a needed masculine flavor. From a poor first impression I have come to like him. We saw the doctor at Parkland Hospital last Friday and all seems very healthy" and this refers to Marina. "It appears that charges will be geared to their ability to pay."

Representative Boggs. Were you——

Mrs. Paine. May I go on?

Representative Boggs. Yes; surely. Finish.

Mrs. Paine. This was an intervening section where he was the most human that I saw him, and, of course, it has been followed by my anger with him, and all the feeling that most of us have about his act. But it seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many respects, and who appeared ordinary.

If we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as unusual, then we don't know this man, we have no means of recognizing such a person again in advance of a crime such as he committed.

The important thing, I feel, and the only protection we have is to realize how human he was though he added to it this sudden and great violence beyond——

Representative Boggs. You have no doubt about the fact that he assassinated President Kennedy?

Mrs. Paine. I have no present doubt.

Representative Boggs. Do you have any reason to believe he was associated with anyone else in this act or it was part of a conspiracy?

Mrs. Paine. I have no reason to believe he was associated with anyone.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever see him talking with anyone else, in conversation with anybody else or get mail at your home?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw him talking with anyone else. He received all his mail from home, third class for the most part perhaps one letter from Russia.

Representative Boggs. Did he have telephone calls at your home of a mysterious nature?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did he ever have a telephone call at your home mysterious or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. No; never.

Representative Boggs. You then would be surprised if he were part of any group?

Mrs. Paine. I would be very surprised. For one thing, I judged, I had to wonder whether this man was a spy or someone dangerous to our Nation. He had been to the Soviet Union and he had come back and he didn't go as a tourist. He went by his own admission intending to become a Soviet citizen and then came back.

Representative Boggs. What about Marina—go ahead and finish.

Mrs. Paine. Then the FBI came, as I thought they well might, interested in this man who had been to the Soviet Union, and I felt that if he had associations this would be very easy for them to know. I didn't see any, but would tend to point to the possibility of his being a spy or subversive. But I didn't see any such and I felt happy that they were charged with the responsibility of knowing about it.

Representative Boggs. Did you see any indication of any connection of Marina with any group that might be considered unusual?

Mrs. Paine. No; no one called her.

Representative Boggs. Did she have any letters?

Mrs. Paine. She received a letter from a friend in the Soviet Union which she showed to me and mentioned to me.

Representative Boggs. Was this just a normal letter?

Mrs. Paine. Girl friend.

Representative Boggs. What is your present relationship with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I have seen her once since the assassination. That was a week ago Monday. It was the first time since the morning of the 23d when she left my house, both of us expecting she would come back to it that evening. In the intervening period I wrote her a collection of letters trying to determine what her feelings were and whether it was suitable for me to write and see her.

I am presently confused, as I was then, as to how to best be a friend to her. I don't know what is appropriate in this situation.

By that I mean during the time I was writing the letters to her and not getting an answer when she was with Mr. Martin.

Representative Boggs. Was your conversation last Monday friendly?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mrs. Paine.

Mr. McCloy. Might I ask one question?

You said that Lee had mentioned General Walker and indicated that he didn't like General Walker. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, to what extent, how violent was he in his expression?

Mrs. Paine. No; it wasn't violent at all. It was more of, oh, well, more not giving him much credit even, but it was done briefly, this was in passing, so my recollection is hazy. But certainly there was no strong expression.

Mr. McCloy. No vehemence about it?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely not, I would have remembered that. And I recall that Marina said nothing.

Mr. McCloy. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. You mentioned that Lee did not receive any calls at your house. Did he make any telephone calls?

Mrs. Paine. I heard him call what he said was the "Time." You know, he dialed, listened and hung up, and then he told us what time it was. That is all his social contact.

Mr. McCloy. This is only on one occasion that he spoke of General Walker?

Mrs. Paine. Just that one in my hearing, apropos of a discussion that was already begun.

Mr. McCloy. We have rather interrupted the sequence of your questioning.

Mr. Jenner. That is all right.

Representative Boggs. There is one item I might bring out along the line you were inquiring about.

You gave some consideration, did you not, Mrs. Paine, during this period, as to whether Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, could or might have been a Russian agent.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we discussed this yesterday, as I recall?

Mrs. Paine. Briefly.

Mr. Jenner. And what conclusions did you come to on that score and why?

Mrs. Paine. I thought that he was not very intelligent. I saw as far as I could see he had no particular contacts. He was not a person I would have hired for a job of any sort, no more than I would have let him borrow my car.

Mr. Jenner. Did you give consideration in that connection? Did his level of intelligence affect your judgment as to whether the Russian Government would have hired him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did it affect you?

Mrs. Paine. I doubted they would have hired him. I kept my mind open on it to wonder.

Mr. Jenner. And you had doubt why?

Mrs. Paine. Simply because he had gone to the Soviet Union and announced that he wanted to stay, and then came back, and I wasn't convinced that he liked America.

Mr. Jenner. Did your judgment of him, and as to his level of intelligence, affect your decision ultimately that the Russian Government might not or would not have hired him because he was not a man of capacity to serve in such a way for the Russian Government?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that affected my judgment.

Mr. Dulles. Have you any idea as to his motivation in the act, in light of what you have said in the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. It is conjecture, of course, but I feel he always felt himself to be a small person; and he was right. That he wanted to be greater, or noticed, and Marina had said of him he thinks he is so big and fine, and he should take a more realistic view of himself and not be so conceited.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mrs. Paine. And I feel that he acted much more from the emotional pushings within him than from any rational set of ideas, and——

Mr. Dulles. Emotional pushings toward aggrandizement you have in mind is what you said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. When you testified earlier this morning, Mrs. Paine, about the dry sighting of the rifle, you know what dry sighting is, don't you?

Mrs. Paine. I found out last night.

Mr. McCloy. You found that out last night?

Senator Cooper. Tell her to describe it then.

Mrs. Paine. Shall I try to describe it? See if I know? It involves holding the rifle and as if to fire and pulling the trigger, but without any ammunition in it. Going through the motions and, therefore, wiggling it and having to resight it.

Representative Ford. Going through the motions?

Mrs. Paine. Of ejecting something.

Senator Cooper. A dry run.

Mr. Jenner. Is that sufficient, Senator?

Mrs. Paine. Do I understand it?

Mr. McCloy. That is a pretty good description, it is just as well as I can give.

Representative Ford. You actually saw him doing this?

Mrs. Paine. No, he showed me last night how it was done.

Mr. McCloy. We had testimony this morning whether he had an opportunity to dry sight the rifle in his New Orleans house.

Mrs. Paine. I was just discussing what would be visible in the front of his house.

Mr. Jenner. We were having some testimony, Representative Ford, of Lee Harvey Oswald's dry sighting of the rifle when he was in New Orleans.

Representative Ford. Marina so testified when she was here.

Mr. McCloy. You don't purport to say it was impossible for him to do it without observation but it was difficult.

Mrs. Paine. It was difficult.

My then 2-year-old boy found a number of boys with trucks to play with right on that immediate driveway or alley as it is marked on the paper and small boys would have been very interested and they went right by there and Marina complained that Junie couldn't get her nap because there were so many children.

Mr. McCloy. He could have done it very early in the morning without observation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Have you any idea generally how Lee Oswald used his time, I mean when you weren't observing him when he wasn't at your house? Did he talk, tell you how he used his time? Did he use it on television? What I am trying to get at is—is there a great deal of time he had available to him that there is no way of knowing what he did. But did he talk about that, did he give you an idea of what he was, how he occupied himself, reading, television?

Mrs. Paine. Talking just about the time after October 4 when he was——

Mr. Dulles. Yes; let's take it in that period.

Mrs. Paine. I knew he was occupied with looking for a job.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. How much of the day this occupied him, of course, I didn't know. I didn't see him. Then he got the job, and I judge that occupied him more fully. He spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this National Indignation Committee meeting.

Mr. Dulles. What about other evenings? Do you know anything about other evenings when he wasn't with you?

Mrs. Paine. Except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a Civil Liberties Union meeting.

Mr. Dulles. All right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner in which you did invite Marina?

Mrs. Paine. My mother completed her studies at Oberlin College in February, and we talked——

Mr. Jenner. February 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No; just now, February of 1964 and we talked about the possibility as long ago as last summer of 1963, we talked about the possibility of her coming and staying for several months. I said I was tired of living alone. This is not exactly comparable, but it also is a search for a roommate.

Mr. McCloy. But apart from your mother, there was no one similarly situated to Marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you?

Mrs. Paine. No one situated similarly that I knew either.

Mr. McCloy. No; you didn't invite anyone?

Mrs. Paine. Didn't make any other such invitation.

Mr. McCloy. Anyone to live with you.

Mr. Jenner. Before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the tail end at least of Representative Boggs' inquiries of you, did you ever give any consideration, Mrs. Paine, to the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald might have been employed by some agency of the Government of the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I never gave that any consideration.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. None whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. It never occurred to you at any time?

Mrs. Paine. It never occurred to me at any time.

Mr. Jenner. That is all on that.

Was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment of Lee Harvey Oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly intelligent man?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. There was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That, and he was not in a position to know anything of use to either Government. I am questioning myself.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please elaborate?

Mrs. Paine. As regards he might be a Soviet agent, what does this man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the Soviets might be interested in, and, as I say, I never gave it any thought of the possibility of his being employed by this Government.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine had been relating to us her experiences with Lee Harvey Oswald with respect to his ability to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is causing the staff considerable concern. This is his ability to drive which is a proper connection with his visit to Mexico in some one or two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other elements.

We interrupted the chronology to have Mrs. Paine state fully everything she knows on this particular subject.

Representative Ford. It is important.

Mr. Jenner. If we can recall just about where you were because I would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this chronology.

Mrs. Paine. I had about completed the full statement of what I saw of his driving.

I will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner he would turn too far and have to correct. I will complete now by describing my teaching him to park.

Mr. Jenner. Was this on that same Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. There were, I think, three altogether, but I am not certain. This is the only particular reference.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, but I think, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine has related to us something we had not known, that this Sunday afternoon——

Mrs. Paine. October 13.

Mr. Jenner. October 13, when she sought to instruct Lee Harvey Oswald on the local parking lot—was it by a shopping center?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the key, and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the street.

Mrs. Paine. And then proceeded to drive to the shopping center.

Mr. Jenner. With Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. While I complained.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine complaining because she was concerned; she is the daughter of an insurance actuary.

Mrs. Paine. In my complaint I simply said that I would drive back, and that I didn't want him to drive on the street, but I didn't insist that he stop at that moment.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mrs. Paine. I recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking directly in front of our house, and when, as I say, after he had done this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a little harder to do.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway?

Mrs. Paine. Always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage itself is too full of many other things.

Mr. Jenner. Did you leave the key in the car?

Mrs. Paine. I never leave the key in the car; I always lock it.

Mr. Jenner. That was your habit with respect to the ignition key?

Mrs. Paine. I always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my purse.

Mr. Jenner. You never leave the ignition key around your home?

Mrs. Paine. Well, my purse was in the home.

Mr. Jenner. So it was not in the open?

Mrs. Paine. He had to go in the purse, never. Just how he got the car started, I recall my shock that he had. But I must have laid out the key or something because I did not intend for him to start it.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and start the motor?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely not.

Mr. Jenner. But when you came out of the house he had already started the motor and backed the car into the street?

Mrs. Paine. No, no; I let him back it out.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mrs. Paine. I was deciding what I was going to do.

Mr. Dulles. You were in the car at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I had gotten in the car at that time.

Representative Ford. And he was in the driver's seat?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection. Then, referring now to the practice of his parking.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets, in New Orleans on the street.

Go ahead.

Representative Ford. Perhaps I should say that I have been absent for a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up to date on it.

Mrs. Paine. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes.

Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise. It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the turn.

And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right several times, and he learned quite well, I thought.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Representative Ford. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative?

Mrs. Paine. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him—give Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened.

Representative Ford. This was in October of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. October and November. I think the last lesson was November 10, being the last Sunday.

Mr. Dulles. What progress did he make over that period?

Mrs. Paine. Considerable.

Mr. Dulles. Reasonable progress?

Mrs. Paine. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really began to understand the feeling of parking.

Representative Ford. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a driver's license?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to go into that.

Mr. Dulles. There was some testimony on that point, I believe.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering whether he mentioned it to you?

Mr. Dulles. Got in line.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in Texas.

Mr. Jenner. This was the weekend he was home?

Mrs. Paine. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last weekend he was home, don't call it home though.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the course of events?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there—that is all of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak Cliff—when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we returned.

The next weekend——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, before you reach that.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to Irving the previous afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he had already had a job that weekend, didn't he? So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the morning, Saturday morning.

Mr. Jenner. Looking for another job?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, well, no.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied with the job at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. And was undertaking to look for another job?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There is no discussion?

Mrs. Paine. There is one Saturday that he came out later but that was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that particular Friday but would come the next day?

Mrs. Paine. I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for a different job.

Mr. Jenner. Never any discussion on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Never.

Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but I——

Representative Ford. That would be the weekend of the 18th?

Mrs. Paine. Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. This was a conversation between you and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did it take place?

Mrs. Paine. It must have been by phone.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call you or did you call him?

Mrs. Paine. He called to the house nearly every night around 5:30 to talk to Marina. And Marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't come out that weekend because I was having a birthday party and it had been a long weekend, the prior weekend. She didn't want him to wear out his welcome, and then I said to him he could still try to get——

Mr. Jenner. You did talk with him on the telephone?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test.

Mr. Jenner. Take his initial test?

Mrs. Paine. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still too late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.

Mr. Jenner. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. The weekend before.

Mr. Jenner. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place?

Mrs. Paine. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it.

Mr. Jenner. When did she tell you about it?

Mrs. Paine. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon.

Mr. Jenner. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. This was the weekend he did not come out.

Mr. Jenner. The weekend in which you had your birthday party for your son was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was either that same afternoon or it was possibly Sunday, I don't recall. It is important though. I wish I could recall when his call to her was. Since it relates to the problem of when I dialed his number.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 426 a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's license permit application by Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a one-page form document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper.

Are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and handprinting on that document is or is not Lee Harvey Oswald's?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sufficiently familiar. I can simply compare it with the only other thing I have seen in his printing which is what he wrote down in my diary.

Mr. Jenner. Refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I think it very likely is.

Mr. Jenner. In your short talk with Lee Harvey Oswald on the subject of his having gone to the license application department in Dallas, was anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license or a learner's permit application?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing.

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the date of this document?

Mr. Jenner. If it is dated. My recollection is it is not.

Mrs. Paine. His birthday is on it only. Picked up at his room on the date of the assassination. I guess it was picked up, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Could I review this with you a little bit? Did Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited telephone conversation you had with him, that he had gone to the driver's license application bureau?

Mrs. Paine. No; he told Marina.

Mr. Jenner. And did—he told Marina and then Marina in turn told you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How near the time of the telephone conversation?

Mrs. Paine. She told me immediately.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina tell you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She just turned from the phone and told you at once?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. This was spontaneous?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It may have been while she was still on the phone, I don't recall, but it certainly was immediate.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, to answer your question the document is not dated.

Representative Ford. I was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; this is so.

Mrs. Paine. This is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission what your impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the period of time that you had known him?

Mrs. Paine. When I first met him he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. And had expressed himself as liking his work. I gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising layout, develop a photographic process.

When we arrived at New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working. I saw no writing on the outside of the building. He said—no, first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of work.

Representative Ford. Work in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. He called to us in Dallas from New Orleans to say he was doing such work.

Mr. Jenner. In New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Subsequently, I have heard it is not so, but this is what he told Marina and she told me over the phone. He said, and she told me immediately over the phone, that he was getting $1.50 an hour instead of $1.25 he had been getting, and then in New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the French Quarter, but a big large brick building with no particular designation on it. I don't know what sort of building it was, but he said it was the photo outfit where he was working then.

When he was looking for a job he said, now, in October, early October, he came back to the Dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, whatever it was. But that he was pleased to get any job that would produce an income.

Mr. Dulles. For the Commission's information, Mr. Jenner, is this not, that is Exhibit No. 426, a form which Lee Oswald apparently took home, or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was never sworn to and is not signed.

Mr. Jenner. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. It is not a completed document. It has no date on it.

Mr. Jenner. It is my information and there will be testimony and that is why I didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among his effects in his room on Beckley Street. With permission, I might describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the interest and the question. At the top of the document under name there is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "Application for Texas Driver's License."

Mrs. Paine. May I interrupt?

(Whereupon, at 12:45 o'clock the President's Commission recessed.)