TESTIMONY OF CECIL J. McWATTERS (continued 2)

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.

Representative Ford. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side?

Mr. McWatters. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in traffic.

Mr. Ball. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer.

Does that have any significance?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than—all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.

When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.

Mr. Ball. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. Ball. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?

Mr. McWatters. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?

Mr. McWatters. Not that I recall.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved?

Did you see that or anything like that?

Mr. McWatters. No, I don't recall.

Mr. Ball. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the Oak Cliff area some place?

Mr. McWatters. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall where any of them got off.

Mr. Ball. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe?

Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWatters. I really don't—I really can't recall whether I did or not.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

Senator Cooper. I would like to ask a few, if I may.

Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?

Mr. McWatters. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas all run east and west.

Senator Cooper. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned south?

Mr. McWatters. I turned south, that is correct.

Senator Cooper. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWatters. Well——

Senator Cooper. I mean does it pass it directly?

Mr. McWatters. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on the opposite corner.

Senator Cooper. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWatters. You mean—yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get down to there.

Senator Cooper. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22——

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Which has been referred to in the testimony.

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Senator Cooper. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed Lamar Street?

Mr. McWatters. It would have been after I passed Lamar.

Senator Cooper. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of the testimony——

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man—you asked her then to speak to the man behind her.

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Senator Cooper. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed Elm Street?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; that is right.

Senator Cooper. Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?

Mr. McWatters. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator Cooper. What was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm Street?

Mr. McWatters. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words——

Senator Cooper. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus?

Mr. McWatters. That is what I say, it just didn't—it just doesn't register, I don't know.

Senator Cooper. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus?

Mr. McWatters. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator Cooper. When was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy Street and got off at Elm?

Mr. McWatters. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I hadn't thought of and everything.

Senator Cooper. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any transfer?

Mr. McWatters. No, I don't—no.

Senator Cooper. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?

Mr. McWatters. I guess that would probably be——

Senator Cooper. Another man?

Mr. McWatters. That would probably be the reason.

I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.

Senator Cooper. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?

Mr. McWatters. Do you mean the day?

Senator Cooper. A man other than the teenager?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; I picked up a man.

Senator Cooper. Where?

Mr. McWatters. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.

Senator Cooper. Is that near Murphy?

Mr. McWatters. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy.

Senator Cooper. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?

Mr. McWatters. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.

In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there——

Senator Cooper. Did the police ask you if any man other than the teenager was on the bus?

Mr. McWatters. I don't recall whether they did or not.

Senator Cooper. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the window and wanting to get into the bus?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, I believe I did.

Senator Cooper. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?

Mr. McWatters. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it——

Senator Cooper. Does each—does each driver have a different punch?

Mr. Ball. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.

Mr. McWatters. Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are—that is my punch right there—there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when——

Senator Cooper. Do you know whether the punches are different in the shape that they make?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I know——

Senator Cooper. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of these transfer that you recognize your own punch?

Mr. McWatters. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is supposed to be another——

Senator Cooper. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus?

Mr. McWatters. Well, except only where it is punched—in other words, I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have it punched there.

Senator Cooper. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?

Mr. McWatters. I don't recall.

Senator Cooper. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?

Mr. McWatters. Did I ever report it to the police?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. McWatters. No, sir.

Senator Cooper. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir.

Senator Cooper. About this matter?

Mr. McWatters. They have never been back to me. The only time they have talked to me——

Senator Cooper. Did you ever see——

Mr. McWatters. I beg pardon?

Senator Cooper. You saw—was any of the men in the police lineup ever identified to you as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWatters. Any men in the——

Senator Cooper. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir; they never stated anything.

Senator Cooper. Later was he identified to you in any way?

Mr. McWatters. Was he identified to me?

Senator Cooper. As being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWatters. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was ever mentioned while we was back there.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the lineup again—did you ever go back there after that time and see this same person again?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir.

Senator Cooper. Identified as No. 2?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in the afternoon.

Senator Cooper. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWatters. Have I saw them?

Senator Cooper. Yes, sir.

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald——

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWatters. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face—of course, I know him now, distinctly.

Senator Cooper. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWatters. Right now?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. McWatters. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.

Senator Cooper. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point near Murphy?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was——

Senator Cooper. You saw that man get off later?

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Before you got to——

Mr. McWatters. Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar.

Senator Cooper. That is all.

Mr. McWatters. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two transfers. That is the best I can remember.

Mr. Ball. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch there, have you?

Mr. McWatters. Yes.

Mr. Ball. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. It is a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch.

Mr. Ball. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with his list in his office?

Mr. McWatters. That is right.

Mr. Ball. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer?

Mr. McWatters. That is right; that is the way, if they have any complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number.

Mr. Ball. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there.

Mr. Ball. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul—Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You always punch at the end of your destination?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.

Mr. Ball. Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that?

Mr. McWatters. Well, that is on the opposite of town from——

Mr. Ball. The other side is Capital. Where is that?

Mr. McWatters. Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is.

Mr. Ball. Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run?

Mr. McWatters. No, sir; I don't—you mean on the transfer?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. McWatters. Well, that is, in other words, we all—they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have——

Mr. Ball. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would—location punches would you make?

Mr. McWatters. In other words, if I was—Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.

Mr. Ball. Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run?

Mr. McWatters. That is right.

Mr. Ball. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?

Mr. McWatters. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. So you would punch one of those names?

Mr. McWatters. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWatters. Thank you, gentlemen.