Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m.

Mr. McCloy. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover.

We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the assassination.

Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the assassination or its motivation.

I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you.

Mrs. Paine. I would like to affirm.

Mr. McCloy. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. McCloy. Will you state your full name for the record and your address?

Mrs. Paine. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in Irving, Tex.

Mr. McCloy. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination.

Mr. Jenner. Your maiden name?

Mrs. Paine. Is Hyde.

Mr. Jenner. Ruth Avery Hyde.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were born September 3, 1932?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are almost 34 years old.

Mrs. Paine. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September.

Mr. Jenner. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the Unitarian Church at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she is.

Mr. Jenner. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February.

Mr. Jenner. You yourself are a college graduate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Antioch College?

Mrs. Paine. Yellow Springs.

Mr. Jenner. Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You have a brother and sister.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and your sister are your entire family.

Mrs. Paine. My immediate family.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your sister. Are they older than you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, they are.

Mr. Jenner. Which is the elder of the two?

Mrs. Paine. My brother is the oldest.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother is a professional man, is he?

Mrs. Paine. He is a doctor, general practitioner.

Mr. Jenner. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is?

Mrs. Paine. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and just a little bit east of Dayton.

Mr. Jenner. Is your brother married.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, he is.

Mr. Jenner. Does he have a family?

Mrs. Paine. He has four children.

Mr. Jenner. And is your sister married?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she is.

Mr. Jenner. Does she have a family?

Mrs. Paine. She has four children.

Mr. Jenner. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their first marriage?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. And you were married where, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you have mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as Quakers.

Mr. Jenner. You are a Quaker?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. When did you embrace that faith?

Mrs. Paine. I joined in early 1951, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker faith?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; my brother is also a Quaker.

Mr. Jenner. When did he embrace that faith.

Mrs. Paine. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Jenner. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say that occurred?

Mrs. Paine. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he joined.

Mr. Jenner. I was thinking more as to when you said you did.

Mrs. Paine. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of '51.

Mr. Jenner. You were then in college?

Mrs. Paine. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had already attended perhaps 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have been a member of that church?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or that faith?

Mrs. Paine. Or church; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Ever since?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in Philadelphia as soon as you married?

Mrs. Paine. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then when we married I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was living, Paoli, Pa.

Mr. Jenner. His folks live in Paoli, also, do they not?

Mrs. Paine. His mother and stepfather.

Mr. Jenner. And you remained in Paoli until when?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was summer of '59 we were in the process of moving, didn't complete it until fall of '59.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You moved to where?

Mrs. Paine. To Irving, where we are now, to the present address.

Mr. Jenner. To your present home? And that was in the summer of 1959?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At some later stage we will go into what occurred. In the meantime we have you now in Irving, Tex. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband purchased the home you have there before you went down.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the house we have been renting.

Mr. Jenner. So you purchased that and moved in in 1960, is that about right?

Mrs. Paine. We first moved into it in the fall of '59.

Mr. Jenner. You rented it and then purchased it.

Mrs. Paine. The same house; yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right, thank you. You have two children?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. A boy and a girl?

Mrs. Paine. A girl and a boy.

Mr. Jenner. Would you name the oldest of the two.

Mrs. Paine. Sylvia Lynn and the boy—she is now 4. The boy is Christopher and he is 3.

Mr. Jenner. The point I was getting at, your daughter, Sylvia, was born after you reached Texas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what was her birth?

Mrs. Paine. She was born on November 17, '59.

Mr. Jenner. 1959. Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that in a moment.

Mrs. Paine. Okay. I had not met her before that.

Mr. Jenner. At this time you and your husband were living in your present home in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. In '59.

Mr. Jenner. At the time that you met Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No. Michael moved to an apartment in September of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. There had been some strained relations or difficulties between yourself and your husband Michael. When we shake our heads we don't get it on the record.

The answer to that is "Yes"?

Mrs. Paine. Is "No." I had not met her when there had been some strained relations between me and my husband. It is just we are having difficulties with words.

Mr. Jenner. What I was getting at—there had been some strained relations, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Paine had moved to separate quarters. This was in September of 1962, correct.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You met Marina for the first time when.

Mrs. Paine. I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

Mr. Jenner. You were then living with your children in your home at 2515.

Mrs. Paine. West Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex. Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.

Mrs. Paine. I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Glover was and how you became acquainted with him.

What was the milieu?

Mrs. Paine. I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we often had coffee afterward and would talk.

Mr. Jenner. This included your husband, however, did it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes indeed.

Mr. Jenner. You had a common interest in this?

Mrs. Paine. Madrigal singing?

Mr. Jenner. Madrigal singing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And went together.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go.

I went.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, could I interrupt you a moment here. Though your husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you were attending these singing groups?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I saw him perhaps once or twice a week for dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of my married friends.

Mr. Jenner. There was reasonable cordiality?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I don't wish to pry into your private life.

Mrs. Paine. If it is pertinent, go ahead.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, there is some necessity. We might touch a little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. Mr. Glover, is he a single person?

Mrs. Paine. He was at the time of the party. He has been divorced from his wife. He is now remarried.

Mr. Jenner. Now I interrupted you at the point at which you were relating that Mr. Glover had raised with you, I assume this was a telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. He knew of your interest in the study and the learning of the Russian language and its use?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do I correctly summarize it up to the moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You have an entry in your calendar as I recall on this subject. There is a question mark.

Mrs. Paine. I recall it says "Everett?"

Mr. Jenner. May I hand the witness the document?

Mr. McCloy. You may.

Mr. Jenner. This will be Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar.

(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this morning?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. You did.

Mr. Jenner. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who received it from you—he made a notation of the date of receipt—it is all in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And it is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was when you surrendered it?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn to the diary page to which I have reference in connection with the first meeting with Marina Oswald, and that is what month and what page and what date?

Mrs. Paine. It is on the page for February, and the only thing I can——

Mr. McCloy. February what year?

Mrs. Paine. February 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And the day please?

Mrs. Paine. There is a notation on the 22d of February.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, there is a square with the figure 22 in it indicating February 22, 1963. Do you have something written in there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is written in there?

Mrs. Paine. It says "Everett's?"

Mr. Jenner. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. Paine. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain that and how it related to what you are now telling us?

Mrs. Paine. I believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. As I recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might get together a group of people, hence the question mark. Then he called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the invitation definite.

Mr. Jenner. Now you used the expression "I believe." Is that your best recollection at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And I went over this with you this morning and you gave me the same explanation, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now did that event take place?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what is your best recollection as to the day of the month it took place?

Mrs. Paine. I have no other way of guessing when it was except to assume that this notation means it was on the 22d of February.

Mr. Jenner. And that does represent your present best recollection refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right, and of course this first——

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. Paine. That was a Friday.

Mr. Jenner. Friday night. You attended the party did you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. McCloy. I believe you used the word Friday. I don't believe she did, Friday night. You said Friday night.

Mrs. Paine. It was Friday evening.

Mr. Jenner. Friday evening?

Mrs. Paine. The 22d was Friday. I don't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You used the word "evening"?

Mrs. Paine. It was an evening party.

Mr. Jenner. It was held in Mr. Glover's home was it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, it was.

Mr. Jenner. Where is his home?

Mrs. Paine. At that time he was living in the Highland Park section of Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. How far from your home is that?

Mrs. Paine. Half hour drive.

Mr. Jenner. By what means did you get to Mr. Glover's home?

Mrs. Paine. I drove.

Mr. Jenner. You owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the same car still?

Mrs. Paine. It is the same car.

Mr. Jenner. And when you arrived, were either of the Oswalds present?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure I recall accurately. I think they came a little after I arrived.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us your best recollection of all the people, couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I will try. The Oswalds, two were there, Marina and Lee, Everett Glover, the host, Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt who were the friendship link between the Oswalds and Glover.

Mr. Jenner. Could I interrupt you there? Had you known the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. Paine. I had never met them. I have not met them since.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That you ever saw either Mr. or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever with them either before or after this party?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. There was a roommate of Everett's. Dirk, I think, I forget the name.

Mr. Jenner. Are you attempting to recall his first name or his last name?

Mrs. Paine. His first name. I may be wrong. It was a young German fellow.

Mr. Jenner. Schmidt?

Mrs. Paine. Do you know the first name?

Mr. Jenner. No, I don't recall the first name.

Mrs. Paine. And he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, and I don't recall their names.

Mr. Jenner. Was each of them there?

Mrs. Paine. They were both there.

Mr. Jenner. There were two roommates.

Mrs. Paine. Two roommates and they were both present at the party. I should remember their names but I don't.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And there was a couple who lived in Irving; again I don't recall the name. I don't believe I have seen any of these people since with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again I don't recall the name.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the roommate the second——

Mrs. Paine. I may have seen him since. All these people were new to me when I came to the party with the exception of Everett.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the roommate the second time before or after November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, it was before.

Mr. Jenner. But it is a fact that none of these people who were at the party other than Mr. Glover had you seen or heard of?

Mrs. Paine. Before.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time that the party was held.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Have you exhausted your present recollection as to the people who were present on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. I can't get a name. The couple were living in Irving, I recall that, but I don't—I have forgotten their name.

Mr. Jenner. Now the Oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at least after you arrived?

Mrs. Paine. I believe they came with the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Jenner. And you were introduced, were you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I was introduced.

Mr. Jenner. By whom?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. It was a very informal gathering. Marina was wearing slacks and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt also was. I doubt pains were taken with the introductions.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Mrs. Paine. I doubt any pains were taken with the introductions.

Mr. Jenner. How long did the party proceed?

Mrs. Paine. It must have started something after 8 o'clock and went until towards midnight.

Mr. Jenner. You have an interest in square dancing and that sort of thing also. Did you do any of that then?

Mrs. Paine. No. We talked and ate.

Mr. Jenner. Did you do any madrigal singing?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No singing that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now before I get to any specificity with respect to Marina and Lee Oswald, was Russian spoken that night by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Who else at the party had some facility with Russian in addition to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Just the De Mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself.

Mr. Jenner. And yourself. Did you mention that Mr. Glover had some interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. No, I don't believe he does.

Mr. Jenner. He did not, all right. Were the Oswalds really the center of attention that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a single center for the entire evening. It wasn't like being invited to hear what he had to say. It was much more informal than that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you converse with her during the course of the evening?

Mrs. Paine. Very briefly. She spent the first part of the evening trying to get June to go to sleep.

Mr. Jenner. June is her daughter?

Mrs. Paine. The little girl with her.

Mr. Jenner. She brought her daughter with her did she?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, Marina and I.

Mr. Jenner. And what subject did you ladies pursue?

Mrs. Paine. I really can't remember. The actual conversation with Marina didn't cover much time at all. I saw very little of her that evening.

Mr. Jenner. That evening?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. What subjects were discussed, I assume in the living room or—where everybody was gathered? Do you recall what was being pursued there in the way of conversation.

Mrs. Paine. Part of the time Lee talked with people who were asking him about his trip to Russia. I believe Everett had told me that he had been, so I knew that when I arrived. And the fact that he had gone intending to become a citizen in the Soviet Union. He talked freely and with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people around him.

Mr. Jenner. Were you gathered in that group?

Mrs. Paine. Part of the time at least I was listening to that. He spoke of the things about the Soviet Union that had displeased him, as for instance the censorship. He knew that it had been going on regarding his letters.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have a little trouble testifying. If you will give us examples such as you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the conversation about his going to Russia. During the course of that subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he went to Russia? May I have a yes or no first?

Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. Paine. I can't be certain that this is when I first got an idea about why he wanted to go or whether I learned this later.

Mr. Jenner. Does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair possibility that—it is important to us—was the subject discussed at that gathering?

Mrs. Paine. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. And that is your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you give us your best recollection of what he said or what Marina said, but primarily what Mr. Oswald said on that subject. Why did he go to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I carry the impression, and I think it is recalled from this evening——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. When you say you carry the impression you are saying "It is my present recollection."

Mrs. Paine. All right. That he spoke of himself as a Marxist that evening, that he had read certain Marxist books and thought that the Soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the Soviet Union and live there.

Mr. Jenner. What response was elicited from others at the meeting, agreement?

Mrs. Paine. No; I would not say there was any agreement. People were interested. This is an unusual thing to do. And they were interested in hearing how he found Soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was pleased or disappointed.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to tell the members of the Commission what Mr. Oswald said in those respects, to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. He mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or at least he commented on it in a way that I took as unfavorable.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Ma'am.

Did he say he was——

Mrs. Paine. What had happened, yes.

Mr. Jenner. What censorship is he talking about?

Mrs. Paine. He referred to a letter that had been sent to him by Robert Oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the United States, had been sent. He had not received it. He judged that they had simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that censorship is more obvious.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go on.

Mrs. Paine. I wondered, listening to him, whether he really was——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, please. Before we get to what you wondered about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked.

Mrs. Paine. That is all I can think of.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned, also, Mrs. Paine, that there was discussed that evening the subject of his return to America.

Mrs. Paine. Obviously, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why he returned, was that subject discussed?

Mrs. Paine. Not very much, no. I can't recall any specifics relating to that.

Mr. Jenner. All you can recall, I take it, at the moment, is that there was an allusion to the subject?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he was clearly here, yes. He had come back, and—well, I have to put it in terms of what I guess or what I feel was his reaction. I can't give you a specific recall.

Mr. Jenner. We have no objection to your doing that. We would like to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically happened in this instance. How did Mr. Oswald treat or regard—what relationship did you gather existed between Marina and her husband, a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned afterward, but just this initial instance. What impression did you have?

Mrs. Paine. Almost none. There was very little contact between them during the evening. He spoke English to those that were asking them questions. She was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the little baby to go to sleep, or in the kitchen speaking Russian to the De Mohrenschildts. I listened more than I spoke in that situation.

Mr. Jenner. When Mr. Oswald was in the living room with you ladies and gentlemen, the conversation was in English, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, that when Marina returned to the room Russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the Russian language.

Mrs. Paine. When she was in the same room, there was more than one conversation going on, and in two languages.

Mr. Jenner. When anybody spoke to Marina——

Mrs. Paine. It was in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. It was in Russian. When people spoke with each other other than with Marina, it was in English, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in very short compass what was your impression of Mr. Oswald at that initial party?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their questions. He seemed open and forthright. I did wonder as he was talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in the Soviet Union that their system was inferior.

Mr. Jenner. Inferior to ours?

Mrs. Paine. To ours, or whether he still thought that the Soviet system was a better one. His discussion of the censorship made me feel that he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects of the Soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor of the American system. I was left wondering which country he thought conducted itself better.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an interest in the Oswalds at this moment wholly apart from your interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were you intellectually curious about them is all I meant.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes. Well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he took.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, Mrs. Paine, of the fact that Mr. Oswald was at least—there had been publications of his having been a defector?

Mrs. Paine. No; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first learn of that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the Soviet Union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so I could well have assumed that there had been such, but I really didn't learn about it until after the assassination, I guess. No; I take it back.

There was a reference now.

Mr. Jenner. That evening?

Mrs. Paine. Specific recall. It is coming. The content of Robert's letter to him, as I recall, included a clipping from the Fort Worth newspapers relative to his defection.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, you are talking about a letter of Robert Oswald's?

Mrs. Paine. A letter from Robert to Lee which Lee never got but heard about when he came back to the States.

Mr. Jenner. And that was the subject of discussion that evening?

Mrs. Paine. That came up, so, therefore, I did know that he had been called a defector.

Mr. Jenner. Did Robert refer to this letter or did someone in the meeting refer to the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship.

Mr. Jenner. But up until that moment, you had not had any prior impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an attempted defector?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I think, yes; I had some impression of that sort, but it came directly from Lee. He said he went to the Soviet Union and tried to give up his American citizenship, and as I recall, he said that the American embassy did not relinquish his passport, and, therefore, he was not eligible to get Soviet citizenship.

Mr. Jenner. You are remembering more now.

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. I am pleased that you are, Mrs. Paine. He did discuss his attempts to obtain——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. To surrender his passport and to accomplish his Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that was openly discussed in this gathering?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. This is Senator Cooper, a member of the Commission, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. How do you do?

Mr. Jenner. This party, I gather, lasted approximately from 7 to 12, did you say?

Mrs. Paine. Eight to eleven-thirty or twelve.

Mr. Jenner. And the party broke up, and you went home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was your overall impression of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I had very little impression altogether. I did ask for her address.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you do that?

Mrs. Paine. And I asked if I could write her. I wanted to go visit her at her home.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Paine. To talk Russian. She is very hard to find, a person speaking modern Russian, and in fact I know of no other, and this was an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather unusual opportunity, and I was interested in meeting her and getting to know her.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I will go back and develop this lady's interest in the Russian language during the course of the examination, and her prior study of the language up to this point. She did have an abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but I wanted to get at the initial meeting first before anything further.

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. You say modern Russian, that Marina Oswald had a command of modern Russian. Would you please explain to us what you mean by that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I am not in a position to judge a person, whether a person is speaking modern Russian or not. My language is not that good, but she talked with—this was later, I only assumed that she had—I hoped that she spoke good Russian. I didn't know at that time whether she spoke educated Russian or not. Shall I jump ahead?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wish you wouldn't. You meant, then, by your expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; right.

Mr. Jenner. And if she did, that then you might profit or learn from her educated Russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that time? That was your main interest at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Aside from interests in another lady or human being under those circumstances?

Mrs. Paine. Well, until I then got to know her it was my only interest.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. That is the point I was seeking to make. Did you become better acquainted with the Oswalds thereafter?

Mrs. Paine. I met——

Mr. Jenner. Did you, first, yes or no?

Mrs. Paine. I became better acquainted with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, if members of the Commission—I am going to pass from this initial event—if you have any questions you would like to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it.

Mr. McCloy. Are there any questions?

The Chairman. Not for me.

Representative Ford. Not at this point.

Senator Cooper. No.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask one? Did Oswald, Lee Oswald on this occasion express any dislike for any elements or aspects of American society?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall anything specific that was said.

Mr. McCloy. He did not indicate to this group why it was that he left the United States to go to Russia originally?

Mrs. Paine. It is hard to say how I formed this opinion, but I gathered that he disapproved of the economic system.

Mr. McCloy. Was there anything more specific than that that he referred to? Did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals?

Mrs. Paine. Individuals? No; I am certain there was none.

Mr. McCloy. In government or out of government?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Your impression was that he was motivated to go to the Soviet Union because he didn't like the capitalist system?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. McCloy. And had an affinity for what might be called the Marxist system, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. McCloy. That is all the questions that I have.

Mr. Jenner. Along those lines, Mrs. Paine, did he make any remarks with respect to workers in Russia as compared with the position, the economic position of workers in America? Did he refer to workers as a subject?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to refresh your recollection. You said economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in Russia. I wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather than the overall system.

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember.

Representative Ford. How well did Marina speak English at the time you made the first acquaintance or first contact?

Mrs. Paine. I was under the impression she spoke no English at all.

Representative Ford. Did she appear to understand any English at that time?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe she understood much of anything.

Mr. Jenner. That was your definite impression?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear her speak any English words that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper?

Senator Cooper. I believe you said a few minutes ago that you were interested in knowing why Lee Oswald left the United States and went to Russia. Did you say that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I don't recall saying it. I suppose I was curious.

Mr. McCloy. I don't recall that she actually said that. She said it was an interesting situation.

Mrs. Paine. It was unusual, I think I probably said.

Mr. McCloy. She used the word unusual.

Mrs. Paine. An unusual thing to do, certainly.

Senator Cooper. I don't want to say that you said something you didn't, but I got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the United States and gone to Russia.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. In some sense?

Mrs. Paine. Not in any sense whatever.

Mr. McCloy. As I recall it she did say that this was an unusual situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. This is Mr. Dulles, a member of the Commission.

Senator Cooper. Maybe I could put it this way. Perhaps we could read back and find out, but I thought that you intimated or indicated that you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to Russia.

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps I can answer your question——

Senator Cooper. And it provoked your interest.

Mrs. Paine. I can answer it this way. I was interested at the party to hear something of what he had to say. I was hopeful when I wrote and inquired if I could see Marina where they lived; and knowing that he would be at work, that I would try to go during the week when I would have a chance simply to talk with her.

Senator Cooper. That night he did say that he did not like the capitalist system?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Senator Cooper. Were you interested, then, in finding out what it was about it he didn't like?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. In reference to his experience in Russia or for any other reason?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. You didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his reasons for not liking the capitalist system?

Mrs. Paine. No. Of course, it is a rather short space of time we are talking about, perhaps 45 minutes or so or less. People were inquiring of him.

Mr. Jenner. But others did inquire on these subjects?

Mrs. Paine. For the most part the other people asked questions, yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the subject that Senator Cooper has inquired about, is that true?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, was this roommate of whom you speak named Volkmar Schmidt?

Mrs. Paine. Volkmar sounds familiar.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a couple by the name of Richard Pierce, or a gentleman at least by the name of Richard Pierce who attended that meeting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was single, Richard Pierce.

Mr. Jenner. Was there not present a Miss Betty MacDonald?

Mrs. Paine. Which I had completely forgotten about, yes; there was.

Mr. Jenner. And you still are unable to recall the name of the other couple?

Mrs. Paine. I am unable to. Betty MacDonald I do recall lives in the same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long German sort of name, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Had you become acquainted with Mr. Glover through your husband?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you might say so. We both became interested in going to madrigal sings at the same time. My interest in madrigals was developed by Michael, but that was before we ever moved to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Were you teaching Russian at this time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You were not? Had you done any teaching of Russian prior to this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You subsequently did some teaching; have you done some teaching of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Just this past summer.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I will get to that in due course. Did you do some translating that evening for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. I spoke to her very little. I was embarrassed to.

Mr. Jenner. Why was that?

Mrs. Paine. Because my Russian was so poor, and the De Mohrenschildts could both do it all so much better.

Mr. Jenner. Was Mr. Oswald's command of Russian very good, also?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't hear him speak Russian that night at all.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, is that so?

Mrs. Paine. He may have, but I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. He did no translating?

Mrs. Paine. No. For her, no.

Mr. Jenner. For Marina. And on no occasion—he sat there and on none of the occasions did he translate, but, rather, Mr. De Mohrenschildt did the translating?

Mrs. Paine. I don't even believe that was translating. They would address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was going on from these three or four around him.

Mr. Jenner. So that those who did not understand Russian got nothing from it?

Mrs. Paine. Those who did not understand English got nothing from what he was saying—is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way?

Mr. Jenner. If no one interpreted her in English, translated for her.

Mrs. Paine. No one understood it; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then whose who didn't understand Russian——

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did not understand what she was saying?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And that went on through the entire evening?

Mrs. Paine. You must understand she was not present for, I would say, more than half of the evening. She was just with her child.

Mr. Jenner. But while she was present.

Mrs. Paine. There was no translation done for her benefit.

Mr. Jenner. Or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand Russian?

Mrs. Paine. The other way; no. It is a long time ago.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes. Was anything the subject that evening of Mrs. Oswald's family background? Was that discussed?

Mrs. Paine. Of Marina's?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing.

Mr. Jenner. It was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the fact that she was in Russia, she had been educated as, and was, a pharmacist?

Mrs. Paine. That might have been said. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What was your reaction to the De Mohrenschildts that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I had heard from Everett that they were interesting people, that they had gone on a hiking tour through Mexico taking pictures as they went. I learned or had known from Everett, also, in this one telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward Marina in the sense of wanting her to understand what was—wanting to talk with her, to include her. Mr. De Mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in English.

Mr. Jenner. His speaking of his past life was in English?

Mrs. Paine. Was in English. I recalled to him his first wife who was also a Quaker. I remember he said that.

Mr. Jenner. When was your next contact with either Marina Oswald or Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote a letter, a note to Marina at the address I had been given, and got a note back saying, "We have moved. This is the new address. Come in perhaps a week." From that time. She wanted to get the house cleaned up before I came.

Mr. Jenner. They lived in Dallas, did they not?

Mrs. Paine. That was in Dallas; yes.

Mr. Jenner. On this February 22 occasion they were then living on Neely Street in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I believe they moved just in that period that I had the previous address, and as soon as I wrote, the first letter I got back gave the Neely Street address.

Mr. Jenner. You have recorded that, have you not, in your address book?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which I will follow up in a moment. Do you have a copy of the letter that you wrote to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No. That initial letter asking if I could come over? I don't believe I do.

Mr. Jenner. Not having——

Mrs. Paine. I have her reply.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a reply?

Mrs. Paine. I have her reply.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have it with you?

Mrs. Paine. She drew a map. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. May I have it, please?

Mrs. Paine. Do you want it right now?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. All right. Wait—no; perhaps I have it at the hotel. I don't think it is here. I didn't think I would be before the Commission today at all.

Mr. Jenner. We will pass that. You can get it tonight.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I am certain I have it.

Mr. Dulles. That was written in Russian, I assume.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad Russian.

Mr. Jenner. As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place approximately when?

Mrs. Paine. It was early March some time.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to her home or did she come to yours?

Mrs. Paine. I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to her home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my summary?

Mrs. Paine. She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have her response to your letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is what I have.

Mr. Jenner. In the hotel. We will get that this evening. Was Mr. Oswald home when you visited her?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. On the next occasion?

Mrs. Paine. He was not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make a description in your calendar with respect to this visit?

Mrs. Paine. I judge not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you find any in your calendar?

Mrs. Paine. With respect to this visit?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 401 the document that has been given that exhibit number.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 401, was received in evidence.)

Representative Ford. What time of day was this visit, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. It was midmorning, up to lunchtime. She had hoped I could stay through lunch but I wanted to get back so my children could have naps.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anybody at home to care for your children when you made this visit?

Mrs. Paine. I took them.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, you took them.

Mrs. Paine. Therefore, I wanted to get them home to take naps.

Mr. Jenner. What is the driving time from your home in Irving——

Mrs. Paine. Thirty-five to forty minutes.

Mr. Jenner. To the Neely Street address of the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it—or was Mr. Oswald home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Just Marina? And that visit—tell us about that visit, please.

Mrs. Paine. I fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that occurred in March.

Mr. Jenner. It might be a good idea, then,—go ahead and tell us about them in a melded form.

Mrs. Paine. All right. I recall we walked out to a nearby park.

Mr. Dulles. In both cases?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure.

Mr. Dulles. You think so?

Mrs. Paine. Anyway, I recall walking to the park, and I think this was the first visit, and we sat and talked. It was warm weather, March, in Dallas. And the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk about it among the Russian community.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Had anything been said on that subject when you first met Marina Oswald the night of February 22?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing? This was your first notice of that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you not—would you repeat that, please?

Mrs. Paine. She told me that she was expecting a child.

Mr. Jenner. She told you not to do what?

Mrs. Paine. Not to tell members of the Russian-speaking community in Dallas. She preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak.

Mr. Jenner. Were you in contact with the Russian-speaking community in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say that to her on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it is a contact I could have had. It was reasonable for her to assume I might be.

Mr. Jenner. But you said nothing in response to that. Did you reassure her?

Mrs. Paine. I just said I wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her to make such an announcement when she felt like it.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask a question at this point?

You said Lee Oswald was not there. A little earlier in your testimony you said you hoped he would not be there.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. McCloy. Why did you say that? Was it because you took any dislike to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive contact with Marina, or both?

Mrs. Paine. I certainly wanted to make the contact with Marina. She had not appeared as a person at all at the party. I couldn't tell what sort of person she was, and I felt meeting alone with her would make an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of person she was.

Mr. McCloy. Go on. Did you have any further motivation for that wish? Did you take any dislike to him?

Mrs. Paine. Not an active dislike, but I didn't like him. I think we can say that.

Mr. Jenner. And you gathered that impression the evening of February 22?

Mrs. Paine. It is very hard to know whether I gathered it then or in terms of things she told me then after we met, and I will outline them.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; we will get into those.

Mrs. Paine. I would say it was more formed later.

Mr. Jenner. And in your responding to Mr. McCloy's question you were attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the meantime, am I correct about that?

Mrs. Paine. I tried to.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your ability. Tell us a little more, then, to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said in the park on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I recall that we talked, and, as I said, it may be the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded in my mind. She said that she was expecting a baby. She said that Lee didn't want her to learn English. He was not encouraging her to learn English or helping her with it, that he spoke only Russian to her and to their baby June. And she told me—now, let me say that my calendar does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was the second visit.

Mr. Jenner. I suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. Now I wish you would keep these apart for the moment.

Mrs. Paine. So far as I can.

Mr. Jenner. And stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust your recollection.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I was impressed, talking with her in the park, with what I felt to be her need to have a friend. This was virtually our first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want generally known among the Russian segment.

Mr. Jenner. That was her pregnancy?

Mrs. Paine. Of Dallas. She inquired of me, a young woman, about birth control methods, and she said that she felt—well, clearly this pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course.

Mr. Jenner. Have you exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. That is all I recall; yes.

I do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well have been the next time, that she told me that——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. Paine. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to stick with this. When Mrs. Oswald, this is your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not wish her to acquire any command of the English language, what did you say? Did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? Didn't that seem curious to you?

Mrs. Paine. I likely said that——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. It is best you don't guess.

Give us your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that she did most of the talking because she could. My Russian was bad enough that if she talked I was happy.

Mr. Jenner. Did you feel any embarrassment because you were——

Mrs. Paine. Oh, a terrible embarrassment.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mrs. Paine. It is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would elaborate on that because I am sure the members of the Commission would like to have your mental reaction to what you thought was your limited command of the Russian language and whether it interfered with communication between you.

Mrs. Paine. It interfered very markedly.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate?

Mrs. Paine. I could think of many more things to say than I could think of the words to use in order to say it in Russian. I want to keep jumping ahead to illustrate this. But just it was very difficult for me to communicate.

I understand much more readily than I speak, so that I could understand what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see that she used small words and made herself understood.

But it was very difficult for me just to speak. I could not possibly have reacted to her as I would to someone else in English, as I would if she had been speaking English.

Mr. Dulles. At this time you felt that she could not gain very much if you talked to her in English?

Mrs. Paine. I was certain of that, yes.

Mr. Dulles. But later she had improved, apparently?

Mrs. Paine. After the assassination, to my knowledge.

Mr. Dulles. That was after the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I never knew her to speak English at all.

Mr. Dulles. Or to understand?

I wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it.

Mrs. Paine. Well, she said to me in November that she has changed from never listening to an English conversation to giving it some of her attention because she is able to pick up some words. You know how if you don't understand anything there is no point even——

Mr. Dulles. I personally got the impression when she was here that she understood a good deal of English.

Mrs. Paine. I believe she does, yes.

Mr. Dulles. But this time she did not have that facility at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you not think it was curious that her husband was adverse to her acquiring some facility with the English language?

Mrs. Paine. I thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part, even cruel.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in your limited command of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was saying about it, agree with what she was saying.

Mr. Jenner. Which was what?

Mrs. Paine. Which is that this wasn't the way it should be and I certainly agreed.

Mr. Jenner. She complained, did she?

Mrs. Paine. She complained, yes.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some facility?

Mrs. Paine. Not against his wishes, no. She didn't express an interest. In learning English through me, for instance.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. She showed no interest unlike the interest you had in her helping you with Russian, she showed no interest at that moment in learning from you some command of the English language?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now you think the second occasion occurring in your calendar entry there was possibly March 20?

Mr. Jenner. And what is the entry?

Mrs. Paine. It says, "Marina".

Mr. Jenner. And that is the only word?

Mrs. Paine. That is all it says.

Mr. Jenner. In that square?

Mrs. Paine. Probably I went again to her home.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Does that refresh your recollection as to anything on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It does not?

Mrs. Paine. I am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. I think I went to her home twice before I carried her from her place to my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was 35 or 40 minutes each way, going twice in one day.

Mr. Jenner. You say carry?

Mrs. Paine. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a car.

Senator Cooper. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. You take some person some place you carry them.

Mrs. Paine. You carry them; yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is an odd expression to me.

Mrs. Paine. I have been in Texas longer than I think.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited her.

Mrs. Paine. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion of the day at my home, and I then took her back.

Mr. Jenner. This was at your invitation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; surely.

Mr. Jenner. Had you by this time—let us take the March 20 affair, occasion—had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As a person?

Mrs. Paine. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the first I met her.

Mr. Jenner. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion?

The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home?

Mrs. Paine. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back.

Mr. Jenner. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not?

Mrs. Paine. This was still in March.

Mr. Jenner. She did?

Mrs. Paine. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please relate it?

Mrs. Paine. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to go back, told her, perhaps, to go back.

Mr. Jenner. State just as accurately——

Mrs. Paine. As she described it I felt——

Mr. Jenner. Just what she said now, please.

Mrs. Paine. He told her he wanted to send her back with June.

Mr. Jenner. Alone?

Mrs. Paine. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that meant——

Mr. Jenner. Please——

Mrs. Paine. A divorce——

Mr. Jenner. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she said, if you can.

Mrs. Paine. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter stood at that time.

Mr. Jenner. She had not answered the letter?

Mrs. Paine. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it.

Mr. Dulles. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the Soviet Embassy to her husband?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't say.

Mr. Jenner. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that she thought that meant a divorce?

Mrs. Paine. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of the marriage for them, but not legally done.

Mr. Jenner. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to that?

Mrs. Paine. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving the United States that she was opposed to.

Mr. Jenner. She wanted to stay here, did she?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; very much so.

Mr. Jenner. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view other than that one of wanting to remain in America?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. What did she? Was she affirmative about it?

Mrs. Paine. Very.

Mr. Jenner. Of wanting to stay in this country?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. Did it elicit some curiosity from you?

Mrs. Paine. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss it with her?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a letter, really, to gather——

Mr. Jenner. Do you have it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent.

Mr. Jenner. Is that also at the hotel?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this letter is dated the 7th of April.

Mr. Jenner. The 7th of April?

Mrs. Paine. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked "never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried it once to the apartment so that if——

Mr. Jenner. To what apartment?

Mrs. Paine. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it.

Mr. McCloy. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it to her?

Mrs. Paine. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or I wouldn't recall what it said, but——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see if you have the letter in your bag.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion of this correspondence, and I would rather—no, it is not here—go at it—there are several things I want to say about it. I began to mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole afternoon to talk more.

Mr. Jenner. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. You will have time tonight?

Mr. Jenner. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand?

Mrs. Paine. It is not here. It is at the hotel.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to return to something else for the moment, then, first.

What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband wished her to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't say.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No explanation?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I meant by that last question to imply that there might have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, if any?

Mrs. Paine. She never stated any reasons.

Mr. Jenner. Never?

Mrs. Paine. She implied that it was because he didn't want her.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't what?

Mrs. Paine. Want her.

Mr. Jenner. What is the date of this letter, April 7?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. We will take a brief recess.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry?

Mrs. Paine. Regarding the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. Regarding the Oswalds.

Mrs. Paine. It is April 2, Tuesday.

Mr. Jenner. What is the entry?

Mrs. Paine. "Marina and Lee dinner."

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the point at which you invited them to your home for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to come to dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you have stated several times, and now you state you inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part to invite a man's wife to come to live with you?

Mrs. Paine. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous.

Mr. Jenner. Beg pardon?

Mrs. Paine. Presumptuous in relation to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. In relation to Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, and thought he might be very offended.

Mr. Jenner. It is possible he might very well be.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I didn't think anything about that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on this score?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. As a man of temper?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Violence?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None of that?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had met him once.

Mr. Jenner. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. Paine. Tuesday.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Well, Michael picked them up.

Mr. Jenner. Who did?

Mrs. Paine. Michael picked them up.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband?

Mrs. Paine. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It didn't come up?

Mr. Jenner. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking with you.

Mrs. Paine. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression into the record somewhere if he hasn't already.

Representative Ford. I think it would be helpful if you gave your impression of his impression.

Mr. Jenner. Of his impression.

Mrs. Paine. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much.

Mr. Jenner. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said to you after the assassination.

Mrs. Paine. You still want it?

Representative Ford. I think it is important.

Mr. Dulles. Let us hear it.

Mrs. Paine. He said—you must understand, that not living together we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless.

Mr. Dulles. What did you do? That was about a half hour—what did you do during that period?

Mrs. Paine. I was at the house preparing the dinner.

Mr. Dulles. You were at home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do not know what was said then between the two of them.

Mr. Jenner. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you probably have something on that.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression? I want your impression of how your husband got along.

Mrs. Paine. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step.

Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of morality was very different from Michael's.

Mr. Jenner. In what respect, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Michael recalls having—now, this is later. This is not that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of Michael's impression of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. I wanted his initial impression.

Mrs. Paine. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have gone considerably past it, in fact.

Mr. Jenner. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this moment, that is, up to April 2?

Mrs. Paine. It was two or three times besides the initial party in February.

Mr. Jenner. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, pleasant evening, and that was about all?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had contact with either of the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth which has an arrow going to the eleventh.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, the physical condition, of your calendar there?

Mrs. Paine. Physical?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written something.

Mrs. Paine. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, it seems.

Mr. Jenner. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10.

Mrs. Paine. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a notation "Marina".

Mr. Jenner. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. Paine. That is all that is in that square.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from it pointing, to April 11.

Mr. Jenner. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was prearranged and what the occasion was?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to get together. Whether we did I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting?

Mrs. Paine. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you prepared dated April 7, which is the day before?

Mrs. Paine. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it.

Mr. Jenner. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in any respect, does not stimulate your recollection?

Representative Ford. At the time of the dinner at your home on April 2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recollect any such discussion.

Representative Ford. That night?

Mrs. Paine. If there was any it would have had to have been in the living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I didn't hear any reference to it.

Representative Ford. You didn't hear any discussion that evening between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any such discussion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was later.

Representative Ford. That was later. Do you recall when?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th.

Representative Ford. That was October 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. And this was April 2d?

Mrs. Paine. 1963.

Representative Ford. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that day?

Mrs. Paine. No; none that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Do you subscribe to a newspaper?

Mrs. Paine. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper.

Mr. Jenner. Is that an evening or a morning paper?

Mrs. Paine. At that time it was a morning paper.

Mr. Jenner. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before?

Mrs. Paine. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I must have heard it.

Mr. Jenner. You have a television and a radio?

Mrs. Paine. We get news from the television.

Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th?

Mrs. Paine. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar.

Mr. Jenner. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall; I just don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. You just don't have any present recollection that you did see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no—you are blank?

Mrs. Paine. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her apartment?

Mrs. Paine. I don't even know that.

Mr. Dulles. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth?

Mrs. Paine. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it is very difficult to know.

Mr. Dulles. I see. But you think—have you had a recollection about seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the subject of the General Walker incident?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work.

Mr. Jenner. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing?

Mrs. Paine. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a picnic on the 20th of April.

Mr. Jenner. Had she told you——

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her.

Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the 11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention was arrested by her being upset or disturbed?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In any fashion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16, "St. Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend?

Mrs. Paine. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an Easter—my children are preschool age.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of your making that entry?

Mrs. Paine. I probably wanted to visit the class.

Mr. Jenner. What class?

Mrs. Paine. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School.

Mr. Jenner. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching?

Mrs. Paine. So I probably wanted to visit—no, just any language class there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out——

Mrs. Paine. I believe that is the 7.

Mr. Jenner. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing.

Mr. Jenner. About his job?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call off a get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April.

Mr. Jenner. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. Jenner. There is one entry that is in his handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Give us the letter page of that, will you?

Mrs. Paine. The letter page, "O" for Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your handwriting; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Did we go over it? What did I say?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, we did this morning.

Mrs. Paine. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this morning? I will have to look it over again.

Mr. Jenner. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone else to.

Mr. Jenner. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was when you gave it to the police?

Mrs. Paine. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition except it has been through the finger-printing process.

Mr. Jenner. I am particularly interested——

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is all in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in the same condition now as it was when it was——

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these?

Mrs. Paine. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"?

Mr. Dulles. That is correct; yes.

Mr. Jenner. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book made by Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit 401.

Mr. McCloy. Where is that——

Mr. Jenner. 402 rather. That is the address book.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote——

Mrs. Paine. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number.

Mr. Jenner. I take it they did not have a telephone?

Mrs. Paine. They did not; no.

Mr. Jenner. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. No; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not?

Mrs. Paine. They did not.

(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had seen Lee——

Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you see him?

Mrs. Paine. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park near where they lived on Neely Street.

Mr. Jenner. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between?

Mrs. Paine. Did you say between the 2d——

Mr. Jenner. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th.

Mrs. Paine. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. So far as I know, no.

Mr. Jenner. How did you communicate with her about the picnic?

Mrs. Paine. Probably by letter.

Mr. Jenner. By a letter. Do you have that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have—I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note.

Mr. Jenner. Could I look at that correspondence this evening?

Mrs. Paine. At the same time.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary 7:15." What is the significance of that?

Mrs. Paine. That is probably going out in the evening. It had no relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group—7:15 Miss Mary," who is a babysitter.

Mr. Jenner. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been at the picnic?

Mrs. Paine. At the picnic?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat when it was time to, and complained about the food.

Mr. Jenner. Did he complain about the food?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was your husband present at this picnic?

Mrs. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Dulles. Did you supply the food?

Mrs. Paine. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who would clean it.

Representative Ford. Who did clean it?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I left about that time.

Mr. Jenner. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with him other than some pleasantries?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry.

Mr. Dulles. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic took place in the park——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. What was he doing?

Mrs. Paine. He was way over at the lake fishing.

Mr. Dulles. He was over fishing at the lake?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian emigré group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness.

Mr. Jenner. Was he out of work at that time or not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he told her.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or from Marina?

Mrs. Paine. From her.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say anything in that area?

Mrs. Paine. I judged he had been discharged.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your best recollection of what she said.

Mrs. Paine. Do you want something else?

Mr. Jenner. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall it that closely.

Mr. Jenner. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and Marina." Do you find it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where was that held?

Mrs. Paine. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street.

Mr. Jenner. At their apartment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did it take place?

Mrs. Paine. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a surprise to you?

Mrs. Paine. This was a distinct surprise.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been some communication between you and the Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April?

Mrs. Paine. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any visit with Marina between the 20th of April and the 24th?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What time of day did you arrive, or night?

Mrs. Paine. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10.

Mr. Jenner. And then you found him packed or packing to leave?

Mrs. Paine. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he said he had not been able to——

Mr. Jenner. What he said to you is what I am interested in.

Mrs. Paine. That he said——

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he had been born.