TESTIMONY OF FORREST V. SORRELS (continued 2)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Sorrels, I call your attention to the fact that on the exhibit which has been identified as Commission Document 354, as to which you have already testified, there is no mention of the names of the officers who were present, and that is dated February 3, 1964. Does that help you to recollect whether you then got interested in who those people were and called Batchelor or Curry, or both?

Mr. Sorrels. It probably brought it to my mind that there were other people present there, and I think I so informed Mr. Griffin on the telephone. But that is not what prompted me to make the call about the two uniformed officers, because that had no bearing on what I told Mr. Griffin. What he was asking me over the telephone is what I had heard Ruby say. And I told him what I had heard Ruby say. And he had asked me about certain things that I did not recall hearing Ruby say, and I told him so at the time. And when I was in District Attorney Wade’s office, the question was asked of me by Mr. Wade as to whether or not certain statements alleged to have been made by Ruby were made to Officer Dean in my presence, and I told him I did not hear anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. Well, perhaps another approach would be this: You were interested or became interested sometime in finding out the names of these people. Isn’t that a fact?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; but only for that particular purpose.

Mr. Hubert. And you also wanted to convey the information that you were doubtful whether you would qualify, as you put it, as a witness, because you had failed to warn. And that that thought came into your mind after Wade indicated that you might be a witness.

Mr. Sorrels. That is as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. And that, therefore, you called someone. Now, were those two things in the same conversation?

Mr. Sorrels. You mean about——

Mr. Hubert. The inquiry as to the names, who these people were, and to convey the information that you were worried about your own qualifications if you should be considered.

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You think there were two conversations?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Just one?

Mr. Sorrels. As far as I know there would be one. Because that is the only interest I had. As I recall it, I told Mr. Griffin over the telephone that there were others present, and I could possibly find out who they were, and for that purpose that he was trying to bring out on the telephone conversation, and as I recall it he told me, “No; don’t do that.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you find out who the two people were?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I could not tell you to this day who they are.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, whoever you spoke to, Batchelor or Curry, who said they would let you know——

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t think it was my purpose in finding out who they were for my own benefit. That wasn’t the point at all. It was my thought that they should have information for the district attorney—period.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were not interested in knowing who they were yourself? You wanted them to know of the fact that there were two officers there?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And that you were worried about your own qualifications?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us approximately the lapse of time, if you can remember it, between your conversation with Mr. Griffin and your conversation with either Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry that you have been speaking of?

Mr. Sorrels. Well, I would say it was quite some time afterwards, because this conversation—I don’t remember the date I had it with Mr. Griffin, but it was prior to the writing of this memorandum. And it was quite some time after that that the trial ever started. And when Mr. Wade saw me at the airport and said, “I want to see you and talk to you about this case,” the trial, of course, had not started at that time. So it was quite some time afterwards.

Mr. Hubert. Well, what did Curry or Batchelor, whoever it was, tell you when you told him of this?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, they said they could get the information. That is all that I recall that they said.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when speaking to Wade at the interview whether you adverted to the conversation you had had over the telephone with either Batchelor or Wade, or possibly both?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t recall that that was mentioned.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any other conversation with any officers in the police department? I mean about this aspect that we are talking about now?

Mr. Sorrels. I saw Captain Fritz at the district attorney’s office the day that I was down there and talked to him, and I cannot recall about whether or not there was a conversation with him about who was present at that time or not, because I remember discussing with Captain Fritz at that time that I didn’t think my testimony would be much benefit to the prosecution on that, or if it would be admissible because of the fact I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.

Mr. Hubert. When was that conversation?

Mr. Sorrels. That was the same time I was talking to Mr. Wade at his office. This is when the trial of Ruby was actually in progress.

Mr. Hubert. Was Fritz in the office?

Mr. Sorrels. He was in and out of there. He had walked in and walked out. And I may have mentioned to him that—the fact that there was other officers there besides Dean and myself. And I told Mr. Wade in Dean’s presence that certain things that Mr. Wade had asked me about, about Ruby saying that he had been—I think somebody had been thinking 3 days about shooting this fellow—that I heard no such statement, that I had left when I got the information I wanted. In other words, when I was questioning Ruby, as I recall it, nobody was asking him any questions except me, and when I got through I left.

Mr. Hubert. When did you find out that Dean and Archer had said or were going to say that they heard Ruby say that he had intended to kill him 3 days before?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t know that Archer said that—I don’t remember his name.

Mr. Hubert. Dean—when did you learn that?

Mr. Sorrels. When Mr. Griffin asked me over the telephone if certain statements were made, and I told him, in conversation with him, the statements that Ruby had made to me, and he asked me if certain other statements were made, and I said not to my knowledge, “I don’t remember anything like that,” and one of them was about whether or not Ruby came down the ramp, and I told him at that time I didn’t recall that statement having been made, and I didn’t believe that statement was made in my presence.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you said in the interview with Wade you told him you did not hear Ruby say that he had formed the intent to kill Oswald on Friday.

Mr. Sorrels. No, no.

Mr. Hubert. I am sorry.

Mr. Sorrels. No; I didn’t hear that. Ruby didn’t say that. I told Wade that.

Mr. Hubert. You did tell Wade that? Did Wade ask you that?

Mr. Sorrels. He asked me if certain statements were made, and I told him no, not in my presence.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you had not heard of that even until Wade brought it to your attention?

Mr. Sorrels. No—not that part. The thing that Mr. Griffin was asking me, I think, as I recall it, was about the ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Wade asked you did you hear Ruby say, “I intended to kill him since Friday night,” and your answer was “No; I didn’t.”

Mr. Sorrels. No; I didn’t hear it.

Mr. Hubert. Did Mr. Griffin mention in the telephone conversation he had with you statements allegedly made, or knowledge allegedly in the possession of Dean in regard to what Ruby had said?

Mr. Sorrels. I remember specifically there was a statement about him coming down the ramp. I remember that. And it seems that—I wouldn’t be positive about that, but it seemed like there was something else that Dean was supposed to have said in my presence, and I told him no I didn’t hear anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. I had thought you said that you told Wade that you had not heard Dean say any such thing. But he asked you?

Mr. Sorrels. He asked me. No—you see, he had talked to Dean beforehand, you see, about this. And I never had talked to Dean. As a matter of fact, I had not seen him.

Mr. Smith. I might say it was my impression at one time that Mr. Sorrels said or indicated that in his conversation with Mr. Griffin, this question about Ruby having premeditated this for 3 days came out in this conversation with Griffin. At least I got that impression. But do I understand it now to be clarified that that particular point did not come out in your conversation with Griffin?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t think on the telephone conversation at that time.

Mr. Smith. It came out in your conversation with——

Mr. Sorrels. With Wade.

Mr. Smith. With Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right. But I think—can this be off the record?

Mr. Hubert. I would rather it go on.

Mr. Sorrels. All right. We will have it on the record. I have had other conversations with Mr. Griffin subsequent to that time, and personally when he was there at Dallas, in which I believe that there was some question about that statement. But as I recall it now, the first conversation over the telephone was specifically about the ramp incident. And I remember him emphasizing that. And I recall if such a statement was said I don’t remember it, and I just don’t believe it was said in my presence.

Mr. Hubert. In regard to the conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas, do you recall a conversation which I think I can specifically state would have been on the morning of Wednesday, March 25—that is to say the morning after Dean had been deposed. And let it be noted that Dean was deposed on the night of March 24. Do you remember a conversation with Mr. Griffin about what Dean had said then, and that you then told Mr. Griffin what your version of it was, and had in fact—he asked you to prepare a memorandum or something for him, so that there would be a record of what he had told him?

Mr. Sorrels. Along about this same thing?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, about this same matter, revolving around Dean and Dean’s testimony about what Ruby had said.

Mr. Sorrels. I remember that there was a conversation. It seems like I do have a recollection. It slipped my mind. But since you mention something about a memo—and you left rather suddenly, Mr. Griffin, as I recall it, right after that.

Mr. Hubert. That is on the 27th? The question is—you have not written a memo?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any reason why?

Mr. Sorrels. No. As a matter of fact, it just slipped my mind, I guess, because I cannot recall now just exactly what the memo was. But since he mentioned that, it seems I do recall something about something I told him, and he said, “Write me a memo about it.”

Mr. Hubert. Was Inspector Kelley present during your interrogation of Oswald on Sunday morning for about 15 or 20 minutes, I think you said?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t believe so. He might have been. But I don’t recall that he was there.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have already testified that you and Mr. Kelley went to Mr. Batchelor’s office after Oswald left on Sunday morning.

Mr. Sorrels. It is my recollection that we did go there together.

Mr. Hubert. Was anybody else there?

Mr. Sorrels. If we didn’t, I met him up there.

Mr. Hubert. Was anybody else there?

Mr. Sorrels. At the interview?

Mr. Hubert. No, when you left, when Oswald left to go down to the basement, you testified that you went with somebody, I think it was Tom Kelley—went into Batchelor’s office and looked out to watch the scene.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think that was Tom Kelley there. Was anyone else there?

Mr. Sorrels. There was a number of officers around there.

I don’t recall who all was there. I just don’t recall who all was there.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how many officers or detectives were in Fritz’ office after Ruby had shot Oswald and had been brought up to Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. No, I don’t. There was a number of them around there.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have any recollection that Dean was taken to escort you up to Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, I remember Dean went up the elevator with me.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember any comment that Dean made in Wade’s office?

Mr. Sorrels. The only comment that I can remember that he made is when Mr. Wade asked me if certain things were said by Ruby when I was talking to him in the jail on the morning of November 24, when Dean was there, and I told him no, that that statement was not made in my presence, I did not recall any statement like that. And Dean said, “Well, maybe it was, after you left.” And I said, “Well, if it was—if the statement was made, it would have had to be after I left, because I don’t recall any statement like that.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever find out how Wade or Curry or the police found out about what Dean ultimately said?

Mr. Sorrels. Will you read that question again?

Mr. Hubert. I said, did you ever find out how Wade and/or the police found out themselves what Dean ultimately testified to?

Mr. Sorrels. No, I don’t know anything about that—unless it is in the court records down there in his testimony at the trial. Now, whether or not they had talked to him before what his testimony would be, I could not say about that, I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Did Wade or anyone else ever ask you to identify the two uniformed officers?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever consult with any of your superior officers in your own service in regard to Wade’s request that you testify?

Mr. Sorrels. I told Inspector Kelley that I might get involved in this thing, and he said, “Well, if you are subpenaed you will just have to testify what you know about it.”

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t make a written report?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was FBI Agent Hall present during the Fritz’ interview?

Mr. Sorrels. I couldn’t say. I don’t think I know Agent Hall if he walked in the door. I don’t recall ever having met him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear Ruby say, “You all won’t believe this, but I didn’t have this planned, and I couldn’t have done it better if I had planned it,” or something to that effect?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now——

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t recall any statement like that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Stern is going to take over, and I am going to ask him to handle the identification of your notes.

(Mr. Hubert left. Mr. Stern requested Mr. Griffin to handle the identification of documents.)

Mr. Griffin. Let me state that for the limited purpose of having Agent Sorrels identify three sets of documents I am going to ask a series of questions of Agent Sorrels.

Mr. Sorrels, I want to hand you a Xerox copy of a document which is a part of our files, and numbered Commission No. 354, and is your Secret Service serial 1,007, consisting of four pages, which you have previously identified, and Mr. Hubert has marked “Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6, 1964,” and signed Leon D. Hubert.

I have added the additional designation “Exhibit 1,” on the first page of this four page exhibit. I want you to look at that and tell me if that is in fact the same exhibit you identified previously as I have described it.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification as deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C. This exhibit consists of four different pages which I have numbered consecutively Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D, and purports to be a Xerox copy of notes that you made of the interview that took place with Jack Ruby in Captain Fritz’ office at 3:15 on November 24, 1963.

Would you examine Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D and compare them with the pages of your notebook which you have referred to previously in the deposition, and tell us if that is a true and exact copy of all of the notes that you have that pertain to the 3:15 interview with Jack Ruby?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C., which is a document consisting of three pages, which I have numbered consecutively Exhibit 3-A, Exhibit 3-B, Exhibit 3-C. This exhibit purports to be a Xerox copy of notes that you took at an interview with Jack Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell shortly after Ruby shot Lee Oswald on November 24. I want you to compare these exhibits to pages which you have testified to previously are in your notebook, and tell me if Exhibits 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C are true and exact copies of those pages which appear in your notebook?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, they are. But there is portions that do not pertain to the interview with Ruby in the Dallas City Jail on the morning of November 24, 1963—but certain portions happen to be on the same page as the notes made at that time were made.

Mr. Griffin. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you tell us if that portion which pertains to Ruby—the Ruby interview in the jail cell, and appears on that page, follows consecutively from some point on that page?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, from about the center of the page, below a wavy line drawn across it, continuing on the second page, marked Exhibit 3-B, and the third page marked Exhibit 3-C, down to the lower portion ending with “deceased mother.”

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you read the first two lines on Exhibit 3-A that consist of the notes taken at your interview with Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell?

Mr. Sorrels. “Chicago, 3-25-1911, Jack Ruby (Rubenstein), Entertainment, Carousel Club. Had business closed for 3 days.”

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me hand you again Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy, to sign your name on the first page of that exhibit.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, it is.

Mr. Griffin. Would you sign your name, then, on the first page of the exhibit?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 2-A, B and C, and D, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy to sign your name on the first page of Exhibit 2-A.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you, Mr. Sorrels, Exhibit 3-A, B, and C, and ask you the same question with respect to that, and ask you to do the same thing.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let the record reflect that I am putting my initials, BWG, on pages 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D. Let the record reflect I have done the same thing with pages 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Smith, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Sorrels at this stage of his deposition, to clarify any points on the record?

Mr. Smith. Yes, just with respect to one point.

Mr. Stern. Please go ahead.

Mr. Smith. Mr. Sorrels, you testified that in your interview with Jack Ruby in the jail, you did not warn him of his constitutional rights. Was this due to oversight on your part?

Mr. Sorrels. No, it was not.

Mr. Smith. Will you state, then, the reason why you did not do so?

Mr. Sorrels. My purpose in getting to Jack Ruby and talking to him as quickly as I did was to determine whether or not he was involved with anyone else in connection with the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also to determine whether or not Jack Ruby had any connection or association with Lee Harvey Oswald. I did not warn him of his constitutional rights, because insofar as I was concerned at this particular interview, my conversation with him was not—strike was not—had no bearing insofar as the murder case against Jack Ruby was concerned.

My purpose was trying to obtain information for my service to determine whether or not there were others involved in this case that would be of concern to the Secret Service in connection with their protective duties of the President of the United States and the Vice President.

Mr. Stern. Is there anything else, Mr. Smith, you would like to cover?

Mr. Smith. No. Thank you.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Sorrels, you have had a lengthy session here today. If it is convenient for you, I would prefer to carry on that part of it that I am interested in tomorrow morning, rather than to try to finish late today. Would that be convenient for you?

Mr. Sorrels. That is satisfactory for me, yes.

Mr. Stern. Fine. Why don’t we suspend now and resume in the morning.