TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD (continued 2)

Mr. Griffin. How old a girl would you say she was?

Mr. Crafard. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person, easy to like.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant that you dated?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I think it was?

Mr. Crafard. It was on Commerce.

Mr. Hubert. Commerce.

Mr. Crafard. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got acquainted with him a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. How many girls in the club went there?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe the girls in the club went there to eat often.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?

Mr. Crafard. The name isn’t familiar to me.

Mr. Hubert. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the Nichol’s Garage next door?

Mr. Crafard. That would be the colored boy, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. No; this was a white man.

Mr. Crafard. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer or two.

Mr. Hubert. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?

Mr. Crafard. No; the garage. In the office.

Mr. Hubert. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby’s best friends other than his business acquaintances?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.

Mr. Hubert. What about girl friends?

Mr. Crafard. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he went with quite a few times.

Mr. Hubert. Was she a stripper?

Mr. Crafard. No; she didn’t work for him.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know her first name?

Mr. Crafard. I am not positive of her name. I don’t recall her name. Names is something to me that doesn’t mean much. I meet so many people.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell Restaurant?

Mr. Crafard. Not too well.

Mr. Griffin. Were there a couple of older men?

Mr. Crafard. One older man that worked behind the counter in the evenings.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?

Mr. Crafard. He didn’t eat there when I was there with him, after I went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.

Mr. Griffin. Was that the older man?

Mr. Crafard. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw there.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t recall his name, first name, do you?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall his first name.

Mr. Griffin. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you recall?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would just as soon get ahold of and tear up.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Hubert. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack went out with socially.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not work at the club?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know how often. It was quite often.

Mr. Hubert. How would it come to your attention that he was going out with her?

Mr. Crafard. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out to dinner.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go out to dinner with them?

Mr. Crafard. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went out with her that he took her to dinner?

Mr. Crafard. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to dinner.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see her at his apartment?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his apartment?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs on which I am writing as follows: “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard.” And I am signing my name below there. On the next picture I am also marking, “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition of C. L. Crafard” and signing my name.

(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E for identification.)

Mr. Hubert. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C, 5200-D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those pictures you can see the girl we have just been talking about, to wit, the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?

Mr. Crafard. Her picture is in every one.

Mr. Hubert. Her picture is in every one?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by referring to her dress?

Mr. Crafard. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and white striped dress.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember if it was red and white?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember the color, but it seems to me it would be a stripe, something that people would wear.

Mr. Hubert. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and white dress similar to that dress?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and white checkered dress on.

Mr. Hubert. Not stripes like that?

Mr. Crafard. No. It was a softer——

Mr. Hubert. So your remark that it was red and white was inadvertent, or do you really have any recollection?

Mr. Crafard. It would be an inadvertent remark.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Go on to the next picture and call off the identification mark when you speak of it.

Mr. Crafard. Exhibit B, it would be the girl in the middle in the striped dress.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Crafard. In Exhibit C it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder in the striped dress. Exhibit D it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder with the striped dress. Exhibit E would be the girl in the middle with the striped dress.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize Ruby in all of these pictures, too?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Who is the other girl?

Mr. Crafard. The other girl was one of the strippers in his club.

Mr. Hubert. What was her name?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it is Tammi True.

Mr. Hubert. That girl you have identified in all those pictures as having the striped dress, that is the girl you are talking about whom Ruby used to take out socially?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And you don’t know her name?

Mr. Crafard. Could I say that other girl is Kathy Kay, I am definite of that after looking at her picture closer.

Mr. Hubert. The blond girl is Kathy Kay?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So you want to change your opinion expressed a moment ago that it was Tammi True, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the taking of this segment of the deposition dealing with the identification of these photos, I think you had looked at at least one of these photos and could not recognize the girl that you have now recognized as being the companion of Ruby.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. As being such. Then later you have come to the conclusion that it is the girl. Can you tell us why you have now come to the conclusion that it is the same girl?

Mr. Crafard. After looking at the whole group of pictures and the different angles of her head where you can see her features better, I came to the conclusion that is the girl.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, when you first expressed doubt as to whether it was, you were looking at one picture only?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And after having looked at all of those pictures, that is to say five of them as identified, you now are positive that that is the girl?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I understand you to say you had at least one occasion on which you actually had dinner with Jack and this girl is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Would it be fair to say you were in her company therefore and could see her at close range for a period of at least an hour on that occasion?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know who she is?

Mr. Crafard. I cannot recall her name, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I wish you would give some thought to what her name is before you leave so perhaps we can——

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to write her name down any place for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. I believe her name was wrote down, I believe her name was wrote down in the notebook.

Mr. Griffin. In the little notebook you were keeping for him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, what other friends did you note that Ruby had? You mentioned George Senator, and you have mentioned this girl who was in the striped dress in the Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E. Who else do you know?

Mr. Crafard. Ralph Paul.

Mr. Hubert. I think you have told us something about him.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who else?

Mr. Crafard. There was a couple of the comedians from some of the other clubs that came up to the club quite often.

Mr. Hubert. Who were they?

Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t know their names.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any others than those you have already mentioned?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can name; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you at the club from the time you first went there until the time you left?

Mr. Crafard. Approximately 6 weeks to a month or 2 months.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any members of the Dallas police force there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us something about that.

Mr. Crafard. Well, the uniformed patrolman would come up every once in awhile in the evening and have coffee on the club.

Mr. Hubert. When you say on the club, you mean without paying for it?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard. I on several occasions—I on several occasions served the coffee for them.

Mr. Hubert. Normally you would collect for that?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I mean normally you would collect from another patron.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t collect from the police?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Why?

Mr. Crafard. Jack told me to go ahead and they could have coffee whenever they wanted.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you did not ask any money for the coffee because you had been instructed not to by Jack?

Mr. Crafard. The girls had told me that they was allowed to do so.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember which girl?

Mr. Crafard. The waitresses.

Mr. Hubert. The waitresses?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Jack never did mention the subject to you?

Mr. Crafard. The only thing he ever mentioned was that the policemen went off duty, would come in there when they were off duty, got their drinks at a cut price.

Mr. Hubert. What was the cut price?

Mr. Crafard. The normal price was 60 cents, and they got them for 40 cents.

Mr. Hubert. That you say is when they were off duty?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any instructions as to what the price was to be when they came in on duty?

Mr. Crafard. There was no charge for the coffee, and none would drink anything other than coffee, to my knowledge, when they were on duty or maybe a Coke or—a glass of Coke or a glass of 7-Up.

Mr. Hubert. How did they identify themselves when they were off duty so that they got the cut rate?

Mr. Crafard. Well, most of them when they come in there, when they come to the door they got in the door free so they showed a card at the door, their identification at the door. And then it usually would be at the bar, the girls knew most of them that did come in there when they were off duty. Evidently I took it that Jack had introduced them as officers, and we had occasion one night to serve one of the gentlemen, we was talking, and one of the girls when I took over the bar from Andy, he had to leave early, and he told me this gentleman was a police officer. He said he only charged him 40 cents. So I had occasion to talk with them.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get to know any by sight?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I could—just when he walked in the door and say he was a police officer.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know any by name?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see any of those policemen at the Ruby trial?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall it, sir.

Mr. Griffin. How many different policemen would you say came in to Ruby’s place during the period you were there?

Mr. Crafard. When they were off duty, to my knowledge, there was only about 4 or 5 of them would come in there, off duty, and it was usually the same ones that were on duty that would come in to have coffee, patrolmen. The others were usually plainclothesmen, detectives.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what bureau any of them were attached to?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether there were any of them attached to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. Crafard. No; not definitely.

Mr. Griffin. You have some thought that they were?

Mr. Crafard. You mentioned the juvenile bureau, it seems to me there was something mentioned about one of them being from the juvenile bureau or something.

Mr. Griffin. Is this something you read in the paper, or something that was mentioned at the club.

Mr. Crafard. No, something that was mentioned at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby follow a pretty close routine of life insofar as his activities were concerned?

Mr. Crafard. For him, yes. His routine was for myself, or for any ordinary businessmen that I have known, any businessmen that I have known, would have been a real rough, hurry-scurry routine.

Mr. Hubert. Well, let’s take it timewise. For instance, you say he usually called you in the morning. Was that pretty routine?

Mr. Crafard. No; that varied.

Mr. Hubert. And I think you said that he came in usually sometime before noon.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that pretty regular?

Mr. Crafard. Most of the time he would be in before noon, between 10:30 and 12 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. Then what would he do with the rest of the day?

Mr. Crafard. Well, he would be around the club for maybe anywhere from a half hour to 2 hours, then he would leave the club and I might not see him again until midnight.

Mr. Hubert. And then he stayed until the club closed?

Air. Crafard. When he came back to the club after the club opened he generally stayed until the club closed. On three or four occasions he stayed until the club closed and then he went over to the Vegas Club.

Mr. Hubert. Normally what would he do?

Mr. Crafard. He would go over to the Vegas Club and pick up the receipts for the day.

Mr. Hubert. And then what?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, go home maybe stop for a bite to eat.

Mr. Griffin. What would he do with the receipts?

Mr. Crafard. He would carry them home with him and the next day bring them back to the Carousel.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a safe?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; he bought a safe while I was with him.

Mr. Griffin. When was that?

Mr. Crafard. It was about 2 weeks prior to the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Griffin. How did he happen to come to buy that safe?

Mr. Crafard. Well, he was always carrying quite a bit of cash and he was always worried about having somebody rob him or something, and I guess he wanted, he finally made up his mind to buy a safe and he went down to buy a safe.

Mr. Griffin. Were you with him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I was with him when he purchased the safe.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where he went?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the name of the company.

Mr. Griffin. Whereabouts was it located?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, it was a block and a half right straight behind the Carousel Club, but I can’t recall the name of the street.

Mr. Griffin. It would have been on Field?

Mr. Crafard. No, Commerce—Field is next to Commerce, I believe.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Crafard. It was the next block back.

Mr. Griffin. Was it a——

Mr. Crafard. It was a furniture, office furniture supply house.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, how big a safe was it that he bought?

Mr. Crafard. It was a wall safe, a floor safe.

Mr. Griffin. About how high would you say that it stood off the floor?

Mr. Crafard. About 18 inches tall. The common type that is poured in the cement in the floor.

Mr. Griffin. Was this poured in the cement?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Could somebody, if somebody had broken into the building, could they have carried this safe away?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir. The safe was in his office and the office was always locked and I was there all the time.

Mr. Griffin. But when you weren’t there, if somebody had gotten into the building, and had broken into the office, why they could have carried this out?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; they could have carried this out.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have the combination of the safe?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; Mr. Ruby and Andy was the only ones who had the combination.

Mr. Griffin. After he bought this safe did he use it to keep his money in?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge he only used it for the night receipts from the Carousel Club and Andy when he checked out if Jack wasn’t there, the safe had a compartment in the bottom they claimed was a burglarproof compartment in the bottom, had an envelope slot in it and he, would drop an envelope with the money in it.

Mr. Griffin. What would be done with the money at the end of the night? What would he do with the money?

Mr. Crafard. The next day Jack would take the money out and count it up.

Mr. Griffin. What would he do with it?

Mr. Crafard. He would put it in his pocket and go to the bank.

Mr. Griffin. Did he bank some place?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he bank?

Mr. Crafard. I believe, it was the First National, but I am not positive of that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you actually go with him to the bank when he——

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not when he was banking the deposits.

Mr. Griffin. At the end of, on a typical week night, about how much money would he have left, would he have at the end of the night?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, a typical night would maybe be anywhere from a $100 to $500 or $600.

Mr. Griffin. Of course, he had more business on the weekends than he had during the week, didn’t he?

Mr. Crafard. Usually; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Just taking the nights Monday through Thursday, how much would he typically have on one of those nights?

Mr. Crafard. Between $100 and $300, I would say.

Mr. Hubert. That is gross, isn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. On a weekend night, on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night how much would he take in?

Mr. Crafard. Anywhere from $100 to maybe $1,000. Depending on the type of what was doing there.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there any nights that he took in $1,000?

Mr. Crafard. The most I have ever known him to take in was one weekend, Friday and Saturday night, I believe it was $1,400 for the 2 nights.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to know that?

Mr. Crafard. I would usually be around when they counted the money up, and that weekend, I believe Sunday we was talking and Andy said something about that is the most money they took in any weekend for the last year or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Did he deal with any particular distributor of beer?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. What was the company that——

Mr. Crafard. He dealt with the different companies, one being the Pearl Beer, each different brand of beer had different distributors.

Mr. Griffin. Had its own distributors?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. How about liquor, did he buy hard liquor?

Mr. Crafard. No, there was no hard liquor sold in the club.

Mr. Griffin. So his only purchases were beer?

Mr. Crafard. Beer, coke and champagne.

Mr. Griffin. Who did he buy that from?

Mr. Crafard. Most of that was bought to my knowledge from the liquor store on the corner. I believe it was Segalis.

Mr. Griffin. How much champagne would he stock any one time?

Mr. Crafard. When he bought champagne he would usually buy a case of 12 bottles and it would usually average about two cases a week.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did they serve food?

Mr. Crafard. The only food we served was pizzas.

Mr. Griffin. Was pizzas?

Mr. Crafard. Pizzas.

Mr. Griffin. Were those made at the Carousel or were they sent out from those——

Mr. Crafard. We got those from Palumbo’s Pizza House. All you had to do was stick them in a warmer and warm them up.

Mr. Griffin. So his only expenses—tell me if you can think of any other expenses besides the one I recite here. He had the expenses of his entertainers, he had expenses for you and Andy Armstrong, he had rent and heat and light, and he had beer and pizza. Did he have any other expenses that you can think of?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I would say would be Carousel business expenses, no. He had a lot of sinking money into things all the time.

Mr. Griffin. What sort of things were those?

Mr. Crafard. Well, he was putting quite a bit of money into this twist board exerciser that he was promoting.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any other promotions besides the twist board while you were with him?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall. He would buy records and he had to buy flashbulbs and film for the camera. He took Polaroid pictures every night, three of them each night.

Mr. Griffin. Three Polaroid pictures each night?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; we had one girl who was, I believe it was Tammi True, would get on the stage and she would get a guy up there with her on the stage and take a picture of them and give the picture of the man, that was the only photograph taken and that would go right to the man.

Mr. Griffin. Well, what other business, you say he was always sinking money into things.

Mr. Crafard. Well, he had the Vegas Club and from what I understand he was taking money from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel Club from what I understood which I never could figure out.

Mr. Griffin. Why couldn’t you figure that out?

Mr. Crafard. Well, we always made enough to clear our bills, the Carousel made enough to clear the bills.

Mr. Griffin. By the bills you include the salaries of the entertainers?

Mr. Crafard. Most of that, yes. He was paying pretty good salaries. These girls got anywhere from $300 to $400, maybe $400, $500 a week for their entertaining.

Mr. Griffin. They all didn’t get that much.

Mr. Crafard. The entertainers, got anywhere from $300 to $500, $600 average, different.

Mr. Griffin. Was that just the featured stripper or was that each stripper?

Mr. Crafard. Jada was there, I believe, she was drawing $700 a month and the other girls I think was drawing between $300 and $500, somewhere between $300 and $500.

Mr. Griffin. A month?

Mr. Crafard. A month.

Mr. Griffin. A month. How about “Little” Lynn when she came to work there, was she getting paid the same as the rest of them?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so, I am not sure. I don’t know what her wages were, I am not sure, positive about it.

Mr. Griffin. Other than the twist boards and the Carousel and the Vegas Club what other things was Jack putting money into?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge that is all he had. He never seemed to have any. He always claimed he was going broke all the time.

Mr. Griffin. Was he actually selling these twist boards?

Mr. Crafard. He had never had made any sales while I was with him.

Mr. Hubert. Before you get into this, let me finish up this financial operation. I don’t think you have mentioned what the waitresses got.

Mr. Crafard. The waitresses worked on tips.

Mr. Hubert. Purely? There was no expense in connection with that?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Armstrong got any salary?

Mr. Crafard. He got a salary.

Mr. Hubert. How much was it?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. I think he was drawing about $300 a month, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Then there was a man Howard, the maintenance man.

Mr. Crafard. Howard just got paid, whenever he worked he would get paid, I think a dollar an hour. He didn’t work all the time. He might only get 4 or 5 hours a week.

Mr. Griffin. How much would you estimate in a typical week Ruby took in?

Mr. Crafard. In a typical week it would be anywhere from one to three thousand.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know where these twist boards were manufactured?

Mr. Crafard. They were manufactured in Houston—Fort Worth, I mean.

Mr. Griffin. What was the name of the company?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the name of the company. I had it wrote down in my notebook but I don’t recall the name of it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the name of a company called Plastolite Engineering?

Mr. Crafard. I remember something about it.

Mr. Griffin. But that wasn’t the name of the company that was manufacturing the twist boards?

Mr. Crafard. It might have been, I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. How was Jack trying to sell these twist boards?

Mr. Crafard. Like I say, he promoted them out at the fair—State Fair, and he had a couple of different stores promoting them, and he had——

Mr. Griffin. You mean they would be on display some place?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. And there was some set up, where some of the strippers went out to one place and done the twist on these twist exercisers.

Mr. Griffin. But to your knowledge he never made a sale on one?

Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. How much would one cost, if you wanted to buy it?

Mr. Crafard. The way he was selling them I believe it was two something. They were selling them in Texas but it was Penney’s, I believe it was Penney’s store was selling them.

Mr. Griffin. In Texas, you mean in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. In Dallas. They were selling them for $3.95 apiece, I think it was and he was selling his for $2.95 apiece.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack have anybody else associated with him in these twist boards?

Mr. Crafard. He was trying to get his one brother to do something with them, and I believe it was in Chicago.

Mr. Griffin. That would have been Hyman?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Griffin. That would have been Hyman in Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was “Hy,” yes.

Mr. Griffin. How do you know he was trying to get “Hy” interested in it?

Mr. Crafard. He had me send some to him.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you have testified to that you have been around carnivals and you have met a lot of people, and also I think you said that you form an impression of an individual pretty quickly and have found in your own experience you have only been wrong once, I think.

Mr. Crafard. I have been wrong twice that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to tell us what your impression was of Ruby, and if you can, give us some factual examples and reasons, you know.

Mr. Crafard. Well, first he was a kind of a likable person. He was kind of impressable. I mean he impressed me somewhat. I had one instant feeling, I can’t recollect, more or less the way he talked and his actions that the man might be somewhat queer.

Mr. Hubert. When you say “queer” you mean what?

Mr. Crafard. As the general usage of the term.

Mr. Hubert. You mean homosexual?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What caused you to feel that?

Mr. Crafard. The way he talked and his general action.

Mr. Hubert. Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?

Mr. Crafard. More or less.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have a lisp?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?

Mr. Crafard. Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any activity——

Mr. Crafard. When I first met him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?

Mr. Crafard. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.

Mr. Hubert. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have occasion to change that view?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?

Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.

Mr. Hubert. You heard about some, I suppose?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t. I never heard about any cases where he had.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?

Mr. Crafard. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of that friend?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.

Mr. Hubert. It was not one of the owners?

Mr. Crafard. Just a worker.

Mr. Hubert. And he was not homosexual himself?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.

Mr. Hubert. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?

Mr. Crafard. I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you didn’t think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?

Mr. Crafard. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?

Mr. Crafard. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don’t care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; he did.

Mr. Griffin. Which would those people be?

Mr. Crafard. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.

Mr. Griffin. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?

Mr. Crafard. More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It is kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven’t got the education to use the words.

Mr. Griffin. We don’t want it—we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don’t want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. Crafard. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.

Mr. Griffin. Well now, when you went into Jack’s apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?

Mr. Crafard. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.

Mr. Griffin. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn’t, for example?

Mr. Crafard. I only saw the bed in Jack’s room. The other bedroom the door was closed.

Mr. Griffin. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn’t all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.

Mr. Griffin. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.

Mr. Griffin. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort of——

Mr. Crafard. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn’t or taking care of clothes or things like that?

Mr. Crafard. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator—Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn’t have cooked or something, that—and it was something he didn’t do very often was cook. I can’t remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn’t cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.

Mr. Hubert. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any other specifics to mention?

Mr. Crafard. That would be about the only thing I could think of.

Mr. Hubert. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?

Mr. Crafard. He had an erratic temper.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.

Mr. Crafard. You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.

Mr. Hubert. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.

Mr. Crafard. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the girls were supposed to work. They took nights off.

Mr. Hubert. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.

Mr. Crafard. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn’t show up, Jack never said a word.

Mr. Hubert. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his anger?

Mr. Crafard. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some “stupid.”

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack swear, use profanity?

Mr. Crafard. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually “hell” or “damn.”

Mr. Hubert. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw light upon his temper?

Mr. Crafard. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn’t work and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about it and he wasn’t the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning until he had left.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?

Mr. Crafard. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some of the stories.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the M.C., if you can.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the M.C.s name.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what period of time it was?

Mr. Crafard. Working for Jack when I went to work for him. He was working for Jack.

Mr. Hubert. How many M.C.s worked during that time?

Mr. Crafard. About three different M.C.s.

Mr. Hubert. This was the one who was working when you first went to work with it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that?

Mr. Crafard. He had quite a habit of telling racial jokes and Jack was pretty much against this and on several occasions he got pretty perturbed with the M.C. for telling the racial jokes.

Mr. Hubert. When you say pretty perturbed, you see that doesn’t tell us about what he did.

Mr. Crafard. To the point where he went in among the chairs right by the stage and was yelling at the M.C.

Mr. Hubert. So that he could be heard all over the club?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. Very definitely.

Mr. Hubert. And yelling, by yelling you mean that his voice was raised above the normal?

Mr. Crafard. Very much so.

Mr. Hubert. What was he saying?

Mr. Crafard. Telling him, you know, “I don’t like that kind of jokes in here.” He said, stuff like that.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of jokes were they?

Mr. Crafard. Racial jokes.

Mr. Hubert. Well about what race?

Mr. Crafard. Colored people.

Mr. Hubert. About the colored people?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; Jack was against a racial joke of any type, very much so.

Mr. Hubert. Did you find that out from him or just from this occasion?

Mr. Crafard. From these different occasions like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever tell you himself that he was?

Mr. Crafard. No; not personally, but from the way he acted on different occasions like that that would happen he would chew the M.C. out pretty good for telling the racial jokes and for some pretty vulgar jokes he told, on occasions.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he objected to vulgar jokes?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; he said that his objection was the club was no place for that real vulgar type of joke.

Mr. Hubert. By vulgar you mean a joke that dealt with sex?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; joke that would leave no doubt in a person’s mind that it was a sexual joke. Some of them that he told were just that type of joke.

Mr. Hubert. You mean abnormal sex?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So what he objected to were jokes that had to do with abnormal sex, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Well, there was, I think on one or two occasions there was, the M.C. told jokes of an abnormal sex, but there was things that were real vulgar jokes where he was cussing a lot or something in a joke he didn’t care for too much. He don’t like the foul language used in the club very much.

Mr. Griffin. How about—these comedians must have told sexual jokes, didn’t they?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; that is one of the things that put a comedian over in that kind of a club; they are there to sell sex, and if they don’t tell a sexual joke the comedian is nothing.

Mr. Griffin. How do you distinguish for us between the kind of sexual jokes that Jack would be upset about and those he accepted?

Mr. Crafard. [Deleted.]

Mr. Hubert. Is that the type of joke that Ruby objected to?

Mr. Crafard. That type of joke would be acceptable because it leaves a person to figure out in his own mind what the deal is.

Mr. Griffin. What kind would be objectionable?

Mr. Crafard. [Deleted.]

Mr. Hubert. That would be an objectionable joke?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; because there would be no question in anybody’s mind.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a specific example, or one that you were using?

Mr. Crafard. An example; the joke was not told in the club.

Mr. Hubert. From what you have told us as a generalization it would seem to be this, that any joke that left it to the imagination of the listener would be all right with Jack, but if it was specific he objected to it.

Mr. Crafard. That is right. It was pretty well acceptable all over the country that way. You take even with a party joke. If a party joke leaves in a person’s mind in most places, leaves it to a person to imagine it themselves, it is acceptable. But if there isn’t any doubt it doesn’t make it acceptable in a mixed party.

Mr. Griffin. Larry, did you learn anything that would indicate whether Jack’s attitude about these jokes was based on any concern about what the local law-enforcement people would feel about having such jokes told in his club?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t—I can’t think of anything that would make me feel that way.

Mr. Hubert. Was it your impression of his being perturbed, as the way you put it, was sincere or possibly just part of the act?

Mr. Crafard. It seemed pretty sincere to me.

Mr. Hubert. He never did tell you, man to man, that he objected to these?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack tell any jokes himself?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall of any. I think a couple of times he got on the stage and tried to M.C. and fell sort of flat.

Mr. Griffin. How about privately; was Jack the kind of person who would joke and tell jokes?

Mr. Crafard. He never did that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack the kind of person who would sit around with the comedians and talk with them in between acts and so forth?

Mr. Crafard. No; Jack was the kind that the only time he would say anything to the comedians was if he done something he didn’t like, and if Jack wanted the comedian to do something he would say something to him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever notice any traits of physical violence in Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. The one time I noticed any traits of physical violence at all, there was a guy came to the club who was pretty well polluted, and I think Ralph Paul was sitting right near the door, and he started giving the doorman a bad time.

Mr. Hubert. Who started——

Mr. Crafard. This drunk fellow did.

Mr. Hubert. Ralph had to get him to leave?

Mr. Crafard. Ralph was sitting right there and he asked the gentleman to leave and he wouldn’t do it, and Jack went over there and the gentleman struck Ralph Paul and when he did Jack just pushed his arm down and pushed him out the door.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t hit him?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you form any impression about Ralph Paul, as to whether Ralph Paul was a homosexual?

Mr. Crafard. No; Ralph was a pretty good, decent guy. I liked him, what little I did know of him. I like him. He was kind of a stuffed shirt, but he was a fair, likable guy.

Mr. Griffin. Did you notice if Jack’s club was visited by any people who would appear to you to be homosexuals?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t notice that. I can’t recall of any specific people coming in that would appear to be this way.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever talk to you about sex?

Mr. Crafard. No; very seldom; one or two occasions when I said something about a girl or something, when I said something about a girl or something.

Mr. Griffin. What was his interest in his dogs?

Mr. Crafard. Sheba was the only one that really meant a lot to him. He was like a lot of people who are alone, and get with animals.

Mr. Griffin. You mean he was attached to them?

Mr. Crafard. Really attached.

Mr. Griffin. To Sheba?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did he breed Sheba?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. Sheba had been bred.

Mr. Griffin. Was this something that he did, or did he send her some place to be bred?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he took her to another place, another place to be bred; I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything, any experience you had which indicated he had any sexual interest in these dogs?

Mr. Crafard. No; I wouldn’t say so.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him try to sexually stimulate these dogs?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I ever saw.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear anything in that regard?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now the example you gave us about Ruby putting the man out at the club is the only one that you ever perceived as an act of physical violence?

Mr. Crafard. Where he actually used physical violence. I have seen him where he was close to it at another M.C. at one time. Threatened for him to go out or he would throw him out, which was something which occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.’s.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack’s just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.

Mr. Hubert. Jack walked away from that man?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You never saw him hit anybody?

Mr. Crafard. No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man’s hand and knocked it down.

Mr. Hubert. Was the comedian bigger than Jack?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; bigger than Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Quite a bit bigger?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How about the patron that he handled?

Mr. Crafard. He was a bigger fellow. He stood about 6 foot. He is quite a bit bigger than I am, even. He was taller and heavier.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything about what Ruby did to keep in physical condition?

Mr. Crafard. I knew he worked with barbells quite a lot.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know that?

Mr. Crafard. He told me about his barbells a couple of times and he was dieting, and I had heard that he went to a gymnasium quite often.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to you to be a powerful man, considering his build and weight and size?

Mr. Crafard. For his type of build and flabbiness as he was, he had quite a bit of strength.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know that?

Mr. Crafard. Well——

Mr. Hubert. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which demonstrated the use of strength?

Mr. Crafard. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.

Mr. Hubert. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he was a pretty strong man, considering his size.

Mr. Crafard. Well, for as heavy a man as he was, he was pretty solid for one thing; he was fairly solid.

Mr. Hubert. You could tell that by looking at him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I suppose you have seen him with his coat off or something.

Mr. Crafard. I saw him with just his pants and a T-shirt on, or an undershirt and pants, on one occasion when I went to his house. He shaved and he said something and I stepped over to the bathroom door; I couldn’t hear. He repeated it and I stepped back and sat down and watched television and then he went ahead and got cleaned up.

Mr. Hubert. Did he carry a gun?

Mr. Crafard. He had one in the car. He very seldom carried it on his person.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he keep it in the car?

Mr. Crafard. Usually in the trunk; it was in a money pouch, a money sack, which usually stayed in the trunk.

Mr. Hubert. You say he didn’t carry it on his person?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see it on his person or know it was there in some way?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; one night that I knew for sure it was there.

Mr. Hubert. What night was that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the date, but something happened, and Jack sent me down to the car to get the gun and bring it up to him.

Mr. Griffin. Was there some trouble in the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember whether it was right in the Carousel or whether it was a phone call or what it was, really. There was something there——

Mr. Hubert. He told you something that indicated he ought to have the gun, and he asked you to go get it?

Mr. Crafard. He sent me down after the gun.

Mr. Hubert. Did he just simply send you down after the gun, or did he tell you that there was something that had happened?

Mr. Crafard. He sent me down after the gun. Something happened right there at the club. I can’t——

Mr. Hubert. Was it some sort of a disturbance?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall just what it was.

Mr. Griffin. Was this an incident that other people would have been aware of; Andy Armstrong might have been aware of?

Mr. Crafard. I believe Andy Armstrong was right there at the time. I believe most any of the girls who worked for him were aware of it at the time.

Mr. Hubert. Did I misunderstand you? Did you say this incident where you were sent for the gun was preceded by a phone call?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. He had been on the phone and then he went outside and then something happened at the club; he had an argument or something.

Mr. Griffin. What did he do after you brought the gun?

Mr. Crafard. He was right there and the club was closed and I didn’t see him until the next day. He seemed pretty angry.

Mr. Griffin. He didn’t try to throw anybody out?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was George Senator there at the time?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember how close this incident was to the death of the President?

Mr. Crafard. It was either a week before or the same week, earlier the same week, that President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a weekday?

Mr. Crafard. No. It was during the week.

Mr. Hubert. It was not on a weekend?

Mr. Crafard. No; it was during the week.

Mr. Hubert. So it would have been sometime between the 17th, say, of November and prior to the 22d, or it would have been sometime between the 11th and the 15th of November; is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever noticed any incidents of Ruby that would throw some light on whether he was a person who had a trait of kindness or benevolence toward other people?

Mr. Crafard. He was quite kindhearted.

Mr. Hubert. Give us an example of that.

Mr. Crafard. One example was the way he took me in. He had no reason for doing it. He wasn’t obligated to do it in any way.

Mr. Hubert. You think you earned your pay?

Mr. Crafard. What is that?

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you earned your pay?

Mr. Crafard. I think I earned everything I got.

Mr. Hubert. Do you still think it was an act of kindness on his part to take you in?

Mr. Crafard. I think he was doing me a favor, and still in all he was getting some pretty cheap work, labor.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ask him for the job or did he ask you?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me. And then I know of another occasion where I was told about of this young fellow he took in didn’t do a thing around the club and he had him around there for 3 or 4 months.

Mr. Griffin. Did it seem to you that Jack felt it was important that he have somebody at the club all the time?

Mr. Crafard. After I was there for a while he seemed to feel that way. At first, when I first got to know him, he didn’t seem to feel that way.

Mr. Hubert. This boy that had been there more or less doing the job that you did, but was there prior to you; did you know this fellow?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard—Andy had told me about him.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that you heard from Andy or otherwise there had been some trouble between Ruby and that man?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was something said about trouble.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that you heard that Ruby pistol-whipped him?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t recall of ever hearing that statement.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear that this boy was Jewish?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir. I had no idea; no knowledge of him.

Mr. Hubert. You never met him?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. I understand that there came a time when you asked Jack to put you on a different pay basis than you originally were.

Mr. Crafard. When I went to work it was on the understanding that I eventually would be with him a Little while and then I would start being on a salary.

Mr. Griffin. How long were you with him? Well, let me put it this way: Did there come a time when you began to ask to be put on salary?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long after?

Mr. Crafard. Because I felt that the way things were, I didn’t have any private life of my own. He wanted to tell me what I could do, who I could talk to, and who I couldn’t talk to if he put me on a salary where I was maybe making $35 or $40 a week I could live on my own, which I would much prefer to do.

Mr. Griffin. $35 or $40 plus the opportunity to live at the club?

Mr. Crafard. As long as it was $35 or $40, period. I could live on my own; for the work I done at the club, I could live on my own.

Mr. Griffin. All right. How long had you been with Jack before you started to ask him about this?

Mr. Crafard. I probably had been with him about 4 or 5 weeks. That was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. Griffin. What did Jack say when you mentioned that to him?

Mr. Crafard. He said he would see what he could do.

Mr. Griffin. What do you mean by that? What did you understand by that?

Mr. Crafard. Well, he said what he could do; he would figure his bookwork out and see what he could do.

Mr. Griffin. Did you remind him of the fact that he had told you that at the beginning?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS L. CRAFARD RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 1:30 p.m.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Crafard, this is a continuation of the deposition which was recessed for the lunch hour. You understand that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority that we commenced it with, and likewise that you are under the same oath that you were under and that you took at the beginning of that deposition?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is that agreeable to you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when did you first hear that the President was going to visit Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 3 or 4 weeks before he came to Dallas. It was advertised in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working for Ruby at that time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; it came out in the papers that showed the proposed route and the proposed secondary route of this trip through the city.

Mr. Hubert. Are you saying that the first time you found out that he, President Kennedy, was going to visit the city, was when you read it in the newspapers?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And that in that account that you read in the newspapers, the proposed route and an alternate route was given?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been just a very few days before he actually came, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was at least a week before he came that that came out.

Mr. Hubert. At any rate, whatever day the proposed route came out in the papers that was the first day that you found out that the President was coming to Dallas at all?

Mr. Crafard. They had been thinking he was going to come to Dallas. They said something about it, but there was nothing definite at that time, I didn’t know anything definite about it until I read it in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. You had read something in the paper about his coming prior to the time that the route was set out?

Mr. Crafard. There was something in the paper about it figured he would come or something but so far as I can recall there was nothing definite until that same issue.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you ever talk to Ruby about it?

Mr. Crafard. No. There wasn’t much said about it in the club.

Mr. Hubert. Was anything said about it?

Mr. Crafard. Something the day the paper came out with the proposed route, we all said something about the fact that he was coming to town, Dallas, that it would probably help Dallas a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Help in what way?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe bring a few more conventions or something.

Mr. Hubert. Who said that?

Mr. Crafard. We all discussed it, Andy and Jack and I.

Mr. Hubert. Including Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember specifically a conference, or conversation, rather, of which there were three, at least, Jack Ruby and Andy Armstrong, at which it was mentioned that it was a good thing for Dallas because it would bring more conventions?

Mr. Crafard. It was in the paper, when Jack came to the club we already had the paper there and Jack came to the club and he read the paper and said something about it and then he said something to the effect that it might help Dallas a little bit because it might bring more conventions to Dallas, or something to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. That was the day that the paper came out with the route?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you talked to Ruby about the President’s visit prior to that day.

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Had you talked to anyone else?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t let me finish my question. Had you talked to anyone else about the fact that the President might be coming to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall anything about it, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When you say there was no conversation in the club about it other than what you have testified to——

Mr. Crafard. None that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was any mention made of the fact that in any conversation between you and Jack or anybody else about the fact that the parade would pass near the club?

Mr. Crafard. There was something said that we only have to walk a block, I think, or something like that, up where we could see the parade.

Mr. Hubert. Who said that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember whether it was Andy or myself.

Mr. Hubert. Could it have been Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. It might have been. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, either you or Andy made such a remark, and was Jack present when it was made?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You have a distinct recollection of that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t have a distinct recollection; no.

Mr. Hubert. Was it on the same occasion that you mentioned earlier that he came in and said about how it would improve the business?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was the day before the President’s trip, arrival in Dallas, Andy and I had been saying something about wanting to see it and some one of us said something about it was only about a block or something like that to go to see it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask Jack’s permission to leave to go watch it?

Mr. Crafard. I think we both told Jack that we was going to go watch it.

Mr. Hubert. You and Andy did?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Together?

Mr. Crafard. No; we didn’t figure on going. Andy was taking the day off so he could go and I told Jack I was figuring going on up and watching the parade.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about it?

Mr. Crafard. He didn’t say anything.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall him saying anything.

Mr. Hubert. You were asking him——

Mr. Crafard. Other than maybe telling me it was all right to go or something.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I was wondering. Did he express any consent or disapproval?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall what he said.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention what he was going to do about watching it?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell him where you were going to watch it, yourself?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. You recall, of course, the day that the President was shot.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall the night before that, which would have been Thursday night?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall it was more or less a general night for the club.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any special preparations by way of preparing for a larger crowd or for some program in connection with the President’s visit?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the night prior to the President’s visit was a routine night?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. I suppose you have put your mind to it since, particularly at the time it happened, because most people did, you know. They relate that historic event to their own lives and reconstruct what they were doing before and afterwards.

Did you do that? Have you ever done that?

Mr. Crafard. I have tried to think of what I was doing before, the night before, a couple nights before, or something like that. I don’t recall anything out of the ordinary.

Mr. Hubert. If it was the ordinary, then I suppose it would have been that the club were closed up at its usual hour.

Mr. Crafard. As far as I recall, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you were still sleeping there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I was still sleeping there.

Mr. Hubert. So you would have gone to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And then I suppose Ruby would have wakened you?

Mr. Crafard. Andy woke me that morning. He come in early. Andy always put the beer in and he come in early to do that so that he could have the rest of the day off.

Mr. Hubert. What time did Andy come in?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was about 9:30 or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Came in personally?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He was there when the President was shot.

Mr. Hubert. Were you asleep when he came in?

Mr. Crafard. I was asleep when he came in.

Mr. Hubert. Did you waken up when he came in?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t wake up—Andy woke me up and told me that the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. That was much later in the day, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. About 12:30?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you suppose to be doing your cleaning-up job?

Mr. Crafard. Ordinarily if I had been up, I would have been cleaning up; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Ordinarily he would have awakened you when he came in, wouldn’t he?

Mr. Crafard. Andy, when he came in he should have woke me up. I guess he said he had called me or something and I hadn’t woke up, I hadn’t got up or something.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t he know you wanted to go and see the parade?

Mr. Crafard. He knew I said something about it. I don’t know, I think maybe he had been down and saw us—down to see some of it or something and then come back to the club or something.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t leave word for anyone to call you to see the parade?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t it unusual for you to sleep that length of time?

Mr. Crafard. Not if I was tired and they didn’t call me, I’d sleep if they didn’t call me.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever done that before?

Mr. Crafard. I’ve seen the time when I went to sleep and slept 14 or 15 hours.

Mr. Hubert. No, I am talking about while you were at the club.

Mr. Crafard. At the club a couple times I slept until 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the afternoon before somebody woke me up.

Mr. Hubert. You had made no plans yourself to anticipate going to see the President?

Mr. Crafard. Not definite plans except if I got up I figured I’d go down and see it.

Mr. Hubert. And you intended to get up?

Mr. Crafard. I figured I’d wake up. I didn’t wake up.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go to bed, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, about 2:30 or 3 o’clock, or something.

Mr. Hubert. You slept clean around until 12:30 or after?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know Andy came in earlier?

Mr. Crafard. The beer was all taken care of, so I figured he had been in the club.

Mr. Hubert. You are not sure It was Andy that did that, then?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Put the beer on?

Mr. Crafard. Andy said something about doing it, he had done it earlier, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Was the beer normally delivered at a regular time?

Mr. Crafard. We had the beer delivered 2 days a week. Andy come in every day and put the beer in the cooler.

Mr. Hubert. Where was the beer delivered?

Mr. Crafard. It was delivered upstairs when it was delivered.

Mr. Hubert. Did somebody have to receive it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When was it delivered that day, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. It was delivered on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t delivered on this day, then?

Mr. Crafard. No, but he come up to put more beer in the cooler.

Mr. Hubert. That was his job?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He done that all the time.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have anything to do with it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Where would he carry the beer from, from what place to where?

Mr. Crafard. It would come in the front door of the club, there was a hallway off to the side here and come on over here and made an L. My room was here and he’d get the beer over here and take it out.

Mr. Hubert. He had to pass your room?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. He had to pass by it?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. He would come in the back of the club where the beer was stored?

Mr. Crafard. Probably he’d come in the front door and go up here and get the beer. My room was down here on this corner, and he would get the beer here.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave the door open or closed?

Mr. Crafard. My door was closed.

Mr. Hubert. Why was it closed?

Mr. Crafard. I closed it all the time.

Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you supposed to be sort of on guard, as it were, in addition to doing the job around there, that is part of your job having someone on the premises?

Mr. Crafard. I just figured having me sleep there, I guess. He never said anything to me about it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever awaken you oh other days when he brought the beer?

Mr. Crafard. If Andy came in when I was still in bed he’d usually wake me up, yes.

Mr. Hubert. But he did not this morning?

Mr. Crafard. He said he called me but I hadn’t woke up.

Mr. Hubert. He called you by telephone or in person?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know whether he called me by telephone, he said he tried to call me by telephone or called me when he come to the club or what.

Mr. Hubert. If he called you by telephone where would the telephone have been in reference to your room?

Mr. Crafard. In the room next to my room.

Mr. Hubert. Could you hear it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever been awakened before by it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, several times.

Mr. Hubert. There is no doubt then that if he had called you by telephone it would have awakened you?

Mr. Crafard. More likely I figured it would have, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Of course if he had tried to wake you by calling you, just through the door, that would have awakened you, I assume.

Mr. Crafard. I might have roused up, spoke to him and answered him and then got back down without even knowing it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it. I say I might have.

Mr. Griffin. When did he tell you that he called you?

Mr. Crafard. It was shortly after he did wake me up.

Mr. Hubert. How did he wake you up?

Mr. Crafard. He come in there and he had his radio up real loud when he come in there and he told me the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. And that was at what time?

Mr. Crafard. He called me two or three times. It was just after the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. How many times did he call you? You said two or three times?

Mr. Crafard. He called me two or three times at that time when he woke me up there he called me two or three times.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard. He said so.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall it two or three times?

Mr. Crafard. I recall hearing him call me twice that I know of right then.

Mr. Hubert. And then that aroused you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been drinking the night before?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at, Larry, is why it was so difficult to wake you that morning.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I can understand that.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any explanation for it?

Mr. Crafard. None that I can think of except that I probably was a little tired, except a little tired from the night before when I went to bed.

Mr. Hubert. You do recall that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I went to bed and went right to sleep. I didn’t lie awake very long.

Mr. Hubert. Do you normally lay awake sometimes?

Mr. Crafard. I normally lay awake anywhere from an hour and a half to 2 hours.

Mr. Hubert. But this particular night you did not?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You weren’t drinking?

Mr. Crafard. No, not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Do you drink much?

Mr. Crafard. Very seldom. I drank, I think, three or four different times while I was there that I drank a beer or two, that was all.

Mr. Hubert. So that your heavy sleep on the morning of the 22d couldn’t be attributed to the fact that you had a hangover?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or that you were suffering from any overindulgence in alcohol?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t take any kind of sleeping pills or anything like that?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So this was just normal sleep?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And his call failed to wake you?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. What did he tell you when he first came in?

Mr. Crafard. The first thing he said was President Kennedy had been shot. He said, “The President has been shot.” I wouldn’t hardly believe him.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do?

Mr. Crafard. Immediately we went in and turned the television on. He had his radio going and I turned the television on and listened to his radio and then we had to turn the television up real loud where we could hear it. We were more interested in what was said than the pictures they was showing or anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what time it was?

Mr. Crafard. It was something like——

Mr. Hubert. I mean first of all when he woke you up.

Mr. Crafard. 20 or 25 to 12.

Mr. Hubert. To 12?

Mr. Crafard. Or after 12, to 1, I mean. I think it was something like that. I’m not sure. I didn’t have a watch on. I didn’t have a watch at that time.

Mr. Hubert. You began looking at the television. I suppose from the time that you woke up plus the time it took you to get dressed, or did you get dressed?

Mr. Crafard. As soon as he woke me up he went in and turned the television on while I was putting my pants on, putting my clothes on.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what was the first thing you saw on television?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a news commentator?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember which one?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the station it was on?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember what station it was on, either.

It was one of the local—I believe it was 12 that Dallas-Fort Worth—I believe that was the station.

Mr. Hubert. It was a Dallas station or a Fort Worth station?

Mr. Crafard. It is one there they call the Dallas-Fort Worth, WWTV12, I think it is.

Mr. Hubert. KLRD, is that what it is?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know what station it is. I am not sure whether it was WWTV.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there watching?

Mr. Crafard. We turned it up real loud where we could hear it and then listened to his radio, too, where we would hear both of them.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead, what happened next?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall exactly what was said except the fact that the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you continue to watch it?

Mr. Crafard. We watched it right up until—most of the day, I think, we had the television on there, then, most of the day.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do any of your work?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, I started to clean up. When Jack come in he said not to. He said, “We’re going to close the club for the weekend.”

Mr. Hubert. What time did he come in?

Mr. Crafard. It was about 2 or 2:30, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. About 2 hours after, do you think?

Mr. Crafard. About that; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what happened, how he looked, what he said and all that, when he came in?

Mr. Crafard. He was like everybody else, shocked.

Mr. Hubert. How did he manifest that shock?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. How did he manifest the shock? What did he do or say that gave you the impression that he was suffering from shock like everybody else?

Mr. Crafard. About the same thing as any of us said. We couldn’t really believe it.

Mr. Hubert. Was he crying, for example?

Mr. Crafard. He seemed to be very nervous. As far as really being crying, I couldn’t say for sure he had been crying. He wasn’t crying at the time, anyway.

Mr. Hubert. Was his nervousness, or his shock greater than, say, that which you could observe in Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe it was. He was much nervouser than Andy or I, either one was.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how did that come across to you, by what he said or did?

Mr. Crafard. It come across that it struck him pretty deep that Kennedy had been assassinated, had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. You see you have to get that impression from him in one of two ways. Either he said something or he did things, and that is what I want to find out, what he said or he did that creates an impression that now remains in your mind as being one of more shock than anybody else, and as you put it, extreme nervousness. You don’t get that impression except what you saw or you heard.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now that is what I want to find out, because it is one thing to have your impression but it is another thing to have what caused your impression.

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He couldn’t believe it had happened.

Mr. Hubert. He said so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What else did he do that was out of the ordinary?

Mr. Crafard. I was trying to think.

Mr. Hubert. Did he cry? You said a moment ago he did not.

Mr. Crafard. He said it was an outrageous crime, that it would ruin the city of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why, in what way it would ruin it?

Mr. Crafard. The fact that the President had been shot there in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Would ruin it how?

Mr. Crafard. As far as nightclubs, nightclub activity was concerned, for all nightclubs concerned, it would pretty well pull a lot of the conventions away, and such as that.

Mr. Hubert. So that when Ruby came back and expressed his concern about the shooting of the President, he adverted to the fact that that crime would hurt Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Would hurt the convention business and would hurt his business?

Mr. Crafard. He just said all nightclubs. He said the nightclub business in general, I believe, more than his personal business.

Mr. Hubert. Did he specifically advert to how that would affect the Carousel and the Vegas?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Andy and I both, I believe it was myself that made the statement that the guy, whoever had done that, had ought to hang, or something to that effect, and we was all pretty much in agreement on that subject. Our agreement on that was about the same.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, in this conference, I call it conference, I mean meeting that you and Andy and Jack had together, which commenced about 2 hours after the President’s assassination, you discussed the fact that it was a terrible crime, that it would hurt the city and the nightclub business and that the man who did it ought to be punished?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And Jack was a part of that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; we was all pretty much in agreement on that. We agreed to the fact it would——

Mr. Hubert. Did you know at that time who had done it or who was suspected of having done it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that earlier on the news, or something, I believe they suspected Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Had he been mentioned by name?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he had; yes.

Mr. Hubert. That was prior to the time Ruby came in?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so, I’m not definite on that, but I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Well, Ruby came in, you are quite sure, about 2 hours after you heard of it?

Mr. Crafard. About 2 hours, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you heard of it at a little after 12:30?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; just shortly after it happened.

Mr. Hubert. So Jack told you that there is no use cleaning up?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He said, “We’re going to close the club for the weekend.”

Mr. Hubert. What did he propose to do about the cleaning up job as to the club?

Mr. Crafard. Just leave it go until Monday.

Mr. Hubert. Just let it stay as it was until Monday?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And he so told you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had he made up his mind at that time to close the club for the entire weekend?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he just said for Friday and Saturday night at that time. He said something about cleaning up later on, or something, and then he come back later and he left.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see, how long did he stay, before we get to this point?

Mr. Crafard. He was there maybe a half hour or 45 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. What else did he do there besides converse with you as you have already testified?

Mr. Crafard. That was about it right there, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make any phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he called his sister. I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember that, yourself, or do you think perhaps you picked that up from reading about it somewhere?

Mr. Crafard. No; I believe that he called his sister on the phone right by the front door.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that is the public phone?

Mr. Crafard. No. We had three business phones on the same line in the club.

Mr. Hubert. The same number, you mean?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, with the same number.

Mr. Hubert. But there were different lines, you could make different calls from them?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. There was one phone with three extensions then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Two extensions?

Mr. Crafard. Two extensions.

Mr. Hubert. Was there a public phone there, too?

Mr. Crafard. The public phone was in the back in the hallway. I believe he called his sister from the front door phone there and talked to her and he told her he was coming over, or something.

Mr. Hubert. You overheard that?

Mr. Crafard. It was either at that time or later in the afternoon when he come back.

Mr. Hubert. On that first time that he was there, which was from 2:30 to about 3:15—would that be a fair estimate?

Mr. Crafard. About 3:15 or 3:30, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s do this. You mentioned a moment ago that he came in about 2:30 and stayed about a half hour to three-quarters of an hour. He came at 2:30 and left at about 3:30.

Then there is a possibility he stayed there an hour on his first visit.

Mr. Crafard. He might have been there anywhere between a half hour and three-quarters of an hour.

Mr. Hubert. Anyway, roughly between 3 and 3:30 is when he left?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And during that period he made one phone call, or you are not sure of that?

Mr. Crafard. I am not positive. I think he did, but I am not positive.

Mr. Hubert. If it should turn out that he did not call his sister on that occasion, do you recall any other phone calls that he made during the first visit?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure. It seems like there was a phone call to his brother or something that he called long distance either then or later in the day or something.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know he had called long distance?

Mr. Crafard. Because he had me get the address, get the number or something. He had me give him the phone number.

Mr. Hubert. Of which brother?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was the brother in Chicago—in Detroit, the Cobo Laundry.

Mr. Hubert. You are talking about Earl, aren’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that is right.

Mr. Hubert. He did not have Earl’s number?

Mr. Crafard. He had it, he had it in his book at home, and I had it wrote down in the book of phone numbers there in the office.

Mr. Hubert. And you then gave him the number, or dialed for him?

Mr. Crafard. I gave it to him, I believe, and he dialed it.

Mr. Hubert. You were present when he dialed?

Mr. Crafard. Andy and I were both there in the main part of the club where he was at.

Mr. Hubert. There was no one else in the club at that time?

Mr. Crafard. No; just Andy and I.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why he didn’t use his office phone?

Mr. Crafard. No; I have no idea, except that during the day when there was nobody else there he would more frequently use the front phone than he would the office phone. We’d been out there talking. We could all three—he’d have the table space to work and everything, count his money out, figure out the papers, and everything.

Mr. Hubert. You are unable to fix the time of that call to his brother, is that right?

Mr. Crafard. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When did he come back after having left at, roughly, between 3 and 3:30?

Mr. Crafard. He come back about, I believe, about 4:30 or 5 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that he was gone about an hour to an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I would say so. He asked me if I wanted to go to his sister’s with him. He made quite a point of it, and I told him I’d prefer to stay at the club.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by making quite a point of it?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me two or three times about it.

Mr. Hubert. Did it strike you as odd?

Mr. Crafard. No; it just struck me as if he kind of wanted me to go. He thought it wouldn’t be—didn’t think it would be very good for me to stay there at the club by myself.

Mr. Hubert. Why not?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you that he thought——

Mr. Crafard. He said he thought it would be better for me to go with him than to stay at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him why he had such thought?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t. I didn’t think about it.

Mr. Hubert. What did you think of the nature of that remark to you?

Mr. Crafard. It didn’t have no effect on me whatsoever at the time.

Mr. Hubert. You had stayed at the club alone before, hadn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you think it rather odd that he would suggest in some way that it wouldn’t be proper for you to stay at the club?

Mr. Crafard. At that time it didn’t strike me at all. I didn’t even think about it. I was still pretty shook up, myself.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been doing any work in the interval when he was gone?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make any phone calls when he came back?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he called his sister at that time. I’m not positive, but I believe he called her at that time and told her he’d be right over.

Mr. Hubert. When did he leave after having returned?

Mr. Crafard. He was only there for about 10 or 15, maybe 20 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he call his sister twice?

Mr. Crafard. He called her then, I’m almost positive that he called her that time and told her he’d be right over.

I told him that I’d prefer to stay at the club because, well, I knew his sister was highly emotional from what little I had talked to her on the telephone a couple of times, she called for Jack and she always seemed very nervous on the phone and everything.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand you now, it is quite clear that he did call his sister Eva?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When he came back the second time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I’m almost positive.

Mr. Hubert. That is when he stayed about 10 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He left about 4:30 or 5, right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Having stayed there only 10 minutes, whatever time he did come?

Mr. Crafard. He stayed only 10 or 15 minutes. He hadn’t been there very long.

Mr. Hubert. From the time that you first heard of the President’s death until he left that second time to go to his sister’s, had he called his sister once or twice?

Mr. Crafard. I believe, that was the second time he called her that day, I’m not positive.

Mr. Hubert. So that the first call must have been through the first, during the first visit, mustn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so, because he only made the one phone call when he came back the last time.

Mr. Hubert. Now, with relation to the call to his brother, is your memory fresh now as to whether that call was made during his first visit between 2:30 and 3 o’clock, 2:30 and 3:30, or on his second visit when he stayed 10 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. That was made on the first visit, I’m almost positive of that. I can only recall of one phone call he made and that was to his sister when he come back the second time.

Mr. Hubert. He was there only 10 minutes, he called her and he asked you several times?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me two or three times to go with him and I told him I’d rather not because she was highly nervous and I didn’t care to be around her. I hardly never——

Mr. Hubert. What did he say to you about being worried about your staying at the club?

Mr. Crafard. He just thought it would be better for me to be with somebody than to be by myself, I guess, because I was shook up, kind of shook up about what had happened.

Mr. Hubert. How were you showing that? I mean, what manifestations.

Mr. Crafard. I guess more or less a look in my face, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to indicate that he feared for your safety?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. But what you are telling us is that at the time you had no reaction whatsoever to that suggestion of his that it would be better for you not to stay at the club?