TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD (continued 3)

Mr. Crafard. I had no reaction at all to it.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know whether he meant your safety or your own personal feelings or really what he meant?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t ask him what he meant?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So he just then openly allowed you to stay on?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was Armstrong still there during that time?

Mr. Crafard. No; Andy—I was alone at the club.

Mr. Hubert. When did Andy leave?

Mr. Crafard. Andy left just shortly after Jack had left the first time.

Mr. Hubert. About what, 5 or 10 minutes after?

Mr. Crafard. About maybe 10 or 15 minutes later. When Jack was there the second time before he left, he give me a sign, he told me to make up a sign that said we’d be closed Friday and Saturday, put it downstairs about 6:30.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do it in pencil or pen?

Mr. Crafard. I made it with pencil and put it downstairs.

Mr. Hubert. Was that before or after he asked you to——

Mr. Crafard. That was after he left the second time.

Mr. Hubert. No; you misunderstood my question. Did he ask you to make that sign before or after he asked you to go to Eva’s with him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe, that was afterwards, after the first stay there at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. Crafard. Make up a sign that we’d be closed. He had a closed sign. He said, “Take it down there and put it downstairs about 7:30 or quarter to eight”, and he said, “Wait until the other clubs open. Let them”—he said, I think it was, “Let them damn guys stay open”, or something to that effect, quite similar to the wording there, I’m not sure what the wording was, that wording was.

Mr. Hubert. He got over to you, though, that he was going to close, that he wanted you to prepare and put up a sign, but to do it in such a way that his competitors wouldn’t know he was anticipating that?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you so in so many words?

Mr. Crafard. He said, wait until they opened before I put it up. He said something like “Let those damn fools open if they want”, or something to that effect, or “Stay open”, or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any other instructions?

Mr. Crafard. That was about it. He asked me where I was going to eat and I told him and he said something about he’d call me in about an hour. He said to go ahead and eat then and he said “I’ll call you in about an hour.”

So he called me—I don’t even remember what he said then. It was just I guess he asked me if there had been any phone calls or something. It wasn’t much. The conversation wasn’t but about a dozen words at most.

Mr. Hubert. Had there been any phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. No; not while I was at the club. I waited until about 30 minutes after he left and then I went to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you eat?

Mr. Crafard. To the drugstore, Walgreen Drugstore.

Mr. Hubert. You ate alone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You came back to the club?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What time was it when you got back?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 6:20 or 6:30, something like that, I guess—a little later.

Mr. Hubert. When did you next hear from Ruby or see him?

Mr. Crafard. I never saw him again until the next morning. He called me from Eva’s, talked with me for a few minutes, about an hour after he left. I just got back from eating.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know he was at Eva’s?

Mr. Crafard. He said he was at Eva’s, and then I could hear her voice. They was watching on television.

Mr. Hubert. What was the subject of that conversation?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I can recall, he just asked me if there had been any calls, as far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. And you simply told him no?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you about the sign?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told him I had it ready and he made sure, he told me again what time—not to put it up until after about 7:30 or a quarter to eight.

Mr. Hubert. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. Crafard. It was just a very few minutes. It couldn’t have been more than two dozen words spoken at the most.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any indication as to what his plans were?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything about going to church?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. I think he said something about I could reach him at Eva’s if I needed him for anything, I think he said.

Mr. Hubert. And this you think was between 6:15 and 6:30, or long in there?

Mr. Crafard. I prefer to say between 6:30 and 7.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do with the rest of the day?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed at the club and watched it on television.

Mr. Hubert. You were alone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Nobody else came at all?

Mr. Crafard. No. The door was locked downstairs, nobody could get up.

Mr. Hubert. Did you put up the sign?

Mr. Crafard. I waited until about a quarter to eight before I put up the sign.

Mr. Hubert. Were the other clubs open?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they were closed too. I am not sure. I am not positive about that.

Mr. Hubert. Any phone calls come at all the rest of the evening?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. You were there alone that night?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You just watched television until you went to bed?

Mr. Crafard. I watched television for quite a while. I watched television most of the afternoon. It seemed like the more I watched it, the worse it made me feel, in a way, so I just quit watching it. I had a couple of books there and I read most of the afternoon and the evening.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go to bed?

Mr. Crafard. I must have went to bed probably about 9 or 9:30, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. And there were no phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. I believe there was—about midnight I believe it was, there was a call. I don’t even know why this girl called. I don’t even know why she called. I talked to her for a few minutes and then I took the phone out of the office. It had a big long cord on it and I carried it in by my bed. I stretched out on the bed and we talked for quite a long time.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the girl?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t even remember her name. I had never met her before or ever heard from her again.

Mr. Hubert. Who did she say she was?

Mr. Crafard. She give me her name. I don’t remember what her name was.

Mr. Hubert. What did she say her business was, why did she call?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about wanting a job with the club or something.

Mr. Hubert. It was not a girl that worked at the club in any way?

Mr. Crafard. No; she was not connected with the club.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think she did identify herself?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I know she identified herself.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t remember who she was?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You had never seen her before?

Mr. Crafard. No. I had never met the girl.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t recognize the name?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize the voice?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. As far as you could say then this was a complete stranger to you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you speak to her?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, we must have talked altogether for about an hour, an hour and a half, and then hung up, and about 15 or 20 minutes she called back and talked for a couple of hours.

Mr. Hubert. Now you talked to this girl for a total of about 3 hours that night?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What was it all about?

Mr. Crafard. Just more or less talking, getting acquainted. More than anything over the phone, the best I could.

Mr. Hubert. Did she indicate where she was?

Mr. Crafard. She was baby sitting for a friend of hers. She give me to understand she was to catch a bus out of town the next morning, about 5:30.

Mr. Hubert. In the course of the conversation did you try to find out why she had called the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. She called, she said, to start with, when we first started talking, she had called to find out about a job in the club. I don’t know why she done it that way—that is what she said, as far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was she aware that the President was dead?

Mr. Crafard. Yes: I believe we discussed that a little bit too. T don’t recall what was said.

Mr. Hubert. The first time you spoke to her, you said it was about midnight—right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You had been asleep?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I had just started dozing off when the phone rang.

Mr. Hubert. And you spoke to her then about an hour?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe—I’m not sure—I think Little Lynn called.

Mr. Hubert. What time did she call?

Mr. Crafard. Just the one time that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. What time?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was about 9:30 or 10 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. What did she say?

Mr. Crafard. After I laid down.

Mr. Hubert. What did she want?

Mr. Crafard. She wanted to talk to Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you what about?

Mr. Crafard. No; she just said it was urgent. I believe I told her Jack was at Eva’s and give her Eva’s number.

Mr. Hubert. Where was she?

Mr. Crafard. She was at her home in Fort Worth, as I understood.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a long-distance call?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Any other workers, waitresses or girls come in that night?

Mr. Crafard. No, none. Jack had had Andy call all of them to tell them not to come in.

Mr. Hubert. Now when you ended the conversation with this girl that began about midnight, was there an arrangement for one or the other of you to call up again in a few minutes?

Mr. Crafard. No; I told her I’d like to talk to her again. I told her I’d like to meet her. I told her I’d like to get acquainted with her. I tried to get her to talk a little longer. She said she had to hang up. And then she called me back 15 or 20 minutes later.

Mr. Hubert. And then you continued to talk for a couple of hours?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How did that end up?

Mr. Crafard. Some one of the younger kids there woke up or something.

Mr. Hubert. Had you made any arrangement to meet her, to see her?

Mr. Crafard. No; no definite arrangements. I tried to get her to tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. She wouldn’t even tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. I told her I’d meet her before she caught the bus, but she wouldn’t tell me where she was leaving.

Mr. Hubert. This conversation in fact, Larry, was kind of a love making on the phone deal, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. More or less what you might say an attempt.

Mr. Hubert. And part of that attempt of course would be trying to find out who she was and where you could meet her, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Who she was and where I could meet her at her likes and her dislikes, such as that.

Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t tell you any of that?

Mr. Crafard. No, she wouldn’t tell me where I could meet her at or anything, but other than we really talked as if we known each other for months, actually.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t write down her name, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. I think I wrote her name down, but I never could get her phone number.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you write it down?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I wrote it down in that notebook I had. I’m not sure. I don’t have her name now. I never had her name after I left Texas, I know that.

Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize that name in the notebook?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not even sure of that.

Mr. Hubert. We will have an opportunity.

Mr. Griffin. Did she sound like a young girl? How old a person was she?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she said she was 19, 18 or 19 years old.

Mr. Hubert. She told you, didn’t she, that she had to be at the bus station at 5 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was 5, 5:30 or 6 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. There is only one bus station there, isn’t there?

Mr. Crafard. Two bus stations, Trailways and Greyhound.

Mr. Hubert. Did you find out which one?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t tell you that?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you what time the bus was going to leave?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about she had to leave where she was at 5:30 or 6 o’clock to catch the bus.

Mr. Hubert. To catch the bus?

Mr. Crafard. To catch the bus.

Mr. Hubert. To go where?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said she was going to Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. Did you try to find out what buses from either station were leaving around that time?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t call the bus depots or anything. I wasn’t that interested in it.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you were interested enough in her to talk with her for 3 hours. I wondered if you weren’t interested enough to find out if you couldn’t meet her by going to one of the bus stations.

Mr. Crafard. She talked—she was leaving town and didn’t figure on being back for quite a little while.

Mr. Hubert. When did she tell you that?

Mr. Crafard. Shortly after we started—I believe just shortly before we finished the conversation I started to find out where to meet her at.

Mr. Hubert. Which was it? What killed your interest? Is that what you are trying to tell us?

Mr. Crafard. I figured she was leaving town, there wasn’t no sense in going to too much trouble to try and meet her if she was leaving town and wasn’t figuring on being back.

First, she talked like she was going to be gone for the weekend, and then just shortly before we finished the conversation, she give me to understand that she would be gone on a prolonged, for a prolonged period of time.

Mr. Hubert. So this girl then, who was going for a long period of time, you suggest was willing to talk with you for 3 hours and the conversation, the general tenor of which was sort of love making on the phone, as it were?

Mr. Crafard. As you would put it; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you find out or try to find out her phone number?

Mr. Crafard. I asked for her—I tried to get her phone number where she was at. I tried to get her home phone number. I tried to get her address. She wouldn’t.

Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t give you any of that?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Can you give us any idea what subject you could possibly have talked about for that length of time?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly we discussed our different hobbies, our likes and dislikes. Like I say, the conversation was more as if we had known each other for 2 or 3 weeks or better.

Mr. Hubert. You must have made more than one effort to try to get her phone number and her address.

Mr. Crafard. Several times I tried.

Mr. Hubert. What reason did she ascribe for not giving it to you?

Mr. Crafard. She said she was at a neighbor’s place. She was babysitting for some friends of hers.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; but you had asked her for her home address as well?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Her home phone?

Mr. Crafard. She just wouldn’t give me any reason for not giving me her home phone number that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see, that means that she was a person who was going out of town and did not want to talk to you any more, and didn’t want to give you her number.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Or where you could reach her?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. But she spoke to you for 3 hours?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Larry, when she called did she ask for anyone in particular?

Mr. Crafard. She asked if it was the Carousel.

Mr. Griffin. And then what did she say?

Mr. Crafard. And I said yes, and I asked her if there was something I could do for her. I believe she said she had called in answer to an ad in the paper.

Mr. Griffin. Was there an ad in the paper?

Mr. Crafard. Ruby continuously run an ad for girls. After I got to talking to her—it’s kind of funny as all get-out—getting ready to leave town the next morning and then calling in in response to this ad.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you got the impression after talking with her for a while that she really hadn’t called in response to that ad.

Mr. Crafard. I got the impression she was kind of a kook, in a way. I have known of girls to do this, call up strange people and talk to them as long as the person will talk to them.

Mr. Hubert. Do you do that too?

Mr. Crafard. No; I have never done that, not that way.

Mr. Hubert. So it was not your normal way of doing?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. And it was the middle of the night, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Why do you think you did that?

Mr. Crafard. Just talked to her, somebody to talk to. I wasn’t sleepy. Somebody to talk to more than anything.

Mr. Hubert. You see the point—that that would be a story that would be much easier to accept if the time element was not present.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I understand.

Mr. Hubert. You must admit it is rather extraordinary for two strangers to speak as long as you did on two separate occasions when apparently there was no particular purpose about it, and no particular future to it.

Mr. Crafard. I can’t explain it.

Mr. Hubert. Did she indicate that she was somebody with the Carousel operation, what it was like?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did she say what she wanted to do there, what kind of a job she wanted?

Mr. Crafard. It was a job for waitresses was what he run all the time.

Mr. Hubert. Did she mention that is what she was applying for?

Mr. Crafard. She mentioned the fact that she was calling in connection with the ad.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you must have asked her what she looked like.

Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; I asked her for a general description of herself, measurements and weight.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what she said?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall, she give me her general height and weight, color of her eyes, her hair.

Mr. Hubert. What was all that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you don’t remember whether she was a blonde or a brunette?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she said she had brown hair.

Mr. Hubert. Then you do recall about that?

Mr. Crafard. I think that is what she said. I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. What about her height? What mental impression did you form as to what sort of a person she must look like?

Mr. Crafard. From the description she give me, I figured she must be a fairly nice looking girl.

Mr. Hubert. I judged that you had that impression. Did she have a good figure?

Mr. Crafard. If I recall right, she more than likely must have had. That is about 90 percent of a girl’s looks anyway.

Mr. Hubert. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. I figure that is about 90 percent of a girl’s looks, physical looks, is her figure.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you are attentive to that sort of thing?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; like any other man.

Mr. Hubert. I am not critical. It brings me back to the point that you said you didn’t remember what she looked like. I suggest perhaps that you do. It is a little bit more than you are telling us.

Mr. Crafard. I figured that she must have been a pretty nice—had a pretty decent figure from her description and everything, or I wouldn’t have thought she was a fairly good looking girl if she hadn’t give a pretty good description of her figure. But as far as the measurements, I can’t remember the exact measurements or anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. But she was a brunette and she had a good figure. Did she say anything about her weight?

Mr. Crafard. She must have been fairly light. It seemed attractive to me because I like a smaller female. It must have been about 100 or 105, something like that. But I don’t remember the exact weight or anything.

Mr. Hubert. But you do remember that the weight was attractive to you?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been light.

Mr. Hubert. And therefore it was light. Are there any other preferences of yours that would help us to determine that she told you?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can think of, other than a good figure and a fairly decent height.

Mr. Hubert. How did she describe her face?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t really remember how she described her face, it has been so blasted long ago.

Mr. Hubert. When the first part of this conversation ended, did she tell you she was going to call you back?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I said something to her about calling me back if she got the chance, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did she say why she had to end the conversation, the first conversation?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about the kids she was babysitting with, or something.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that she had to attend to them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that she had to end the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. To tell you the truth what I thought, I kind of had the idea all the way through it sounded to me like it was a bunch of older guys and gals in the background giggling all the time. It seems to me like it was a dare they had put her up to just to see how long a person would talk to her, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Then there were people?

Mr. Crafard. It sounded like.

Mr. Hubert. Other than babies?

Mr. Crafard. She kept saying she was babysitting with these kids and that was all that was there was these young kids.

Mr. Hubert. But you heard adults in the background?

Mr. Crafard. It sounded to me like it was at least teenagers, kids at least in their midteens, if not older, and I kind of had the idea that they had probably put her up to a dare.

Mr. Hubert. And you were willing to go along with that?

Mr. Crafard. Sure; why not? I would probably never see her.

Mr. Hubert. And you haven’t?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: You may have met some girls since then, but in any case those that you have met have not identified themselves or become identified with that girl?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That would take us until about 3 o’clock in the morning wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Right about that; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you asleep?

Mr. Crafard. I think I dozed off about then, and by then this call came from Jack.

Mr. Hubert. What time was that?

Mr. Crafard. That must have been between 3:30 and 3:45, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. How long after the call with the girl?

Mr. Crafard. It wasn’t but about—it couldn’t have been more than a half hour.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack indicate that he had been trying to get you but the line had been busy?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What did he want?

Mr. Crafard. He wanted me to get dressed to meet him downstairs with the camera, Polaroid Land camera, with extra films and extra bulbs.

Mr. Hubert. That is the camera you told us was previously used for taking the pictures of customers?

Mr. Crafard. Taking the pictures of what?

Mr. Hubert. Of customers.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you whether you knew how to operate that camera?

Mr. Crafard. I think there had been some discussion about the camera on a couple—on a previous occasion about it.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, you had operated it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had operated it at the club a couple of times.

Mr. Hubert. He knew you had?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think there was something said a couple of nights before, something about it.

Mr. Hubert. You had taken pictures of the customers, as you frequently did, to give them as they danced with the girls? And he knew that you had done that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, see; yea, he knew that I had done it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you if you knew how to operate one?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me if I knew how to change the film, that is what it was. I told him yes.

Mr. Hubert. So what happened then?

Mr. Crafard. So I went ahead and got dressed. I had just got dressed and got the film and bulbs and was starting to get the camera when this guy from the garage called up and told me Jack was downstairs and wanted me to hurry. So I went out downstairs and got in the car.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the guy from the garage?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what his name was.

Mr. Hubert. A white man?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a white boy.

Mr. Hubert. White woman?

Mr. Crafard. White man.

Mr. Hubert. White man. Did he telephone you or come up?

Mr. Crafard. He telephoned up. He couldn’t have come up. The door was locked.

Mr. Hubert. So Jack was there?

Mr. Crafard. Outside in the car when I went down, Jack and George Senator.

Mr. Hubert. How long was that after you had spoken to Jack?

Mr. Crafard. It couldn’t have been more than a half hour at the most, because I hadn’t much more than got dressed when he called from upstairs.

Mr. Hubert. As I understood it, about a half hour after you finished talking to the girl you were just about dozing when Jack called?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And said he would be right down?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You got up and dressed?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You fetched the camera?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And the bulbs and the film?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you load the camera then?

Mr. Crafard. The camera was loaded.

Mr. Hubert. It was already loaded?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he know that?

Mr. Crafard. He knew it was loaded but nobody had any idea exactly how many—we didn’t know for sure how many pictures were left in it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you take some extra film?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It was all there?

Mr. Crafard. A roll of extra film.

Mr. Hubert. All of that wouldn’t take a half hour, would it?

Mr. Crafard. I washed up, I imagine, before I got dressed. I usually did.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you where you were going?

Mr. Crafard. Not until after we went out there. We took off and I said, “Where are we going?” He didn’t say anything. He went on out there.

Mr. Hubert. When he called by telephone the first time did he tell you where he was?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure. I don’t remember whether he did or not.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he was?

Mr. Crafard. I took it for granted he was at the home as far as I figured.

Mr. Hubert. Was there anything that you now recall that would help you remember as to whether he was calling from home or not?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. So in fact you really don’t know where he was?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you think it was as much as a half hour after he called that you got the call from the garageman to come down?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And he and Senator were in the car?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Senator was in front?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; Jack and Senator were both in front.

Mr. Hubert. You got in the back?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. And you drove off?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. It is at that time I think you said you asked him what this was all about?

Mr. Crafard. I think I said something about where are we going.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Mr. Crafard. He said “I want you to take some pictures.”

Mr. Hubert. And did you ask him where?

Mr. Crafard. He was driving then.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him of what?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall if I asked him about what or not. I think him and Senator were talking.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what they were talking about?

Mr. Crafard. Something about an ad, I think an ad, a sign or something like that. When we got out there, it was “Impeach Earl Warren” sign at the corner of the North Central Expressway.

Mr. Hubert. And what?

Mr. Crafard. North Central and Hall, I believe it is.

Mr. Griffin. Would you describe this intersection that you think that you took this sign—

Mr. Crafard. It was just like most of the expressway intersections are. Around—come around under this bridge under an overcrossing and a road into the side here, and another one comes square into it here over the other side of the bridge. It was a building set in here.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you this: How do you know it was the North Expressway and Hall?

Mr. Crafard. The sign on the corner.

Mr. Hubert. You saw the sign that said that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. We parked right beside the sign.

Mr. Hubert. And you have no questions about your memory on that? It was next to a sign saying North Expressway?

Mr. Crafard. It was on the North Central Expressway. I believe it was the North Central and Hall.

Mr. Hubert. You parked by the sign which designated both streets?

Mr. Crafard. I believe—yes; I believe that was the name of the streets. I am not sure of the side street, but I believe it was Hall.

Mr. Griffin. You drove out of town from the Carousel Club. Did you drive north on the North Central Expressway?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know which way. I don’t even know exactly which way the North Central Expressway runs.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: This overpass that was near the intersection, did you go under the overpass before you got to the sign?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now the sign, was that located facing traffic that comes into town or traffic that goes out of town?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was facing traffic coming into town; I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. And was there a place to park near that sign?

Mr. Crafard. On a side street that I believe is Hall.

Mr. Griffin. Could you pull off what you believe to be Hall Street, could you pull off the road at that point and drive right up next to the sign?

Mr. Crafard. There was a curb up—you would have to go over the curb to do so, I believe. I think we parked along the curb here and got out and walked across this open, small open space to the building the sign was on.

Mr. Griffin. How large was the sign?

Mr. Crafard. It was I think about 3-foot long and about the same height, 3 or 4 foot.

Mr. Griffin. And what kind of a standard or support was it on?

Mr. Crafard. It was on a building.

Mr. Griffin. It was actually plastered on a building?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. About how high up on the building was it?

Mr. Crafard. I’d say about 5 or 6 foot.

Mr. Hubert. How many pictures did you take?

Mr. Crafard. I took three photographs.

Mr. Hubert. Were those instantaneous print pictures?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; 10-second Polaroid.

Mr. Hubert. After you had finished taking them, what happened?

Mr. Crafard. We got back in the car and went back into town to one of those cafes and had coffee.

Mr. Hubert. What is the name of the cafe?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of the cafe. I could take a person right to it, but I can’t tell you the name.

Mr. Hubert. How far away was it from the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. About 2½ blocks.

Mr. Hubert. Which way?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it would be south.

Mr. Hubert. What was it, on Commerce Street?

Mr. Crafard. It was half a block off Commerce, two blocks down Commerce and half a block off.

Mr. Hubert. Was Senator with you then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, the three of us were together. We went in and had coffee, and I believe Jack showed the pictures to the man there in the cafe.

Mr. Hubert. What did Jack say about the pictures at any time, commencing from the time you took them till——

Mr. Crafard. There was some reference made between the address on the pictures and the address on an ad he had saw in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Who made that reference?

Mr. Crafard. Ruby made the reference.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the context of the reference, what the idea was contained in his reference?

Mr. Crafard. The fact that there was quite a similarity—he said something about the numbers were the same when turned around a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that the numbers——

Mr. Crafard. In the address.

Mr. Hubert. The numbers in the address of the sign of which you had taken a picture were similar to those in an advertisement of some sort?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I could understand, a hate advertisement that he had saw in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have that hate advertisement with him?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did he express his thoughts as to what he proposed to do with those pictures?

Mr. Crafard. He said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see who had a box number, a certain box, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Other than that, did he mention what he wanted the pictures for?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in the cafe?

Mr. Crafard. We was there long enough to drink coffee, and that is about it.

Mr. Hubert. That would be about how many minutes?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, maybe 20 or 25 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go next?

Mr. Crafard. Then they took me over to the Carousel Club and dropped me off at the Carousel Club.

Mr. Hubert. What time was that?

Mr. Crafard. This was about 5, maybe 5:20. I’d say between 5 and 5:30.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do next?

Mr. Crafard. I went back upstairs and put the camera up.

Mr. Hubert. And then what?

Mr. Crafard. I think I picked up a book and read another book or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. Read a book or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t sleepy at that time.

Mr. Hubert. I said did you go to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. What is the next thing that happened?

Mr. Crafard. About 8:30, I think it was, I called Jack. When I had been with them I said something about dogfood, and Jack had said he’d bring some back, so I called him about 8:30 and said—I guess I woke him up or something. He was fairly shook up over the phone and chewed me out a little bit about waking him up at that time in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever wakened him up at that time before?

Mr. Crafard. No; I had never called him before in the morning, like that.

Mr. Hubert. What made you do so on this occasion?

Mr. Crafard. He wanted me to be sure and feed the dogs, and I didn’t have any dogfood to feed them. He was usually up by that time in the morning, the way he talked. He said he always got up at 7 o’clock every morning, and I called him, figured when he did come down he could bring dogfood down.

Mr. Hubert. You expressed two thoughts a little while ago. I want to, there again, get the factual basis for those thoughts or impressions. One, that he was shook up, and the other that he chewed you out. Those are both impressions that are based upon facts. What were the facts?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the way he answered the phone, he was kind of teed off, you know, sort of teed off. He answered the phone in a grumpy way. He had never spoke to me on the phone that way before.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Mr. Crafard. He just give me the daylights for calling him.

Mr. Hubert. How did he give you the daylights?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what he said exactly.

Mr. Hubert. Did he curse?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say that you were stupid? Did he use some words that you didn’t like, that gave you the impression he was mad at you?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what he said, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, whatever words they were, they were not polite?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Shall I put it that way?

Mr. Crafard. It was his general way of speaking to me, more like—he talked to me more like he always did with Andy, when he was mad with Andy, when he was bawling Andy out for something.

Mr. Hubert. Was it the tone of voice more than the actual words?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was both. One thing his voice was very loud, and he knew how that grated on me.

Mr. Hubert. He had talked to you like that before?

Mr. Crafard. On one occasion, and I had stopped him. I told him I didn’t like it. I told him if he wanted to talk to me, to talk to me, not to yell at me.

Mr. Hubert. How long ago had that been before?

Mr. Crafard. Just shortly after I went to work for him.

Mr. Hubert. And he had never done it since?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. But he did do it on this occasion?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You also said that he seemed shook up, I think, or what were the words you used there?

Mr. Griffin. That are used?

Mr. Hubert. No; that he used.

Mr. Griffin. I think he said “shook up.”

Mr. Crafard. I believe I did.

Mr. Hubert. And that he had chewed you out. I had asked you for a separate basis of facts for both of those, both of those mental impressions you got. Is your explanation intended to cover both of them?

Mr. Crafard. About the only thing I could figure, it would be the same for the other.

Mr. Hubert. As I gather it then——

Mr. Crafard. He was shook up, mad.

Mr. Hubert. He was mad at you?

Mr. Crafard. That is what I believe I was using the term “shook up” to mean.

Mr. Hubert. He was mad at you and he chewed you out.

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention anything about the President?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was it simply that here was a man who had been asleep and who had been wakened and he was mad because somebody had wakened him up?

Mr. Crafard. It could have been. That is what I took it as.

Mr. Hubert. That is what you took it as?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He used the tone of voice with you that he had used once before which you didn’t like, and you told him about?

Mr. Crafard. He said something else. I don’t remember what it was he said.

Mr. Hubert. What was it like?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. What was it like in addition to this? Was it something particularly more aggravating to you?

Mr. Crafard. I would think it was pertaining to the President or something there. I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. Hubert. Well, pass it. Perhaps we will come back to it in a little while. How long did that conversation last, about?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe 5 minutes at the most.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about the dogs?

Mr. Crafard. He said he would bring some dog food down.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you when?

Mr. Crafard. No; he said, “When you come.”

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you when to come?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. This you say was about 8:30?

Mr. Crafard. About 8:30.

Mr. Hubert. It lasted 5 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had Andy come yet?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. Had Andy come yet?

Mr. Crafard. No; Andy wasn’t coming in. The club was closed.

Mr. Hubert. The club still hadn’t been cleaned up?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mr. Crafard. I think I went over and had breakfast.

Mr. Hubert. Right away?

Mr. Crafard. Shortly after that. Within 10 or 15 minutes, it was.

Mr. Hubert. You were still dressed, I take it, because you had never undressed?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. You hadn’t been to sleep at all?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You hadn’t been to sleep at all that night?

Mr. Crafard. Not very much, dozed off a couple of times or so, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. I mean what with reading the book after you went to bed and the telephone conversation, or both of them, with the girl?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And then the visit outside with Jack and then going back and reading some more, and then the call at 8:30, as I understand you, correct me if I am wrong, you didn’t really sleep at all that night?

Mr. Crafard. No; that’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go to breakfast?

Mr. Crafard. I went over to the Walgreen drugstore.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get back?

Mr. Crafard. I was gone about a half hour, approximately—probably 9:15 or 9:30.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What happened then?

Mr. Crafard. I sat around the club there for quite a while. Then I decided to leave, so I took off.

Mr. Hubert. When did you reach your decision to leave?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. It must have been about 11 or 11:15, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any money?

Mr. Crafard. I had $5, and that was it.

Mr. Hubert. Were you owed any money?

Mr. Crafard. Like I say, there was no—he had come to an agreement to give me some money, but I didn’t know how much he had figured on giving me, or anything. I think I took $5 out of the till, if I remember correct, and left a draw slip in the till.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any money other than the $5?

Mr. Crafard. I think I had $2 in my pocket.

Mr. Hubert. So you had $7, all together?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you going?

Mr. Crafard. I went to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Had you determined at that time that you were going to Michigan?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had wrote to my sister quite a while before that, and I had got no answer, and I had been worrying, wondering what the devil was wrong there because she never failed to answer me right away.

Mr. Hubert. Was that the reason that you decided to go, to find out?

Mr. Crafard. It was the only reason that I know of I was going.

Mr. Hubert. What I want to get at is what was your motivation for leaving.

Mr. Crafard. Well, I had been wanting to go up to Michigan to see my sister and find out what was wrong.

Mr. Hubert. And that was the reason you went?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, this little rhubarb you had with Jack wasn’t the real cause of it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That had nothing to do with your decision?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave any note to say what you were doing?

Mr. Crafard. No; I left the key down with the boy at the garage, and told him to give it to Jack when Jack come in.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave any verbal message that you were leaving?

Mr. Crafard. I think I told him to tell Jack I said goodby.

Mr. Hubert. Don’t you think you owed him more than that?

Mr. Crafard. I never stopped to give it a thought.

Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t you call him and tell him that you wanted to go and see your sister?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. I haven’t got any idea.

Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t you wait until he came in and tell him?

Mr. Crafard. I made up my mind to go, and that was it.

Mr. Hubert. How did you propose to travel that distance with $7?

Mr. Crafard. Hitchhike.

Mr. Hubert. Have you done that before in your life?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. You told absolutely nobody but the garageman that you were leaving; is that right?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right. He is the only one I spoke to. I gave him the key and told him to tell Jack I said goodby.

Mr. Hubert. You did not tell him where you were going?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you in fact go? What route did you take?

Mr. Crafard. I went out and took, I think it is 77, I believe it is—right outside of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you walk there?

Mr. Crafard. I walked out about 15 or 18 blocks, I think it is, and a guy I had met out at the fair picked me up. He saw me.

Mr. Hubert. Did you arrange for him to pick you up?

Mr. Crafard. No; he was going by, he saw me, and he recognized me.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what his name is. He worked out there for a while. I never did know his name. I don’t think he knew my name. He recognized me as having worked out there.

Mr. Hubert. You were on the highway hitchhiking at that time?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have a bag?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How large was it?

Mr. Crafard. It was a regular satchel and I had another bag.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of a car was he driving?

Mr. Crafard. I think he had a 1934 or 1935 Chevy, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. He was alone?

Mr. Crafard. He had his son with him.

Mr. Hubert. How old is his son?

Mr. Crafard. Nine or ten years old, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. How far did you go with him?

Mr. Crafard. He took me about 20 or 25 or 30 miles out. It wasn’t in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell him where you were heading?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told him I was going up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Did you discuss the route to go to Michigan?

Mr. Crafard. No; I knew the route I wanted.

Mr. Hubert. Had you looked it up?

Mr. Crafard. I had been across that route previously and knew.

Mr. Hubert. Hitchhiking?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long before?

Mr. Crafard. My wife and I left Dallas in 1963. We went up 77 to 66.

Mr. Hubert. But you weren’t hitchhiking then, were you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; we hitchhiked. She wouldn’t take the bus. I had money for her to take the bus with her and the kids, and she refused to do so.

Mr. Hubert. You told us earlier you had gone by bus.

Mr. Crafard. We went part way by bus.

Mr. Hubert. Which part did you go by bus?

Mr. Crafard. We went I think from Sacramento, took the bus out.

Mr. Hubert. You hitchhiked to Sacramento?

Mr. Crafard. We hitchhiked to Bakersfield, and picked up a motorcycle I had there and went on the motorcycle. I worked in California there for about 3 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. When did you go by bus?

Mr. Crafard. From Sacramento we took the bus on up to Washington.

Mr. Hubert. But you hitchhiked the previous time?

Mr. Crafard. To Bakersfield.

Mr. Hubert. With your wife?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And it was at her request? She wanted to hitchhike?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Rather than go by bus?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did she give any reason for that?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t want to leave me.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t want to what?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t want to leave, let me go by myself or something.

Mr. Hubert. But you said you offered to take her by bus.

Mr. Crafard. I offered to send her by bus and I’d hitchhike. That is what I figured on doing. I had the money to send her and the two boys, but I didn’t have money enough to take the bus myself.

Mr. Hubert. So the three of you hitchhiked—the four of you hitchhiked?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. There were two young babies and you and your wife?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any difficulty with that?

Mr. Crafard. None whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Now you have hitchhiked a lot, Larry—isn’t it true that it is much harder for a group of people to hitchhike than an individual?

Mr. Crafard. It depends on the group. You take a group like that and it is much easier for a family group like that to get a hitchhike than it is for a single person.

Mr. Hubert. Why?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, people seem to stop a lot faster for a family group like that than they would for a single person.

Mr. Hubert. But you had never hitchhiked north, had you?

Mr. Crafard. I figured to myself that we would take a route across from Dallas to Amarillo, that that was a pretty hard route to hitchhike under any circumstances, and figured that would be a lot easier, to go up 77 to hit 66, than it would be to go through to Amarillo.

Mr. Hubert. Did you consult a map at all in planning this trip?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. We picked it up at the gas station.

Mr. Hubert. You mean after you started out?

Mr. Crafard. No; I picked up a map right there.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. In Dallas, Tex., about a block from where my wife and I had been living.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about consulting a map with reference to going to see your sister when you left Ruby’s place.

Mr. Crafard. I knew that 77 would carry me right into 66, and 66 would carry me almost in to Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have to consult a map then?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Is that what you are telling us?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. All right. This boy picked you up then and carried you about 30 miles, you say?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. To what place?

Mr. Crafard. Out the other side of Carrollton a little ways.

Mr. Hubert. What State?

Mr. Crafard. Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Did he live there?

Mr. Crafard. He had a place there on the lake he was working on, he was going out there.

Mr. Hubert. What lake was that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of the lake.

Mr. Hubert. But it was at Carrollton?

Mr. Crafard. Out the other side of Carrollton.

Mr. Hubert. How far beyond Carrollton?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. He went out and turned off on a country road.

Mr. Hubert. But he left you on the highway?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a country road that went east or west of the highway you were on?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he went to the west, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you how far he had to go up the road?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. He was going to work, is that it?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. He was going to work?

Mr. Crafard. He was going to go up and do some work on his cabin.

Mr. Hubert. On his cabin on the lake?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did this man know Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Could he have met Ruby as you did out at the fair?

Mr. Crafard. He could have, yes.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know that he did?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to him about what you had been doing in the interim since you had last seen him?

Mr. Crafard. I told him that I had been working in Dallas at the Carousel.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention that you had been working for Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. I probably told him that Ruby ran the Carousel Club.

Mr. Hubert. Did he show any signs of recognizing he had seen Ruby out at the State Fair?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or that he knew him in any other way?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So far as you know then, the man didn’t know Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. He gave no manifestations of knowing him at all?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then. What happened next?

Mr. Crafard. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you wait for your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, barely about 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. The same spot or were you walking along?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed right there, walked about a hundred yards, maybe, up to an entryway where the cars came into the freeway.

Mr. Hubert. Then you got another ride?

Mr. Crafard. Got another ride, right there.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that with?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us something about him, what kind of a car it was, was it a man, a woman?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, man; I believe it was a ride with a man.

Mr. Hubert. How far did you go with this second driver?

Mr. Crafard. Wait a minute, it was a man and his wife that picked me up, carried me on up across the line, up to where he hit 66.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of a car was it, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they had an old Chevy, or an old Ford.

Mr. Hubert. What license car?

Mr. Crafard. It was a Texas car.

Mr. Hubert. And they carried you across the Texas line?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. They was going up to visit some relatives of his up there.

Mr. Hubert. Where? Is there a town at the Texas line that he dropped you off?

Mr. Crafard. No; it was on up about 50 or 60 miles across the other side of the line.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I thought from what you said that he had dropped you off at the line. In fact he had brought you about 60 miles beyond the line.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And into what State?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was Oklahoma.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you ride with him?

Mr. Crafard. We was together for about 5 or 6 hours.

Mr. Hubert. What time of day was it when he dropped you off?

Mr. Crafard. It was night when I got off there.

Mr. Hubert. What time had he picked you up?

Mr. Crafard. He picked me up about between 12:30 and a quarter to 1.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the town it was in?

Mr. Crafard. It was one of the big towns there, if I can think of it.

Mr. Hubert. Tulsa, Oklahoma City?

Mr. Crafard. Oklahoma City, I think it was.

Mr. Hubert. You rode in the back?

Mr. Crafard. I rode in the front seat with them. They were driving the car.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Crafard. I rode in the front seat with them.

Mr. Hubert. The three of you in the front?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, they had stuff in the back seat.

Mr. Hubert. And I understood you to say that they didn’t tell you their names at all?

Mr. Crafard. They give me their name, but I don’t remember it.

Mr. Hubert. But that they were going to visit some relatives in Oklahoma City?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. They was visiting his dad.

Mr. Hubert. His father. And that would have been around 6:30 or 7 at night?

Mr. Crafard. Right around there; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you have lunch?

Mr. Crafard. We stopped along the road at a cafe and had lunch.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stop on the road with the couple or with that friend?

Mr. Crafard. With the couple.

Mr. Hubert. You paid for your own lunch?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. That I think was your first expenditure on the trip?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. How much did that cost you?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe $1, a dollar and a half.

Mr. Hubert. Did you pay for their lunch?

Mr. Crafard. No; they paid for their own.

Mr. Hubert. All right, what did you do then?

Mr. Crafard. They let me out. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Did they leave you in downtown?

Mr. Crafard. No; they took me out to the edge of town to hitch a ride.

Mr. Hubert. Was it in the direction they were going?

Mr. Crafard. They dropped by there, by his dad’s place, and we sat there and we each had a cup of coffee and he took me out to the edge of town.

Mr. Hubert. So you met his dad too?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know what street that was on?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know the name of the people?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was there anybody else there besides the father?

Mr. Crafard. There was the father and one son that was at home.

Mr. Hubert. An adult son?

Mr. Crafard. He was in school I understand.

Mr. Hubert. How old a boy was he?

Mr. Crafard. He must have been about 16 or 17.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. We was there maybe a half an hour.

Mr. Hubert. And had coffee?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. No supper?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Then they took you from there to a spot on the highway on the other side of Oklahoma City—that is, on the north side—did they?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And dropped you off for your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. How long a drive was it to get you there?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, maybe about 4 or 5 miles.

Mr. Hubert. Miles you say?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. The man and his wife or just the man?

Mr. Crafard. Him and his wife, and I think his brother was with him, him and his wife and his brother.

Mr. Hubert. They dropped you off?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Any suggestions made that you might rest overnight there?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. And you did not?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get a hitch?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Right away?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, I stood there maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, I was standing under a street light.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get supper?

Mr. Crafard. I think I ate about 10 or 11 o’clock that night.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about your third hitch, how long it was, and so forth.

Mr. Crafard. I believe it carried me through most of the night, through the rest of the night I believe.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a man, woman?

Mr. Crafard. It was a man.

Mr. Hubert. Alone?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can figure.

Mr. Hubert. How old?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe in his late thirties.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of an automobile?

Mr. Crafard. I think he had a Buick.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the color?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the license, what State license?

Mr. Crafard. Oklahoma.

Mr. Hubert. Did you sit in the back or in the front?

Mr. Crafard. I sat in the front.

Mr. Hubert. And he carried you how far?

Mr. Crafard. We traveled most of the night. He was traveling back east.

Mr. Hubert. What time did he drop you off and where?

Mr. Crafard. I think he dropped me off just the other side of Missouri, in Missouri, just outside of St. Louis on 66.

Mr. Hubert. Which side of St. Louis?

Mr. Crafard. The south side.

Mr. Hubert. Which way was he going?

Mr. Crafard. That would be the west side of 66, of St. Louis, on 66. He was going into St. Louis.

Mr. Hubert. Where was he going after that?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, he was going back home.

Mr. Hubert. East?

Mr. Crafard. I was going up on 66. So far as I know he was stopping in St. Louis.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you said he was going east.

Mr. Crafard. From where he picked me up it was east, from where he picked me up.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean, was St. Louis his final destination?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That was it as far as he was concerned?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You say you had supper with him?

Mr. Crafard. We stopped at about 10 or 10:30 and had a bite to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. I think we stopped at a truck stop.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know what place?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How long after you had been riding with him did you stop?

Mr. Crafard. He picked me up, it must have been about 8 o’clock, or 8:30. We didn’t stop until about 10 or 10:30 for lunch, for a bite to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Two and a half hours?

Mr. Crafard. About that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you could have run a hundred miles or so?

Mr. Crafard. Easily.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t a city which you stopped at?

Mr. Crafard. No, it was just a little truck stop on the highway.

Mr. Hubert. On 66?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you fall asleep there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I did, yes.

Mr. Hubert. At what time, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Hubert. You are not sure then that you did fall asleep?

Mr. Crafard. I fell asleep, but I have no idea when it was.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how long you slept?

Mr. Crafard. I slept until about a half hour out of St. Louis, when I woke up.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to St. Louis?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was it daylight?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. How much had you spent for supper?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe a dollar; a dollar and a half.

Mr. Hubert. You were down to about $4 then?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mr. Crafard. Then I went on up. I got a ride there.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you have to wait until you got that next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe a half hour.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that one; what time it was, what kind of a car it was, the people in it.

Mr. Crafard. I imagine it was a man alone.

Mr. Hubert. Don’t imagine if you can help it. If you can’t remember, but try to recollect.

Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. How far did you go on that hitch?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he carried me clear up into Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. How far a run would that be?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. How much of a run would that be?

Mr. Crafard. That would be about a 7- or 8-hour ride, driving time, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. It was daylight then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So you were on that hitch about 7 hours?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us whether it was a man or a woman?

Mr. Crafard. It was a man.

Mr. Hubert. Was he alone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; most of your rides are with men alone.

Mr. Hubert. A little while ago you told us that you didn’t know whether it was a man or a woman or anything; you didn’t remember. Now you tell us it was a man.

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. And then you really do remember that it was a man?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, I daresay you can describe him, can’t you?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t describe him.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a young man or an old man?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was in his late twenties.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what about the automobile?

Mr. Crafard. It seems to me like it was a red and white Chevy.

Mr. Hubert. You say you were with that person and in that automobile about 7 or 8 hours clean into Chicago. So you had a lot of opportunity to observe such things as who you were riding with.

Mr. Crafard. It has been quite a while back, too.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your memory that you now say he was a man in his late twenties; about 29?

Mr. Crafard. I would say in his late twenties.

Mr. Hubert. And that you don’t remember the type of car?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a Chevy.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember the State license plate?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do any stopping with him?

Mr. Crafard. I imagine we probably stopped a couple of times and gassed up; stopped and had a bite to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the cost of that meal?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. It couldn’t have been more than about a dollar or a dollar and a half, at the most.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t pay for his meal or buy the gas?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Is it customary for hitchhikers to help out that way?

Mr. Crafard. Not very often. A man usually figures if he picks up a hitchhiker he figures on feeding him when he picks him up.

Mr. Hubert. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. A man who usually picks up somebody who is hitchhiking, they usually figure on feeding him.

Mr. Hubert. These people didn’t feed you?

Mr. Crafard. No. I try to have money in my pocket when I am hitchhiking.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. It was in the afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. What part of the afternoon.

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been early afternoon or getting toward dark? This time of the year it gets dark early; it did at that time.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I know.

Mr. Hubert. You say you had been with him about 7½ hours?

Mr. Crafard. About that.

Mr. Griffin. Let me get the time straight here a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. I thought we did have it straight.

Mr. Griffin. I am not straight.

Mr. Hubert. Let me see if I can’t get this straight. You rode through the night of the 23d?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Until the man left you off on the morning of the 24th on the west side of St. Louis on Highway 66; is that right?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. It was daylight then, and you had been with that man since about 8 o’clock the night before. Now, do you remember the time that he left you off? I think you stated that, didn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not exactly sure what the time was. Probably about 6 or 6:30; something like that.

Mr. Hubert. And then you rode with this other man from that time or about a half hour after that time, you said; so that is about 7 o’clock on the morning of the 24th, you rode with him about 7½ hours to Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. About that; yes.

Mr. Hubert. So then we can reconstruct that you must have reached Chicago or nearby Chicago at approximately half past 2 or 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. Crafard. It must have been in there somewhere.

Mr. Hubert. But you had stopped a little while for lunch.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And gas and so forth. What do you think is the fair time to state, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. What do you think is the fair time to state that the man let you off in Chicago, given the time schedule that we have been able to work out to the extent that it helps your memory? You were there. What we are trying to do is to get the facts.

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 2:30, 3 o’clock, because I got through Chicago all right without any trouble.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t take you through Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. No; I bypassed most of Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. How did you do that?

Mr. Crafard. On a couple alternate routes.

Mr. Hubert. With hitchhikers?

Mr. Crafard. Different rides.

Mr. Hubert. Different rides?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How many?

Mr. Crafard. I got three or four different rides in Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. With these several rides around Chicago, bypassing it, how long did it take you to get around Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. Probably 2 or 3 hours.

Mr. Hubert. And these were all short ones?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall your next long one that really took you out of Chicago good?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I had a ride carried me over to Lansing.

Mr. Hubert. What distance is that from Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure of the exact distance.

Mr. Hubert. What time did that man pick you up, a woman, or whoever it was?

Mr. Crafard. It was a man. It must have been getting on toward night; it must have been.

Mr. Hubert. Toward 9, or night?

Mr. Crafard. Night. It must have been getting toward dark. It was getting dark pretty quick at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Was that man alone?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. And you had that ride clean on from Chicago to Lansing, Mich.?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, it was night?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You weren’t at your destination yet, were you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stay in Lansing very long?

Mr. Crafard. No; not too long. I had to pretty well walk through quite a bit of Lansing; about an hour and a half walk, I guess it was.

Mr. Hubert. Well——

Mr. Griffin. You walked for an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard. About that.

Mr. Griffin. And you had two bags with you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t attempt to take any streetcars or buses?

Mr. Crafard. No city buses running when I got there.

Mr. Hubert. Would you judge that it was too late for the buses?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think it was.

Mr. Hubert. Was it after midnight?

Mr. Crafard. I think so; I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. That was a man, too, you think?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you have supper?

Mr. Crafard. I think we must have stopped; I think we stopped before we got to Lansing at a cafe to get supper.

Mr. Hubert. How far out of Lansing? If you don’t remember the miles, you might tell us about how long before he dropped you off.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know that, either.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been 3 or 4 hours. Probably about halfway between Chicago and Lansing.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you were with him about 8 hours, then?

Mr. Crafard. I think so; I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. And he picked you up about dark?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; that is about a 400- or 500-mile ride.

Mr. Hubert. He picked you up about dark in Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. Just about toward dark.

Mr. Hubert. Five in the afternoon?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been 5 or 5:30.

Mr. Hubert. So it was something like midnight or shortly after when you got to Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you say about halfway between; that is when you had lunch or supper?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Or about 8 o’clock, do you think; 9 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 8—8 or 8:30—something like that.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first hear that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. Crafard. I had heard that Oswald had been shot Sunday evening.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been while I was getting through Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you hear that?

Mr. Crafard. Over the radio.

Mr. Hubert. What radio?

Mr. Crafard. The car radio.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know that Ruby had done it?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t find out who had done it until the following Monday, the following morning, Monday.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you find that out?

Mr. Crafard. I heard that over the radio.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, Larry, I suppose all of those cars you were in had radios, didn’t they?

Mr. Crafard. A lot of people don’t listen to the radio when they are riding like that. That was the first I’d heard of it—was Sunday evening, the first I heard Oswald had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. Sunday afternoon, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. You said it was while you were working your way through Chicago.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which took you two or three different cars; about 2 hours or so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It was in one of those that you heard it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. There was no announcement that Ruby had done it?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so, because I didn’t know Ruby had done it until Monday morning.

Mr. Hubert. How did you find that out?

Mr. Crafard. I heard that over the news.

Mr. Hubert. In a car?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. During the night when you were driving from Chicago to Lansing, during the period from 5 in the afternoon to about midnight, didn’t you hear any radio announcements about any of this matter?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did that car have a radio in it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t it playing?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you discuss the shooting?

Mr. Crafard. After I found out that Oswald had been shot we discussed it a little bit. We couldn’t understand. Both of us, as far as I can recall—the gentleman I was riding with and myself—we both said we would like to have seen him come to trial.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to the man that you were from Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it customary for hitchhikers to discuss what is a subject common to them, and that is where you have been and where you are going?

Mr. Crafard. Most of the time; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you, in fact, do that with this man; tell him you were from Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall whether I did or not.

Mr. Hubert. There is a difference between telling us that you don’t know and that you did not.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I say. I don’t recall whether I did or not.

Mr. Hubert. So, really, it is not that you are saying to us that you didn’t, but just that you don’t remember?

Mr. Crafard. That is right, I don’t recall whether I had been doing so. I more than likely did, because it is usually something that they say; it is a subject that most people would discuss—where their destination is and where they have come from.

Mr. Hubert. And I would think that if you did, if there was a possibility that you did, and you mentioned that you were from Dallas, that that would be another topic of conversation that might be interesting between two people riding along that way.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, that you had been in the city at which the President was killed.

Mr. Crafard. We would have discussed that.

Mr. Hubert. Doesn’t that refresh your memory on the subject?

Mr. Crafard. No; it doesn’t, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You still don’t remember?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Talking to that man about the fact that you were in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember having any indication that it was known who had shot Oswald?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to anyone about the fact that it was a nightclub owner?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Did the radio remain on after you heard this announcement?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember whether the radio stayed on, or whether he turned it off, or what.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, what you are telling us—it is your best memory now that you heard it over the radio that Oswald had been shot. That is as much as you did hear?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You did not hear who had done it or even the type of person who had done it, or what business the person was in who had done it, and that you never discussed it with anybody that you rode with in any one of those rides in Chicago and with the ride to Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I recall, I don’t recall—I imagine it was discussed, but I don’t recall discussing it. I don’t remember it.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: If you had discussed with anybody the killing of Oswald, the man accused of killing Oswald, you would remember that now, wouldn’t you, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I would, if I discussed anything about who had been accused of it, but, like I say, the first knowledge I had of who had shot Oswald was Monday morning.

Mr. Hubert. We will get to that in a moment Now, you had to go through Lansing, and you say it took but an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. What was your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can remember, I had a series of short rides, 20 or 25 miles to a ride.

Mr. Hubert. How far along did these series of short rides take you?

Mr. Crafard. I think I probably traveled about 60 or 70 miles before I got a good ride.

Mr. Hubert. That point, 60 or 75 miles beyond Lansing being the same point at which you got a good ride, was what place?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a large city, a small town?

Mr. Crafard. It was a small place as far as I can remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was that the last hitch you had?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I got one more after that. I think that one carried me to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. To Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How far is Mount Pleasant from Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o’clock on the morning of the 25th, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, it must have been about that.

Mr. Hubert. And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which you have referred?

Mr. Crafard. It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a half.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant you got before or after daylight?

Mr. Crafard. It was before daylight.

Mr. Hubert. It was still dark?

Mr. Crafard. I walked about—where this guy let me off at it was about 5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was light to get a ride.

Mr. Hubert. I didn’t quite understand that.

The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you off before light?

Mr. Crafard. I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.

Mr. Hubert. Was it light when you got a ride with him?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so. I have lost some time somewhere between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn’t get into Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let’s find out what time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you don’t know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I didn’t get into Clare until, I think it was 9 or 9:30 at night. I’ve lost at least 8 hours of time.

Mr. Hubert. Of course I don’t know that you have because I don’t know what geography or distance we are talking about.

Mr. Crafard. The distance isn’t that great. It only is 15 miles from Mount Pleasant to Clare.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s start this way. What time did you get to Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount Pleasant because it was 9:30, I’m almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when I got into Clare, because I went over to my cousin’s house in Clare. I remember that.

Mr. Hubert. It was before dark and before dawn when you picked up the driver somewhere approximately 6 miles on the other side of Lansing who took you into Mount Pleasant. Now, how long did you ride with him, and how far is it between the two?

Mr. Crafard. That is what I mean. I have lost some time earlier somewhere, because it is not that long a ride. I could have made it from Lansing to Clare and back again during the day.

Mr. Hubert. Larry, we want to get it straight.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I am trying to do, myself.

Mr. Hubert. If you want to figure out any place where you have made any mistake about the time——

Mr. Crafard. That is what I was trying to do.

Mr. Hubert. We can start all over again. It seemed to fit as I went along, but I wasn’t aware of the distances.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask him this question: I understand you said that you walked through Lansing.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long did it take you to walk through Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. About an hour, hour and a half, something like that.

Mr. Griffin. And at that time the cars were not running, the transit, the public transportation was not running, or were you out of money at that time?

Mr. Crafard. I still had money I have to eat on.

Mr. Griffin. Lansing is how far from Clare?

Mr. Crafard. Lansing isn’t over, I don’t believe it is over 225 miles from Clare to Lansing.

Mr. Hubert. It may be that you are making a mistake, Larry. Let’s see if we can’t refresh your memory from the time you got that last long hitch that took you to Mount Pleasant because you remember getting to Mount Pleasant at night, about 8:30.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that, you say, is a run of what—about 5 hours, 6 hours?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe it would take that long.

Mr. Hubert. So if you got there at about 8:30 at night, then either you didn’t get any hitches for a long period of time, or else something else happened.

Mr. Crafard. I’m just trying to——

Mr. Hubert. Because you told us, and if it is not so, why we want you to correct it. Everybody can make mistakes.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I was trying to do.

Mr. Hubert. You said that you picked up this ride at a point 60 miles outside of Lansing and into Mount Pleasant prior to dawn on the 25th. Now, maybe that is wrong. Maybe you got that ride late in the day. Let’s put it this way. Was that a continuous ride straight on?

Mr. Crafard. It carried me straight on through to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stop at all?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. It isn’t that long a run across there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stop for lunch or anything of that sort?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. And it is about a 6-hour run?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe it is that long a run across there.

Mr. Hubert. If you got there at 8:30 at night, and if you are firm about that——

Mr. Crafard. I’m positive it was 8:30 or 9 o’clock when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about Mount Pleasant. You had no difficulty getting from Mount Pleasant to Clare, did you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say an hour would suffice for that?

Mr. Crafard. Plenty, plenty of time.

Mr. Hubert. You got there between 8:30 and 9, that is into Clare, right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s back off from there, then. Did you spend any time in Mount Pleasant before leaving for Clare?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So that you must have left Clare about 7:30.

Mr. Crafard. I got into Clare about——

Mr. Hubert. I mean left Mount Pleasant about 7:30, right?

Mr. Crafard. No; I left Clare—Mount Pleasant about 8 or 8:30. It was about 9 o’clock when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. Did you start on your way to Clare immediately after this man left you off at Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And had you run directly through without stopping from the time the man picked you up and dropped you off in Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. That is right, 15 miles.

Mr. Hubert. 15 miles? No; I am talking about the run from——

Mr. Crafard. From Mount Pleasant to Clare.

Mr. Hubert. No; I’m talking about the run to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Griffin. From Lansing to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. A point outside of Lansing to Mount Pleasant. That is about a 4-hour run, you say.

Mr. Crafard. At the most, from Lansing to Clare.

Mr. Hubert. That last long hitch was about a 4-hour hitch?

Mr. Crafard. No; the last long ride was maybe 2½ hours.

Mr. Hubert. 2½ hours?

Mr. Crafard. Or 3 hours.

Mr. Hubert. And that was the man who brought you into Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, if you got to Mount Pleasant about 8, he must have picked you up about 5 in the afternoon.

Mr. Crafard. It must have been.

Mr. Hubert. Then there is some mistake in timing of about 12 hours.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I was saying. I’ve lost some time there.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps it needs a little clarifying. Let me touch on another point.

Mr. Crafard. It seems to me I got mixed up on my routes going out of Oklahoma City.

Mr. Hubert. Think about it a moment and let me touch upon something else before we go back to it. I think you said that you heard that Ruby had done this on the morning of the 25th.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, could you tell us how you heard it? Did you hear it by newspaper, radio, television, or what?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure whether it was over the radio or whether I saw it in the newspaper.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that must have made a terrific impact on you, because, after all, that was your boss.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So I suggest that if you will just put your mind to it, you can tell us pretty well how it was and where it was. Was it in a restaurant or an automobile?

Mr. Crafard. I think I saw it in the newspaper, saw something about Oswald and then the assassination or something like that, and then I read the rest of it.

Mr. Hubert. You bought a newspaper?

Mr. Crafard. I think so. I must have.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you keep it?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so because I didn’t have one with me when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. And it was morning?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it must have been. It was about 8 in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. 8 in the morning?

Mr. Crafard. About that, somewhere.

Mr. Hubert. Were you with anybody, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I was walking through a small town.

Mr. Hubert. What was your reaction to it?

Mr. Crafard. It was pretty hard to believe.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell anybody about it?

Mr. Crafard. I think something was said to somebody I was riding with about it or something. Somebody picked me up shortly after I saw it, somebody I was riding with, and we had stopped in a cafe or something. I am pretty sure I discussed it with the person I was riding with.

Mr. Hubert. You are pretty sure now?

Mr. Crafard. The fact that I stated to him that it seemed almost impossible to believe. It seemed to be awfully hard to believe it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell that person that you knew him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell that person that you had started to hitchhike up?

Mr. Crafard. I told him I had worked for him, that I had left the day after Kennedy was shot, coming up from Texas.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Were you with that person very long? Was he the one, for example, who took you into Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Now, let me see. I think you have refreshed your memory to some extent. You tell us now you are quite sure it was a newspaper.

Mr. Crafard. I am pretty sure it was.

Mr. Hubert. That gave you the first information.

Mr. Crafard. I still think that—I’m almost positive I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City somewhere, or just out of Oklahoma City.

Mr. Hubert. We will try to straighten out that route business a little later. You are quite clear that you arrived at Clare, Mich., about 9 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Was that your destination from the start?

Mr. Crafard. My main destination was about Kalkaska, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. How far is that from Clare?

Mr. Crafard. It is about 3 hours running.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you stop on the night of the 25th, about 9 o’clock, at Clare?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed at my cousin’s at Clare.

Mr. Hubert. What is your cousin’s name?

Mr. Crafard. Clifford Roberts.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the address?

Mr. Crafard. 307 East Seventh Street.

Mr. Hubert. Were they expecting you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How long since you last saw them?

Mr. Crafard. At the time it had been, I think it had been, several years since I saw him at that time.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know they were there?

Mr. Crafard. They wrote to my folks while I was living in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Was it——

Mr. Crafard. Wait a minute; excuse me. I saw him before I went to work, before I went to work with the carnival. My sister told me where they was living at there.