TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR. (continued 2)

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I didn’t finish that. I woke Larry up and I—he sat up and I went back out of the room and I went back to what I was doing because it was necessary—absolutely necessary.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you were on the toilet, is that right?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; and then I heard further reports and I got up again and I went and told Larry the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. The first time you went there you didn’t tell him about the President being shot?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I told him somebody shot at the President, and Larry—I noticed the couple of times that I had woke him up he always went back to sleep and he did the same thing this time, but when I told him that the President had been shot, he jumped straight up—he got up immediately and put his clothes on.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what interval of time elapsed between the first time you woke him up and then went back to the toilet and the second time when you came back and told him the President had been shot?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know, it couldn’t have been longer than a couple of minutes—I don’t think.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What did you all do then?

Mr. Armstrong. We just walked around and listened to the radio, shaking our heads and waiting on more reports.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have a television in the place?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; we had a television—I turned the television on.

Mr. Hubert. Did you all listen to both the television and the radio?

Mr. Armstrong. Both the television and the radio—there wasn’t too much on the TV, so you could get more on the radio.

Mr. Hubert. When did you hear from Jack, after the shooting of the President?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, I would say about 15 or 20 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. After you first heard about it?

Mr. Armstrong. After I first heard about it.

Mr. Hubert. How did you hear from him?

Mr. Armstrong. On the telephone.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Mr. Armstrong. He just said, “Did you hear?” and I said, “Yes.” He said, “Ain’t it terrible?” “It’s a shame.” Just like that—real sadlike.

Mr. Hubert. That was before the President had died?

Mr. Armstrong. That was before the President had died.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he was calling from?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I assumed he was calling from the Morning News.

Mr. Hubert. Why do you assume that?

Mr. Armstrong. Because I could always tell when he called from the Morning News.

Mr. Hubert. Why—because of what?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, usually on Saturday at the time he was at the Morning News—that was on a Saturday, wasn’t it?

Mr. Hubert. No; it was on Friday.

Mr. Armstrong. It was on Friday—well, Friday or Saturday is the same as—the Saturday ads——

Mr. Hubert. Well, is it your testimony then that he was usually at the Morning News on both Friday and Saturday attending to the ads for the week?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Is there any other thing that would make you believe he was there at the Morning News, such as some background noises that would be peculiar to a newspaper?

Mr. Armstrong. Well—there was this typewriter that I always hear when he called from down there, and I only heard it at this time—about four clicks of it.

Mr. Hubert. You mean on the time he called you about 20 minutes after the President had been shot?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You heard four clicks?

Mr. Armstrong. On the typewriter that I usually hear it on.

Mr. Hubert. Usually, you would hear a big clatter of it?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. At this time you heard about four clicks and no more?

Mr. Armstrong. And no more.

Mr. Hubert. Did you place any particular significance to that?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you now?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. I was curious why you mentioned that fact then.

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I mentioned it to verify the reason why I thought he was at the Morning News. He did not tell me he was at the Morning News.

Mr. Hubert. I understand.

Mr. Armstrong. But I assumed that he was at the Morning News.

Mr. Hubert. Now, he asked you if you had heard and you told him yes and he said, “Wasn’t it terrible,” and so forth?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What else did he say?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he said if anything happens we are going to close the club up.

Mr. Hubert. “If anything happens,” I suppose you mean that he was inferring, or you thought he was, that if the President would die?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say so in so many words?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. He just said, “If anything happens.”

Mr. Armstrong. “We are going to close the club.”

Mr. Hubert. Any other conversation?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he said, “I’ll see you in about 30 minutes,” and I would say he was there in about 5 minutes after they announced that the President was dead.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what time that was?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t recall what time it was.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, within 5 minutes after you heard that the President was dead, Jack came in?

Mr. Armstrong. He came in.

Mr. Hubert. Did he know then that the President was dead?

Mr. Armstrong. He knew.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say so?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he was—he didn’t say anything—he just got on the telephone. No, he said something about, “It’s a shame.” He kept saying, “It’s a shame,” like that and he got on the telephone and he was crying.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who he was speaking to on the telephone?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he spoke to his sister, he spoke to—he made some long-distance phone calls, I think one to his brother Earl.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Armstrong. He made one because it was—I could tell—I could usually tell when he was usually talking to his brother Earl.

Mr. Hubert. Did he speak to Earl very often?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, during that month of November he had spoken to him quite often about some business deal he was trying to get him to go into.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the nature of that business deal?

Mr. Armstrong. Twist boards, I think it was.

Mr. Hubert. You overheard the conversation?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, on this particular day?

Mr. Hubert. No, I mean on the previous occasions?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, some of them.

Mr. Hubert. Did you gather from what you heard Ruby say on the Dallas end of the line when he was talking to his brother Earl that he was trying to interest him in investing in the twist board invention?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, no—not on this day. On the other days—he didn’t say anything about the twist board this day.

Mr. Hubert. I understand, I’m talking about the other day.

Mr. Armstrong. Well, usually, I knew he was going to talk to him, he would say, “I’m going to call Earl,” and he would ask for Earl’s phone number which was on a pad there by the phone. He would ask me or he would get it himself.

Mr. Hubert. What was this twist-board business about?

Mr. Armstrong. It was trying to promote a twist board, trying to get it to go over like the hula hula or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if he was trying to interest anyone else in that?

Mr. Armstrong. I know he sent some brochures and things like that to other people, but I don’t recall who.

Mr. Hubert. From what you were able to hear during those various conversations between Jack and Earl Ruby, during the month of November, was Earl interested?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, yes and no. You could say he was interested in—for hoping it would be a good deal for Jack’s benefit, but I don’t think he was too interested in investing any money but if he would have to, I believe he would.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack tell you all that?

Mr. Armstrong. In a way he did.

Mr. Hubert. How do you mean “in a way”?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, in other words, he said that Earl might invest money.

Mr. Hubert. So, your statement about whether Earl was interested or not is based upon two factors, I suppose, and correct me if I am wrong—was—one is that you could hear Jack’s end of the conversation?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And the other is that Ruby told you some things about it?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And the net result was that Earl wasn’t too interested in it, but might be for Jack’s sake?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Who else did Jack call, do you know?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he called Ralph Paul.

Mr. Hubert. Did you overhear that conversation?

Mr. Armstrong. I remember it was a short conversation but Jack said he was going to close the club up and Ralph said he was not going to close this place up——

Mr. Hubert. How do you know he said that?

Mr. Armstrong. Because he told me later on he did.

Mr. Hubert. But, at the moment all you could hear was Jack saying to Ralph Paul—he was going to close the place up?

Mr. Armstrong. Jack did say—he says, “You should close yours up too.”

Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t hear Paul’s answer?

Mr. Armstrong. I didn’t hear his answer.

Mr. Hubert. But later you understand from Paul that he told Jack he wasn’t going to do so?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Who else did he call; do you know?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t remember who else he called—he made five or six phone calls.

Mr. Hubert. And you say he was crying——

Mr. Armstrong. At two or three stages he was crying there.

Mr. Hubert. You mean when speaking to people or otherwise?

Mr. Armstrong. When using the phone.

Mr. Hubert. Only when speaking to people or when he was not speaking to people?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he cried when he was speaking to me, after he had got off the phone.

Mr. Hubert. Were you crying, too?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I was.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack indicate why he was crying?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything about how the death of the President would affect the business community of Dallas, and particularly the convention business here?

Mr. Armstrong. I’m the one that mentioned it first.

Mr. Hubert. What did you say?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I said, “This will kill the business, conventionwise, and things probably will slow up quite a bit—drop off quite a bit.” He said, “Yes; you’ve got a point.” He said, “I think it will, too.”

Mr. Hubert. He wasn’t angry at you for making that suggestion?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. He agreed with you, in fact?

Mr. Armstrong. He agreed with me.

Mr. Hubert. How long did he stay from the time he first came in, which you say was 5 minutes after you knew—after it had been announced that the President had been killed?

Mr. Armstrong. I would say he stayed there an hour; approximately an hour.

Mr. Hubert. And most of the time, you think, he was on the phone?

Mr. Armstrong. Most of the time on the phone.

Mr. Hubert. Did he get any calls from anybody?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; he got some; the phone rang a couple of times, and also the pay phone rang a couple of times; some of the girls called him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you answer it?

Mr. Armstrong. I answered the pay phone and he answered the business phone.

Mr. Hubert. And what did you all tell the girls; what were they asking about?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, they were just asking, “Did you hear the news?”

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell them then that the clubs would be closed?

Mr. Armstrong. Not then.

Mr. Hubert. Well, can you fix about what time Jack left?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I can’t.

Mr. Hubert. You said it was about 1 hour after you heard of the death of the President, or 1 hour and 5 minutes, and if you think that estimate is wrong, say so—I mean anybody can be wrong in an estimate.

Mr. Armstrong. No; that’s about right. He came in about 5 minutes after they announced the death of the President.

Mr. Hubert. And he stayed about an hour?

Mr. Armstrong. And he stayed about an hour.

Mr. Hubert. And made these various calls and then left?

Mr. Armstrong. Right. Now, what time was the death of the President; do you have that?

Mr. Hubert. Well, suppose we assume it was approximately 1:30 p.m.

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You would think, then, if that is so, he left about 2:35 p.m.?

Mr. Armstrong. Something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Prior to his leaving, then, did he give you any instructions or tell you what to do?

Mr. Armstrong. He said that the club was going to be closed until Monday and not to mention it to anybody connected with the other clubs because he, himself, was pretty sure that they wouldn’t close up; his competitors didn’t get along—they didn’t get along.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you why Monday?

Mr. Armstrong. Why Monday?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Armstrong. No; he didn’t tell me why Monday. He just said that the club would be closed and for me to call everyone.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention Monday that it would be closed Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night?

Mr. Armstrong. He said the club would be closed Friday and Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why he was picking those 3 days?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. What other instructions did he give you?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s all.

Mr. Hubert. What about notifying the girls?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I notified them; yes; he gave me the instructions to notify them—all the acts and the waitresses.

Mr. Hubert. Did you call Little Lynn—I think her name is Karen Bennett Carlin?

Mr. Armstrong. No; she came down that night, I’m pretty sure. I think I couldn’t get a’hold of her.

Mr. Hubert. Did you try to call her?

Mr. Armstrong. I tried.

Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t reach her?

Mr. Armstrong. I didn’t reach her.

Mr. Hubert. And you say she came down that night?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That Friday night.

Mr. Armstrong. I think, and Friday night the club was closed and she went back home.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know that of your own knowledge?

Mr. Armstrong. No; not to my own knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. But you are positive that you did not reach Karen—Little Lynn—Bennett to call her?

Mr. Armstrong. Sure I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know her husband, Bruce, at all?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; he was up to the club quite often until——

Mr. Hubert. Until what?

Mr. Armstrong. He was up to the club quite often after the assassination until I suggested that he didn’t come around too often because of some business there; Little Lynn was always getting into something with the other girls, and she got him there to take up for her.

Mr. Hubert. This occurred after the assassination when you were managing the club?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And he was coming around, and you suggested not to come around any more?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that that had happened before the assassination, also, and that Jack told him so, or the same thing?

Mr. Armstrong. I’m sure—I’m not sure that Jack had told him, but I believe that Jack had told him, because he was coming there and he stopped.

Mr. Hubert. Now, during the time that Jack came in at about 1:30 or so and stayed until about 2:30 or 2:35 or 2:40, was this man Larry Crafard there?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He was with you at the time?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby come back that day, or did you hear from him any more?

Mr. Armstrong. He came back that day.

Mr. Hubert. About what time?

Mr. Armstrong. No—when he came back I was gone.

Mr. Hubert. Well, what time did you leave?

Mr. Armstrong. I left—I must have left about 4:30.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do in the interval between the time when Jack left and the time you left, which was about 2 hours?

Mr. Armstrong. Wait a minute here: let’s see; let me straighten a little something out here because I am a little wrong here.

Mr. Hubert. All right; that’s what I want you to do.

Mr. Armstrong. I called the people—I called everybody and told them we would be closed that night, Friday night, and Saturday—I called them we would be closed Saturday and Sunday. In other words, Jack said we would be closed tonight, possibly until Monday; in other words, Friday.

Mr. Hubert. I see.

Mr. Armstrong. Now, when I came down Saturday——

Mr. Hubert. Now, let’s not get to Saturday yet.

Mr. Armstrong. OK; I will straighten that out.

Mr. Hubert. I want to get to that, but right now you want to change your testimony because your best recollection right now is to the effect that on Friday when you were talking with Jack it had not been decided how long the club would be closed?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. But only it would be closed Friday night?

Mr. Armstrong. Friday night.

Mr. Hubert. It might be closed the other nights, but no decision was made yet?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. That’s your best recollection of it?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s the best recollection of it.

Mr. Hubert. That is your recollection?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us just for the record as to why you got confused; have you any notion as to what made you get confused?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I was getting confused on account of the dates. In other words, I was thinking that I didn’t—that the next time I would be at the club would be Sunday, after I hear about the slaying of Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Was that so?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I was thinking that would be my next appearance at the club. In other words, I am trying to think ahead, but then my next appearance at the club was Saturday, which I talked with Jack, because I recall Jack fired me that Saturday, but we’ll get to that.

Mr. Hubert. Well, we will get to that, but we want to keep the dates straight too, if we can, and the times, but let me say this to you: If you do make a mistake in time or date, please feel completely free to come back and correct it, because what we are looking for is the truth.

Mr. Armstrong. That’s the reason I’m not giving you any definite time, because like when I had my interview with Mr. Peggs, definitely—any definite time, and that was right after the assassination—just a few days after.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Anyway, the way we have left it is that you left at approximately 4:30, having called the girls and told them that the club would be closed that night?

Mr. Armstrong. And I reached Little Lynn that day.

Mr. Hubert. You did reach Little Lynn that day?

Mr. Armstrong. That day, but the next Saturday, I didn’t; the Saturday, I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. So you did call Little Lynn in Fort Worth; is that right?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And told her that the club would be closed Friday?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And told her that—what did you tell her with reference to Saturday?

Mr. Armstrong. I said that we would be closed tonight, and I didn’t say anything other than that.

Mr. Hubert. Then, about 4:30 you left?

Mr. Armstrong. I left.

Mr. Hubert. To go home?

Mr. Armstrong. I go home.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear from Ruby any more that night?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I didn’t hear from him.

Mr. Hubert. Was Larry Crafard at the club when you left?

Mr. Armstrong. He was there when I left.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. What was the nature of the conversation between you and Larry after Ruby left about 2:30 on that Friday?

Mr. Armstrong. After he left about 2:30?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; you said you and Larry were there between 2:30 and 4:30 when you left?

Mr. Armstrong. You see, Jack left and Larry was walking up and down the aisle there shaking his head and—well, he was doing nothing—I would just try to get up and try to finish cleaning up, which I did, and it didn’t take too much because we had gone through the procedure of cleaning up while we was listening to the news, and that was from a Thursday night and we don’t have that many people in there on Thursday night—Thursday night and Sunday night are bad nights.

Mr. Hubert. Did you and Larry talk after Ruby left?

Mr. Armstrong. I imagine we said a few words to each other; Larry went out and ate.

Mr. Hubert. While you were there?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did he stay?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, he stayed about 20 minutes, I guess, and when he got back Jack came back in about 10 minutes later.

Mr. Hubert. You were still there?

Mr. Armstrong. Pardon; I was still there.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you told me that you had not seen Jack any more that day?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I’m still thinking that—I’m still thinking when I had not seen Jack on Friday—when I left, I left Jack and Larry in the club.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, we have to revise this, because I want you to get your best recollection in here.

Mr. Armstrong. You see, this is the reason why I know; I had some boards and some bricks to carry home, and I made a phone call to a brick company over on McKinney and told the fellow if he would bring my bricks over to my house—he said, “Yes”—it was 25 bricks, these boards and bricks for me to build a corner shelf, and I had painted the boards in the club and I remember Jack asked me what was I going to do with those boards and I told him the layout of what I had planned on and he said it was very nice, and I wrapped them in newspaper and I left the club.

Mr. Hubert. That was at 4:30; is that the time?

Mr. Armstrong. That was about 4:30.

Mr. Hubert. Now, let’s get it straight; Jack left about an hour and 5 minutes after the time he first came in; right?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And you left about 2 hours after that?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. So, you left approximately, as we have reconstructed it as we went along, about 4:30?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. But you said that Jack came in again before you left?

Mr. Armstrong. Before I left; just a little before I left.

Mr. Hubert. Which would have been about 4 you think, or 4:15?

Mr. Armstrong. Something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what was his condition at that time?

Mr. Armstrong. Still in the same—he wasn’t crying any more, but he was still sad and speaking about the assassination and things of that nature and saying a few other things about the club and asked me had I contacted everyone, and I told him, “Yes.”

Mr. Hubert. What other things about the club was he talking about?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, just about—there was certain things to cut out and certain lights to cut off and was the box unplugged; the things that I always take care of: he always asked about it later.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any phone calls?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. At that time, during the second visit?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t recall any more.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him talking to Larry?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he did ask Larry about a certain phone number, someone’s phone number that he had Larry to put down in a book.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember whose phone number that was?

Mr. Armstrong. No, I sure don’t—it was a business phone number—some business.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make a call?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t remember him making a call.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the business?

Mr. Armstrong. I think it was the people that printed up the stationery—I’m not sure, but I think that’s who he was calling.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t hear that call?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you left it was about 4:30?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And you left Ruby and Larry at the club?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And you went home and went to bed—on about your business and didn’t hear from Jack until the next day?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand it, you never saw Larry afterward?

Mr. Armstrong. Right. He left a key at the garage downstairs.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first find out about that?

Mr. Armstrong. About the——

Mr. Hubert. About the key and Larry leaving it?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, about 1 o’clock, I guess, I got down again about 1 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. That was on Saturday?

Mr. Armstrong. On Saturday.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Armstrong. I always stopped at the garage to see if there was any mail.

Mr. Hubert. Is that where the mail was delivered?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s where the mail was delivered and Ben gave me the key. He said Larry had left it and left a note and just said thank Jack for everything, and that’s all.

Mr. Hubert. You mean a written note?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, Ben, the man at the garage, told you that Larry had left?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you what time he left?

Mr. Armstrong. He said “Early this morning,” that’s all he said.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t give you any time?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. And he said that he had left the key and a written note?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Saying to thank Jack for everything?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That he was leaving?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was the written note?

Mr. Armstrong. With the key—just a little piece of paper—I think it was an envelope tore up or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see it?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do with it?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I don’t know—I guess I must have throwed it away because only thing on it was “Thank Jack.” I read it to Jack on the phone and I guess I must have throwed it in the trash by the phone there.

Mr. Hubert. And when you got upstairs, did you call Jack as usual?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He was at his house?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been about 1 or a little after?

Mr. Armstrong. About 10 after, I would say.

Mr. Hubert. How did you find him then, his attitude, and so forth?

Mr. Armstrong. He said when I told him about Larry, he said, “I guess he wanted to be with his people through all this.”

Mr. Hubert. He wanted to be through with what?

Mr. Armstrong. He said, “I guess he wanted to be with his people through this,”—you know—through the assassination. So, we didn’t say anything else—he didn’t say anything else except he said, “I’ll see you later.”

Mr. Hubert. You say you read him the note?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And he told you to throw it away?

Mr. Armstrong. No, he didn’t tell me to throw it away.

Mr. Hubert. But you did do it?

Mr. Armstrong. I did.

Mr. Hubert. As far as you know, the note is not in existence right now?

Mr. Armstrong. As far as I know.

Mr. Hubert. You actually looked at it?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you read it in fact to Jack?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Give us your best recollection of precisely what the note said.

Mr. Armstrong. It just said, “Thanks, Jack, for everything.”

Mr. Hubert. Did it have a signature on it?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was it in his handwriting?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, it was in his handwriting.

Mr. Hubert. You recognized his handwriting?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where Larry’s people were at that time?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack know?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he didn’t know either.

Mr. Hubert. You found out later, I think?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, there was a letter that he had received, which—pardon me—someone got it in this letter that I have the letter in my possession.

Mr. Hubert. Yes?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t have it, but the last I saw of the letter was when I showed it to one of the FBI men at the club.

Mr. Hubert. It was a letter received by Jack? Or written by Jack?

Mr. Armstrong. No; a letter written to Larry.

Mr. Hubert. To Larry?

Mr. Armstrong. From some girl in some other city.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Armstrong. Did you send me this [presenting witness’ letter of notice to depose to Counsel Hubert]?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Armstrong. Well, you remember what city it was sent from?

Mr. Hubert. Well, isn’t it a fact that you forwarded two letters?

Mr. Armstrong. One that Larry was writing himself.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; to a girl called Gayle.

Mr. Armstrong. Right, and one that he had received from her.

Mr. Hubert. Was that letter opened?

Mr. Armstrong. It was opened.

Mr. Hubert. But it was still in the envelope?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you just gave that to the FBI people?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you find it?

Mr. Armstrong. In Larry’s belongings there in his room on a little table there.

Mr. Hubert. Did he leave any belongings behind?

Mr. Armstrong. He left some shirts, he left a pair of khakies, I think, or bluejeans—a pair of jeans.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any bags up in that room?

Mr. Armstrong. He had one little bag, a sort of a little square bag with a little handle or two little handles like that [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. By the measurements you are making, it is a bag about 12 to 15 inches in length?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And about 6 or 8 inches in height?

Mr. Armstrong. About big enough to get a change of clothes in.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t have another bag, did he?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was this bag you are talking about made of leather or cloth?

Mr. Armstrong. It was made of leather.

Mr. Hubert. And all he left behind was just this one change of clothing and two letters?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, you see, Jack had bought him a change of clothes, you see. Jack bought him a suit. I think he left what he had—his change of clothing, and carried the suit with him.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you find these two letters, one written to him and one written by him?

Mr. Armstrong. In the room where he slept on a table there.

Mr. Hubert. They wasn’t in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Armstrong. No; not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. When did you pick those things up?

Mr. Armstrong. When the FBI’s were there.

Mr. Hubert. Not before?

Mr. Armstrong. Not before.

Mr. Hubert. So, you didn’t pick them up on Saturday at all?

Mr. Armstrong. No—I didn’t even go in that room on Saturday. As a matter of fact, I didn’t even know he had anything there—they were looking for something with his handwriting on it, for something possibly where he had gone and we started searching where he was staying and we found those letters.

Mr. Hubert. And that was on the first day you spoke to the FBI?

Mr. Armstrong. No; this was not on the first day. We opened back up on a Monday, I think we spoke to the FBI—one FBI that Monday, but later on, you know, there was some other ones—possibly the last part of the week.

Mr. Hubert. And it was then that they were talking to you at the club?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And they asked about Larry?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you all went and searched his room where he had been and they found the letters?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. You are sure that that’s right, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I looked in the room myself. They was in the office, which has a door from his room to the office.

Mr. Hubert. Did you look in his room either on Saturday or Sunday, the 23d or 24th?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. And when you looked in his room, it was when the FBI was interviewing you?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. At the club?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I didn’t even know Larry had left any belongings there until the FBI was asking me about it.

Mr. Hubert. And you went into the room alone?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, the door was open.

Mr. Hubert. And then you came out and you showed them these things?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what date that was on?

Mr. Armstrong. No, I sure don’t.

Mr. Hubert. All right, as I understand it, a little after 1 on Saturday the 23d, you spoke to Ruby over the phone and told him about Larry?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did any other conversation take place between you on that telephone call?

Mr. Armstrong. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. None?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you what to do with reference to the club on Saturday night?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say that he would be there soon or something of that sort?

Mr. Armstrong. He said he would be there sometime “this afternoon.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you stay there until he came?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, I was there when he came.

Mr. Hubert. What time did he come?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t recall the exact time—I don’t think that Jack came in the club that day before—it was late in the afternoon—I don’t know the exact time, but it was somewhere around 6 or 7 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. Was it still daylight or dark?

Mr. Armstrong. It was still daylight.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any phone calls during the time you talked to Ruby on the phone until he came in?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, there was phone calls—something about was we going to be open—a few reservations came in, and I told them I didn’t know whether we would be open tonight or not and to call back later, and there was a couple of girls called.

Mr. Hubert. What did you tell them?

Mr. Armstrong. The girls was told, “I’ll talk to you later.”

Mr. Hubert. So, Jack came in at approximately 6 o’clock, or at least before dark—but it was getting dark, right?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Describe his condition at that time?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he was still in a sad mood, you know, in a sorrowful mood, you know.

Mr. Hubert. Was he crying?

Mr. Armstrong. No, he wasn’t crying this time.

Mr. Hubert. You were in a sorrowful mood, too, I take it?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that his mood and yours were about the same?

Mr. Armstrong. No—my sorrowful mood was sort of on the inside mostly, and his was in his face and in the way he was worried about the things. He seemed like—to be more worried than ever.

Mr. Hubert. Then, how—that is to say—what was he doing that gave you the impression that he was more worried than ever? You have told us he had a sad look on his face?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he was—he just felt like—it seemed like he was just disturbed over what had happened, you know, over the assassination.

Mr. Hubert. Well, of course, you are telling us about the mental impression you formed, which is perfectly all right, but it would be helpful to us if you could give us facts upon which you base your opinion, you see? Now, you have given us one fact—he had a sad look on his face. If you could tell us the things that he said or did.

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t recall anything that he said that day, no more than—he said the club was going to be closed and immediately I got on the phone and started to making phone calls.

Mr. Hubert. To all the people who were concerned?

Mr. Armstrong. Right, to all the people.

Mr. Hubert. And the object was to tell them not to come in that night?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes—I know now—and it was around 6 o’clock, because one of the girls was getting ready to come down to town, one of the waitresses. They had to be there at 7:30, so it was around 6:30—between 6 and 6:30 when I was making the phone calls.

Mr. Hubert. I think you said you tried to call Karen Bennett Carlin then, but you couldn’t reach her?

Mr. Armstrong. Couldn’t reach her, and I believe Jack said, “I will call her later.”

Mr. Hubert. You mean he undertook to call her?

Mr. Armstrong. He told me to keep trying and he would try to call her, too, and he left and went home.

Mr. Hubert. What time did he leave?

Mr. Armstrong. He left about 7 o’clock, between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. Hubert. So, he was there roughly between an hour and an hour and a half?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. You were making all these phone calls?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, and he asked me to stay there until about 8 o’clock, just in case any customers called and if they did, to tell them we would be closed until Monday, and he called me back and he said, “What time are you leaving?” I said, “Well, 8 o’clock, I want to go home.” He said, “Well, will you stay on to 10?” I said, “What should I stay here until 10 o’clock for?”

Mr. Hubert. Where was he calling from, do you know?

Mr. Armstrong. He was calling from home, I’m pretty sure it was from home.

Mr. Hubert. What gives you that impression?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, because he had said, “If anything come up, call me.”

Mr. Hubert. To call him at home?

Mr. Armstrong. He just said, “Call me,” so—he always just said, “Call me” when he was at home and if he was not at home, he would always give me a number.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, when he said, “If anything happens, call me,” you knew that that meant he was at home, because that was the custom?

Mr. Armstrong. Right, and so we got into a discussion of whether I should stay there until 10 o’clock or should I leave at 8 o’clock, and I said, “Well, I’m leaving at 8 o’clock,” and he said, “Well, just get on out of the club and don’t come back no more.” And slammed the phone down.

Mr. Hubert. That was about a half hour after he left, wasn’t it?

Mr. Armstrong. Right, but I stayed there until 8 o’clock, like I said I was going to stay, and I closed the club up and went home.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear from him any more that day?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now, on Sunday, did you go to the club?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I had planned on going to the club—I was planning on looking for another job Monday morning, because I said—“This is it.” I had already made up my mind then I wasn’t going back to work there, no matter what happened.

Mr. Hubert. Why?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I just got fed up.

Mr. Hubert. But this had happened, I think you said, 35 times or so?

Mr. Armstrong. Something like that.

Mr. Hubert. What you mean to say is that the last time is the straw that broke the camel’s back sort of thing?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But you had definitely made up your mind that this time you weren’t going back?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And that this time you were going to start looking for a job on Monday morning?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to the club on Sunday?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, after I heard about it—well, I was listening to the radio that morning—I was not looking at television.

Mr. Hubert. You were home then?

Mr. Armstrong. Right; it was Sunday morning?

Mr. Hubert. That’s right.

Mr. Armstrong. When I heard about the shooting of Oswald and they said it was a well-known nightclub owner, and so I got a phone call—no, then, it come on the radio that it was Jack Ruby and I got a phone call is when I found out it was on television.

Mr. Hubert. Who called you?

Mr. Armstrong. A friend of mine—William Morris. He used to help me down at the club some Saturday nights when we had a big convention in—he would come down and help me out at the bar.

Mr. Hubert. And then what—he called you and told you it was Ruby?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I knowed it was Ruby—they said that on the radio.

Mr. Hubert. Then, Morris called you and told you it was on television?

Mr. Armstrong. He said, “Did you see it on television?” And I said, “No; I didn’t see it on television.” He said, “Well, turn the television on.” And so I turned the television on and they rerun the shooting, and what I saw on the TV was a rerun.

Mr. Hubert. I understand.

Mr. Armstrong. And so—about—sometime during that day, I forget what time it was, I called Ralph Paul.

Mr. Hubert. What time was it actually, and where was it from?

Mr. Armstrong. From home.

Mr. Hubert. That’s a long-distance call, wasn’t it?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So, there would be a record of that?

Mr. Armstrong. Right, and he said——

Mr. Hubert. Let’s do it this way—can you tell us how long after you saw the rerun that you called Paul?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t know whether it was before I went down to the club or after I went down to the club.

Mr. Hubert. You said you had called from your home?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes—you see, when I went down to the club I wasn’t gone but an hour.

Mr. Hubert. What did you go down to the club for?

Mr. Armstrong. I went down and fed the dogs, because I knew that they would be down there all day long without any food, and Clipper, I was crazy about and I didn’t want him going hungry—that was the only two dogs there, so I fed the dogs—went down and fed the dogs and there was a newsman in front of the club and he tried to grab me when I came out.

Mr. Hubert. The police did too?

Mr. Armstrong. No; just the newsman, but I didn’t give him any statement or anything. I had called a friend of mine to bring me downtown and I went and got in the car and went on back home.

Mr. Hubert. So, you are not sure whether you called Paul from the club or from the house?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I know I called him from home, but I don’t know if it was before or after—it was around 12 o’clock, I imagine, when I got downtown—somewhere along in there, but when I did call Ralph, I said, “What are you going to do, open the club up?” He said, “Meet me down there Monday,” and I did meet him down at the club Monday and decided to keep the club open.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any conversations with anyone else during the course of Sunday?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Were you interviewed by the FBI Sunday?

Mr. Armstrong. Not Sunday.

Mr. Hubert. You were not interviewed until Monday?

Mr. Armstrong. Not until Monday.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you when they interviewed you then?

Mr. Armstrong. At the club—Monday night.

Mr. Hubert. The club was open then?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. You were managing it for Ralph Paul?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I wasn’t managing it—he managed it himself.

Mr. Hubert. You met him there Monday—Paul?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was it during the daytime?

Mr. Armstrong. It was during the daytime.

Mr. Hubert. He decided to keep on running it and asked you if you would just keep on with it?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes—oh, yes; I did call Eva Grant.

Mr. Hubert. Who?

Mr. Armstrong. Mrs. Grant.

Mr. Hubert. What day was this?

Mr. Armstrong. On Sunday—no, no—on Monday.

Mr. Hubert. You did not speak to her on Sunday?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I called her on Monday and told her Jack had fired me—this was Monday morning. She said, “Well, nonsense, you know how Jack is. Go on down to the club. Mr. Ralph said he would meet me down there.” And she said, “You know how my brother is, he was disturbed, he didn’t know what he was doing anyway.”

Mr. Hubert. Paul had just simply told you to meet him at the club?

Mr. Armstrong. He didn’t know anything about the firing, but I told him at the club—Monday. Now, when I told him, he said, “How many times does that make?”

Mr. Hubert. Who said that—Ralph Paul said that to you?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I said, “I don’t know, about a hundred, I guess.”

Mr. Hubert. How long did the club continue to operate?

Mr. Armstrong. It continued to operate until February, I think it was, the last of February—the last Friday in February.

Mr. Hubert. Who decided to close it?

Mr. Armstrong. The vice squad decided to close it.

Mr. Hubert. For what reason?

Mr. Armstrong. I mean, the Liquor Control Board.

Mr. Hubert. Because the license hadn’t been paid?

Mr. Armstrong. Because the license was in Jack’s name and it was obvious he had violated those liquor licenses when he shot Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen anybody at the club that looked like Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong. No; never did.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen Oswald himself in the club?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever tell anybody that you had?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Specifically, did you ever tell Larry Crafard that you had?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Billy DeMar?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who is he?

Mr. Armstrong. He was an M.C.

Mr. Hubert. He also had a memory act, didn’t he?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, he did.

Mr. Hubert. You have heard the story, haven’t you?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I have heard the story.

Mr. Hubert. That he said he had seen Oswald in the club?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s what he told me—he said he thought that he saw somebody that could have been Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. When did he tell you that?

Mr. Armstrong. That was later—he said—he was walking around every night saying that the newspaper misunderstood what he had said. He said he definitely did not state the statement that they had in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think it is possible that you told Larry Crafard that you had seen him, that you thought you had seen somebody that looked like Oswald in the club?

Mr. Armstrong. No, it isn’t possible—no.

Mr. Hubert. We have been going for 3 hours, and let’s adjourn for lunch.

(At this point the proceedings in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong were recessed for lunch and resumed at 1:35 p.m. on the same date, April 14, 1964, as follows:)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Armstrong, you understand that we are continuing the deposition which we started this morning, and which we adjourned at about noon, and you understand that we are continuing it under the same oath and conditions upon which it was begun. You understand further that you are under the same oath you took this morning at the very beginning of the deposition?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider yourself to be under that same oath?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Let me clarify one point before I go further—with reference to the gun or pistol that you have already testified about, can you give us a description of it?

Mr. Armstrong. Let’s see—it was not a large gun, a small barrel on it, I guess you would call it a snub nose.

Mr. Hubert. I notice you were holding your fingers apart there?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And would you say you were holding them about 5 inches apart?

Mr. Armstrong. About 5 inches, I would say.

Mr. Hubert. And that’s the whole length of the gun from one tip to the other?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a revolver?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I think it was a revolver.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what kind of barrel it had on it?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it had a little short barrel.

Mr. Hubert. But I mean, what color was it; black, blue, steel?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it was—I don’t remember—I only saw the gun, you know, in sight—you know I saw the bag a jillion times, but the gun only a couple of times, I would say.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of handle did it have on it; do you remember?

Mr. Armstrong. I think it had a brown handle on it.

Mr. Hubert. Did Mr. Ruby have a holster for that gun?

Mr. Armstrong. I never saw it with one—I never saw a holster.

Mr. Hubert. Now, by a holster, I am including both types of holsters, one that is worn on the belt around the hip and one that is worn slung around the shoulders and the gun is usually in the armpit, you know what I mean?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You never saw either type?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, as I understood your testimony, you never saw him actually carry it on his person at all?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Either in his pocket or stuck in his belt or otherwise?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whose gun that was?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I assumed it was his gun.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear any talk about whose gun it was?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he asked me where is my gun—the few times he came in and left it in the kitchen and asked me about it and I would say, “You left it in the kitchen, or some place like that.”

Mr. Hubert. All right. Turning to another subject—did you ever observe any particular interest on the part of Ruby with reference to police or police work?

Mr. Armstrong. Any particular part or effort?

Mr. Hubert. Any particular interest on his part in police or police work—generally?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever in your presence express any views toward the police—good or bad?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, the only views he ever spoke was good views.

Mr. Hubert. Could you give us an example?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, just that he didn’t like to hear anyone knocking the police department.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear anyone knock the police department in his presence?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, no, not direct—saying any bad things about the police department, but someone might have made a statement about the police department and he would not like it.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, are you drawing on your imagination for that, or do you remember a specific instance in which he indicated that he did not like a person speaking in a bad way about the police?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I don’t remember—in my mind I was trying to remember—to recall an incident, but I don’t remember an incident, but there was an incident, I’m sure.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand you, then, you definitely have the impression that he did not like people talking badly about the police?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember any specific instance which you can give us as an example of how you formed that impression?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. But the impression, nevertheless, is in your mind?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever heard him discuss politics?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. What opinion do you have concerning his interest in politics?

Mr. Armstrong. His interest was that—I have heard him say—I have heard him say this, that anybody that was elected to hold a certain office must be responsible and capable of taking care of that position or they wouldn’t be elected.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that is a specific instance that you remember?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us when it was?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t remember when it was, but I remember that incident—I know who he was talking to—it was just a conversation and I happened to be there and to hear this party.

Mr. Hubert. His view, generally, then, was that an elected official should be respected, is that the idea?

Mr. Hubert. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Because they had been elected by the people?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss the President of the United States?

Mr. Armstrong. I’m sure I have—everybody has, but I don’t know of what nature or what subject, but I’m sure I heard him discuss the President.

Mr. Hubert. Now, of course, you know that in this country as perhaps all over the world there are different views about government, and society normally called “isms” left or right or communisms or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or things of that sort?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever heard Ruby express himself in areas of thought such as those?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I know he threw a guy out of the club once for speaking as a Communist.

Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us about that?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it was just that this guy was heckling with the MC, Wally Weston, and he was coming on like he was a large portion of the Communist Party.

Mr. Hubert. This man was—this patron?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; and Wally stepped off of the stage—he made a remark that——

Mr. Hubert. When you say “he” do you mean Wally?

Mr. Armstrong. No; the customer made a remark that Wally could be—made a remark something similar to Wally could be a Communist or something like that too, in other words, “How do I know, you may be a Communist, too,” or something like that. And, Wally stepped off of the stage and said, “Don’t you call me a Communist,” and he hit the guy and by the time he hit him Jack had him and was rushing him out the door, and told him, “Never come back in this club no more.”

Mr. Hubert. Did he push him out of the door?

Mr. Armstrong. He pushed him out of the door—he pushed him up against the wall and told him to go out the door.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t hit him?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he didn’t hit him—Wally hit him.

Mr. Hubert. And Jack hustled him out?

Mr. Armstrong. When you go out the door, you are going to face a wall—in other words, the stairways come up like this [indicating], and the door is here and you’ve got to turn and go down the stairway and he shoved the guy right on into the wall.

Mr. Hubert. Then he walked down the stairs?

Mr. Armstrong. Then he hurried down the stairs.

Mr. Hubert. When was this incident?

Mr. Armstrong. It was—I would say around the last of September or somewhere along in there or October.

Mr. Hubert. What makes you fix the date?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it was toward the last part of the summer, I’m sure.

Mr. Hubert. This man had been in the audience boasting, you say, that he was a big shot Communist?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, not a big shot, but he come on like he was a big portion of the Communist Party.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of looking man was he?

Mr. Armstrong. He was a young fellow with two other young couples from Arlington State College—I think that’s where he said he was from.

Mr. Hubert. Who told you that?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, that’s what they said—that’s what they had said, Wally had asked them where they was from and he said he was a student at Arlington—I’m sure they said Arlington.

Mr. Hubert. At where?

Mr. Armstrong. At Arlington College.

Mr. Hubert. At Arlington State College?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where is that located?

Mr. Armstrong. In Arlington, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. And you say there were two couples?

Mr. Armstrong. No; there were two men and a lady.

Mr. Hubert. And it was one of the men who was going on like he was a big Communist?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. The other man and the lady were quiet?

Mr. Armstrong. They were quiet and never said a thing and they apologized for his behavior after Jack had put this other guy out.

Mr. Hubert. Did they stay on?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; they said—Wally said, “Are you going to follow your friend?” And they said, “No; we couldn’t say he was a friend of ours, and we just happened to be together.” And then he dropped out.

Mr. Hubert. How was this man dressed, do you know?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he had a suit on.

Mr. Hubert. How old a man was he?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, about 21 or 22, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. How tall was he?

Mr. Armstrong. About 5 feet 9, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. What would be your estimate of his weight?

Mr. Armstrong. Not much over 150 or 160.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have a tie on?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; he had a tie on.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have a mustache?

Mr. Armstrong. No mustache.

Mr. Hubert. What color was his hair?

Mr. Armstrong. I think he had dark—I don’t know whether it was black or dark brown, but it was dark.

Mr. Hubert. I would like, if you could, for you to fix the time of that incident a bit closer than you have been able to do it so far.

Mr. Armstrong. Well, no; I couldn’t—the air conditioners were running.

Mr. Hubert. The air conditioners were running?

Mr. Armstrong. And it was around the last of August—it wasn’t too—well, if you could ask Wally he probably could give you a better date than I could when it was.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember the night of the week?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Would it be helpful if you tried to estimate how long before the assassination of the President this all happened?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was Crafard there then?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he came after.

Mr. Hubert. That was before Crafard came?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. About how long was it before Crafard came?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know—well—it was sometime during the summer

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to Ruby about it afterwards?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear Ruby say anything about it afterwards?

Mr. Armstrong. No; Wally and I discussed it.

Mr. Hubert. What was the nature of that discussion?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I was teasing him about his right hook.

Mr. Hubert. His what?

Mr. Armstrong. His right hook.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he hit the guy pretty good?

Mr. Armstrong. You see, Wally split his hand open and I got some band-aids and bandaged it up a little bit and helped him clean it off.

Mr. Hubert. Where is Wally Weston now?

Mr. Armstrong. Where is he?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know—he was working at the Club Montemarte, but he’s not there any more and I’m sure he’s not in town now, so he’s probably on the road some place.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember any other people who were there that night, such as George Senator or Ralph Paul?

Mr. Armstrong. No; things like that I don’t try to remember.

Mr. Hubert. When did Weston leave, do you remember?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, let’s see, Wally left in September, I think.

Mr. Hubert. And how long had he been there?

Mr. Armstrong. He had been there since about June 1961—no, 1962, I’m sorry.

Mr. Hubert. He was there about 15 months, but you thought that it was in the last month that he was there?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; somewhere right around the last few months he was there.

Mr. Hubert. Well, if he left in September—you thought earlier than that—it might be, this incident might have occurred in August, if that’s the case, it wouldn’t be then?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, when he left there—he still had that scar—it was still sort of open a little bit on his hand, and it hadn’t been healed up—well, it had healed, but it was such a big gash and you could still see the print where they took the stitches out.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have to go to the hospital?

Mr. Armstrong. He had some stitches taken in his hand.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us anything from your own knowledge, that is having heard or seen things at the club, which would throw light upon Ruby’s attitude toward the race question, the Jewish question, and so forth?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever heard him fussing with his entertainers who cracked jokes about Jews?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he didn’t like for the entertainers to crack any jokes about Jews or to tell any Jewish stories.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he told me himself.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what he told you.

Mr. Armstrong. Well, you see, Wally and some of the other M.C.’s have some pretty good jokes about Negroes and Jack told me once——

Mr. Hubert. Who told you?

Mr. Armstrong. Jack asked me once—did Wally’s jokes offend men in any kind of way, and I told him “no”. So, he said—well, there was something about it he didn’t like—the reason why he didn’t like his M.C.’s to tell any Jewish jokes was something about the Jews have already had enough problems and enough troubles already or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t think so—I wouldn’t say that he was proud of being a Jew, I wouldn’t say he was not proud, because I don’t know. He never showed anything to give me any kind of reason to form an opinion about that.

Mr. Hubert. When Larry Crafard left and you found out about it, what was your reaction?

Mr. Armstrong. I didn’t have any reaction.

Mr. Hubert. What did you think about it?

Mr. Armstrong. Nothing; just plumb nothing.

Mr. Hubert. Well, weren’t you surprised that this man should go off like that?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Why not—it was rather strange conduct just to pick up and leave?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I didn’t give it any thought—he left the way he came. He came unexpectedly and he left unexpectedly. It didn’t bother me one bit whether he stayed or whether he left.

Mr. Hubert. Did you, prior to the shooting of Oswald, give any thought to the possibility that maybe this man Crafard was getting out of town for some reason?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know how he was getting out of town?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I didn’t—I didn’t know how he was leaving.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever found out?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I didn’t ask him when I saw him at the trial.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about what conversation you—there was between you and Crafard at the trial of Ruby?

Mr. Armstrong. No conversation at all. He did most of the talking.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what he said?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he didn’t say anything, but he said something about—he was surprised when he heard about Jack—the shooting of Oswald, and Jack, and that the FBI had contacted him, and I just told him that I had found the letter from this girl Gayle and had given it to the FBI and that was about all there was—that was about it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you where he had been?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he didn’t tell me where he had been. He said he had a job in some kind of mine somewhere up in Missouri or wherever he was, and he left there to come back here to the trial.

Mr. Hubert. He told you that he had come to Dallas for the purpose of attending the trial?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; for the purpose of testifying.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember where it was you spoke to him?

Mr. Armstrong. In the county courthouse downtown.

Mr. Hubert. You mean just in the hallway?

Mr. Armstrong. Downstairs—just as you come in the door.

Mr. Hubert. You only had one conversation with him?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; that afternoon I was on my way back after recess and he was on one side of the street and I was on the other side of the street and he saw me and he came across the street and he said, “You remember this suit?” It was the suit that Jack bought him, and I said, “Yes.” And he said, “This is all I’ve got—that Jack bought it for me.”

Mr. Hubert. Is that the only other time you spoke to him?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s the only time.

Mr. Hubert. How long did the conversation last?

Mr. Armstrong. Not longer than a few minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you give any thought to the possibility that Crafard’s sudden departure the way he went might be linked up with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You never have given any thought to that?

Mr. Armstrong. No, no; not at all.

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the shooting of Oswald, and now that you look back on it, can you tell us anything that indicated that he might have been thinking of doing it?

Mr. Armstrong. That Jack might have been thinking of doing it?

Mr. Hubert. You understand I don’t mean that you knew prior to the shooting that he was going to do it, but now that you look back on those days.

Mr. Armstrong. I know what you mean.

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything that you can remember?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. That might throw some light on what he was thinking about in that regard?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t believe he was thinking about it until after he did it. The reason why I say that, because you’ve got to know Jack—he always did things on the spur of the moment, you know. He always blowed up just like that [snapping his fingers], if something disturbed him, he would always just crack up. He was charming one minute and the next minute he was all riled up.

Mr. Hubert. Were you interviewed by the Dallas police concerning this matter?

Mr. Armstrong. No; never.

Mr. Hubert. Never?

Mr. Armstrong. Never.

Mr. Hubert. Were you interviewed by the district attorney?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or any of his staff?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Were you interviewed by Jack Ruby’s attorneys?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You were subpenaed to go to the trial?

Mr. Armstrong. I was subpenaed to go to the trial.

Mr. Hubert. Did anyone ever talk to you about the nature of the testimony you were expected to give?

Mr. Armstrong. No; the only someone I talked to is Belli. He came up to the club the first night, the second day he was in town, and he asked me what did I think of Jack Ruby, when I was letting him in the office, he hadn’t gotten in the office good before he asked me that, and I told him, and he said “Okay,” and nobody ever talked to me since then.

Mr. Hubert. What did you tell him?

Mr. Armstrong. The same thing I told you—about him cracking up—he just—everything he did, he did it on impulse.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you about that or did you volunteer that?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he asked me—he just popped up and asked me.

Mr. Hubert. Did he pop up and ask you, “What do you think about Jack Ruby?” Or, did he ask you “Does he pop up and flare up suddenly?”

Mr. Armstrong. No; here’s the exact words he asked me, “Why do you think Jack shot Oswald?”

Mr. Hubert. And what did you tell him?

Mr. Armstrong. Just that he did it on an impulse, is the only reason at all—just cracked up and shot the man.

Mr. Hubert. But Ruby never carried a gun around on his person, did he?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. He had a gun that day with him, though? Would that influence your thinking somewhat?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. And from what I understand of your previous testimony, the that fact that he would have a gun on him would be unusual; wouldn’t it?

Mr. Armstrong. Coming in and out of the club, yes; but I don’t know whether he carried it on him or not when he was not coming in and out of the club. In other words, I was stating that if he did carry a gun—when I saw him with a gun, it was always in a bag, never on him, but when he was away from the club—I don’t know where he had this gun.

Mr. Hubert. But your impression was that he didn’t carry it?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, when you found that he did carry it on the day he shot Oswald, didn’t that rather surprise you?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, no; my wife asked me, “What was Jack doing with a gun?” And I said, “I don’t know. He might have just had it in the car and didn’t want to open the trunk because he had that money in there, probably, and just stuck it in his pocket and wasn’t in his senses that he had been in all the time.”

Mr. Hubert. Your wife, in fact, was curious about the same things I’m asking you about?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Why would she have been curious about that?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it was because that she never knew that he carried one and she didn’t like guns, so when it come to the question of a gun, she, by being a woman, and you know how women are about being curious, she asked the question, but she asked a whole lot of other questions about things she never knew.

Mr. Hubert. So, your testimony is that when you found that Ruby had shot Oswald, you were not surprised that he was carrying a gun?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I wasn’t surprised.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever talked to any members of Ruby’s family about the man?

Mr. Armstrong. About the gun?

Mr. Hubert. No; about Ruby’s case.

Mr. Armstrong. No; not other than Mrs. Grant called me and talked to me and she would do most of the talking—this and that and it’s always about the same thing and it just bugs me, you know.

Mr. Hubert. You have only spoken to her by phone since Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I spoke to her in person. I have seen her at the club a couple of times. She has been up there and I have seen her down at the courthouse and I saw her a number of times up to the club after the club had been closed, down at the club trying to sell it.

Mr. Hubert. Did she ever talk about the case itself?

Mr. Armstrong. No; not to—not any more than any other sister would say when her brother was being locked up or committed a crime.

Mr. Hubert. Well, when you were subpenaed, did you ever ask her or anybody what they were calling you for?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I didn’t ask anyone.

Mr. Hubert. And you just hung around the court during the entire time of the trial?

Mr. Armstrong. Not the entire time of the trial; the last week of the trial—Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

Mr. Hubert. Those were the only 3 days you were there?

Mr. Armstrong. Just those 3 days.

Mr. Hubert. You received your subpena after the trial began?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you were there for 3 days?

Mr. Armstrong. Three days.

Mr. Hubert. The trial ended on Saturday, I think?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Who excused you?

Mr. Armstrong. Phil Burleson.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you why?

Mr. Armstrong. He just said—I asked him the second day—I ask him, I said, “Well, listen, when are you going to use me, because I’ve got a job and these people are not going to hold off—they are going to hire somebody else.”

And he said, “We are going to put you on tomorrow, in fact we will get to you tomorrow,” and Belli changed his mind about using me on account of the record I have.

Mr. Hubert. How did you find that out?

Mr. Armstrong. Phil Burleson came out that afternoon and told me and I kept asking him—no, that was after the judge had recessed for that day, I asked him, I said, “Listen, I’ve got to go to work tomorrow,” and he says, “Well, go ahead, Belli is not going to use you on account of your record,” and so, to my surprise I lost my job by not being able to work those 3 days.

Mr. Hubert. Who were you employed by then?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, I had just started with Yardell Construction Co., they build houses—homes.

Mr. Hubert. Other than the time you spoke to Belli at the club and he asked you what you thought about Jack or why he killed him and you told him, did you ever speak to Belli or anybody else about what your testimony would be about?

Mr. Armstrong. No; never.

Mr. Hubert. So, that as far as you know, they were going to question you about your opinion about Jack?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; that’s what I thought.

Mr. Hubert. And then, Burleson told you the reason they couldn’t use you was because of your record?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen pictures of Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong. In the paper?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I guess you saw pictures on TV and some of the famous pictures that were published at the time he got shot?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Does he bear any resemblance to that man that had the fight with Wally Weston?

Mr. Armstrong. No; this gentleman that had the fight with Wally Weston was sort of a young loudmouth, a smart alec—he had kind of a full face—a handsome fellow.

Mr. Hubert. You are willing to state that it was not the man whom you have come to know through pictures as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And you would be positive about that?

Mr. Armstrong. Positive.

Mr. Hubert. You worked for a man by the name of Roland Davis one time?

Mr. Armstrong. Roland Davis?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; I think he was connected someway with the El Rancho Hotel.

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You worked there in 1961?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes; that was right after I got out—I have forgotten about that—right after I got back.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. Armstrong. I was a night clerk at the motel.

Mr. Hubert. Who hired you?

Mr. Armstrong. Mr. Davis.

Mr. Hubert. Does Mr. Davis have other lines besides running the motel?

Mr. Armstrong. Not that I know.

Mr. Hubert. Was he engaged in selling—in dealing with Jeeps?

Mr. Armstrong. No; I never saw any Jeeps. The only cars I saw he would own was a Cadillac and a station wagon that had “El Rancho” on the side of his station wagon.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Ruby was ever involved in trading in automobiles with Jeeps?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You never heard that at all?

Air. Armstrong. He just could get a car, from what I gather.

Mr. Hubert. What was that?

Mr. Armstrong. He just could get a car from what I get.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I wasn’t thinking of his buying Jeeps for his own use, but trading in them. That is to say, as a business.

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a Nancy Jo Mooney?

Mr. Armstrong. Nancy Jo Mooney; no.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did you know one by the name of Betty MacDonald?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear of a girl who had worked at the Carousel as either a waitress or a stripper who committed suicide about the middle of February of this year?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. By hanging herself in jail?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. And she was arrested.

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You have never heard anything about that?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. And any of those names—Betty MacDonald or Nancy Jo Mooney mean nothing to you?

Mr. Armstrong. There was a girl named Nancy who worked at the club for a few nights or a few weeks—I don’t recall. There were so many girls came there—some of them I don’t even remember their names, but I don’t know whether it was Jo Mooney or what her last name was—as a matter of fact, I don’t even recall how she looked, but I remember writing the name Nancy as a waitress.

Mr. Hubert. Did they have a Polaroid camera at the club?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was it used for?

Mr. Armstrong. To make pictures of the twisting, customers doing the twist on the stage, which the M.C. would use to make a joke with them—and give the customers the picture.

Mr. Hubert. Who operated that camera?

Mr. Armstrong. I did.

Mr. Hubert. Did Larry Crafard do so also?

Mr. Armstrong. One Sunday night, I think he did—I remember showing him how to operate it.

Mr. Hubert. Were those the only pictures that were allowed to be taken in there?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear of any other photographer?

Mr. Armstrong. Well—there was——

Mr. Hubert. Who would come in and take pictures?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, there was this magazine that came in to make some shots, but they required—that was for the magazine article did on the Carousel Club, which, anybody that appeared in the picture that was a customer signed a release on that picture, or if they did not sign a release on the picture, it couldn’t be used.

Mr. Hubert. When did that take place?

Mr. Armstrong. That took place sometime between the last of October and the first of November. Larry was there—he came there the last of October—it must have been the first of November.

Mr. Hubert. Must have been around the first of November—did he stay just 1 night?

Mr. Armstrong. No, no; 1 week.

Mr. Hubert. What was the man’s name, do you know?

Mr. Armstrong. Offhand, I can’t recall his name.

Mr. Hubert. Was his name Rocco?

Mr. Armstrong. Rocco; that’s right.

Mr. Hubert. And he took a series of pictures?

Mr. Armstrong. He took a series of pictures.

Mr. Hubert. He stayed about a week and then left?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. But other than that, there were no pictures taken?

Mr. Armstrong. No, no other pictures.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Jimmy Rhodes?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who was he?

Mr. Armstrong. He’s a photographer.

Mr. Hubert. Did he come around?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he take pictures?

Mr. Armstrong. Of the girls—usually at his studio. If he made any at the club, it was not during business. It was all right for anybody—there was lots of pictures made, you know, like during the day, if the girls wanted to come up and pose for the photographers and things like that, that was okay, but when I said no other pictures were made in the club, I was speaking of during business.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, there was no commercial photographer there who would take the pictures of the patrons and sell them to them; is that right?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. But anybody could take pictures if they wanted to?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, if they come in after I get there in the daytime and tell me they would be there to make pictures.

Mr. Hubert. I mean, during the shows?

Mr. Armstrong. No, no; anybody couldn’t take pictures, if we saw anyone with a camera we would take it away from them—they had to check them.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, it was prohibited to take pictures?

Mr. Armstrong. They was prohibited from taking pictures.

Mr. Hubert. And nobody you knew of could take pictures except Jimmy Rhodes and Rocco and of course you, with your Polaroid?

Mr. Armstrong. Right, but Jimmy Rhodes could not take pictures during business. In other words, when we had customers in the house and there was a show going on, no one could take any pictures but Rocco is the only one I know that made pictures, besides myself, when there was a show going on and we had customers in the club. I’m speaking of before this assassination.

Mr. Hubert. Yes. Did you know Officer Tippit, the man that was shot by Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew him?

Mr Armstrong. He said that he knew Officer Tippit, but from what I gather later on—Mrs. Grant told me it was a different Officer Tippit that he knew. In other words, there was two officers that had the name of Tippit, from what I gather, and Jack said when the news was coming over the radio about the policeman being shot, that it was Officer Tippit; Jack jumped straight up and said, “I know him—I know him.” Just like that.

Mr. Hubert. What was his reaction to the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he said—he was in a sort of—he said, “Isn’t it a shame?” You know.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to be as disturbed about the shooting of Tippit as he was about the shooting of the President?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, he was already disturbed and he didn’t show to be any more disturbed over that than he already were.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know about a girl named Gloria?

Mr. Armstrong. There was a girl named Gloria that worked up there—I can’t recall how she looked, but I remember the name Gloria.

Mr. Hubert. How do you remember her?

Mr. Armstrong. By the name.

Mr. Hubert. What was she doing in the club?

Mr. Armstrong. She was a waitress—I don’t know whether she did any dancing or not on the amateurs, but I know that there was a girl by the name of Gloria.

Mr. Hubert. Was she with Ruby, did she date him, or what?

Mr. Armstrong. Not that I know of—it wasn’t one of the girls that I hired, so he must have brought her in.

Mr. Hubert. How long did she stay there?

Mr. Armstrong. Not long.

Mr. Hubert. Well, how many days?

Mr. Armstrong. I couldn’t say—a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month—I don’t know. It couldn’t have been over a month though, because the girls that stayed there usually stayed there a month or 2 months—I usually remember them quite well.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t there some girl that was going with Jack during the last 2 or 3 days before the President was shot?

Mr. Armstrong. No, not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember a girl by the name of Joyce Lee McDonald?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What do you know about her?

Mr. Armstrong. She is a stripper. Her name is—her stage name is Joy Dale.

Mr. Hubert. Was she at the club?

Mr. Armstrong. She was at the club.

Mr. Hubert. During what period?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, during the period of—I would say 2 months before the assassination through the end of the year. She left about the third week in January, I would say, approximately 3 weeks she worked during 1964.

Mr. Hubert. She was a stripper, was she?

Mr. Armstrong. She was a stripper.

Mr. Hubert. You have heard that Jack was supposed to have been in the B & B Cafe with some girl either before the President was shot, the night before or the night after, haven’t you?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, I heard that.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, I think you were asked about that by the FBI?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know—I don’t know whether I was or not. Somebody asked me about it—yes, I’m pretty sure it must have been the FBI.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you identify the girl as being Joyce McDonald?

Mr. Armstrong. No, I don’t recall—no, I wouldn’t have—I wouldn’t have identified the girl as being Joyce McDonald, because I wouldn’t have had any way of knowing who it was unless they described her to me, and as I said, it could have been Joyce.

Mr. Hubert. You remember a girl who worked about 5 or 6 nights at the Carousel Club and whom Ruby had taken home after closing hours on each of the nights she worked?

This was a girl that you tried to locate after Oswald was shot to help you run the club?

Do you remember looking for such a girl?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, that was the lady—oh—I don’t recall her name now—“Duckie” or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that lady, in any case?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, all I know is that Jack had told me she had some knowledge of club running and that she was very smart and sharp and when I had went to see him, he had suggested that if I—he said——

Mr. Hubert. You mean when you went to see him in jail?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, he said, “I don’t want to be involved with the club any more, but if you want to do it, you can contact this lady.” He give me her name—it was “Duckie” or something like that, to come down and give you a hand, because she knows something about operating a club and you can talk to Ralph about it.

Mr. Hubert. And you tried to find that girl?

Mr. Armstrong. I tried to contact her and I didn’t have any luck and I told Ralph about it and he said “forget it.”

Mr. Hubert. Now, that girl you remember as being the girl who had been around the club four or five or six times; isn’t that correct?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. And that Jack used to take home at night?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t mean to his house, but he did—he left with her, at any rate?

Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know whether he left with her or not because I leave before he does.

Mr. Hubert. Well, do you remember making the statement to the FBI to the effect you knew of one girl there that worked for 5 or 6 nights, it was the same girl you looked for later, and that Ruby had taken her home after closing hours on each of the nights she had worked there?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You say you went to see Jack in the jail?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How many times did you go to see him?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, five or six, maybe seven times.

Mr. Hubert. Were you alone with him all the time?

Mr. Armstrong. No; there was always a policeman standing there. A guard.

Mr. Hubert. Did he talk about his difficulties?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. What did he talk about?

Mr. Armstrong. He talked mostly about the dogs and——

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about Sheba?

Mr. Armstrong. Just that see that Sheba don’t eat too much because she will get too fat.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about leaving Sheba in the automobile that Sunday when Oswald was shot?

Mr. Armstrong. He didn’t say—he didn’t mention that to me. The first time I went to see him I asked him where were Sheba and he told me he had left her in the automobile and later on, so he told me, to contact the pound, to see if the pound had Sheba, and would they release her, so I called the pound and the pound said that they had her, and Joy Dale went out and picked her up and brought her to the club.

Mr. Hubert. That’s the McDonald girl?

Mr. Armstrong. That’s the McDonald girl.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell Jack about that?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack tell you how he got in the basement?

Mr. Armstrong. No; he never discussed the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you about having sent a money telegram to Karen Bennett that morning?

Mr. Armstrong. He told me that.

Mr. Hubert. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. Armstrong. He said he had sent—that Little Lynn owed him $20 or $25, whatever it was, he sent her, plus some more money that she had already drawed that was not on the record, before they paid the payroll, and deduct it from her salary.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you the circumstances under which he had sent her money?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you he sent it by telegram?

Mr. Armstrong. He didn’t tell me he sent it by telegram—no; he didn’t tell me, but Little Lynn told me.

Mr. Hubert. What did Little Lynn tell you?

Mr. Armstrong. She just said that Jack had sent her the money. You see, I asked her first how much money had she drew and she told me and she also told me that Jack had sent her about $25, I think it was, by telegram.

Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you why she needed the money by wire?

Mr. Armstrong. No; she didn’t tell me why.

Mr. Hubert. Her pay wasn’t due until Sunday night, isn’t that right?

Mr. Armstrong. Until Sunday night, which we was closed, they didn’t get paid Sunday night.

Mr. Hubert. They got paid Monday night?

Mr. Armstrong. I think it was Tuesday before they got paid.

Mr. Hubert. And it was then that you deducted from Little Lynn’s pay the amount that had been advanced to her?

Mr. Armstrong. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Had you seen Jack yet?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes, I saw Jack on Monday.

Mr. Hubert. But he didn’t mention to you that the money had been sent to her by telegram?

Mr. Armstrong. He—yes, he said that he sent the money—he said, “I sent Little Lynn $25”—he said, “I sent Little Lynn $25.” He didn’t tell me about telegram.

Mr. Hubert. He never discussed with you at all how he got into the jail house?

Mr. Armstrong. No, never did.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever talk to you about, or did you know that he could go to the police department and find his way about because he knew a lot of people over there?

Mr. Armstrong. No, he never talked to me about that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know that to be a fact?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. That he could do that?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. On these 8 or 10 visits that you made to Jack, he never had discussed with you one single aspect of the killing of Oswald, is that right?

Mr. Armstrong. No, never did.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of your visits, generally, then?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, just, I guess to see how he was doing, to say, “Hello” and to send him messages that the girls had sent him and carry his mail down there if he had any addressed to him personally.

Mr. Hubert. How would you handle the mail?

Mr. Armstrong. I would give it to Mr. Decker.

Mr. Hubert. The sheriff first?

Mr. Armstrong. To the sheriff.

Mr. Hubert. Has anybody given you any money other than what you have earned?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. You have had your regular salary all the time that you worked for the Carousel until it closed?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was it more or less than you were receiving before?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it was a little more.

Mr. Hubert. What was it?

Mr. Armstrong. It was $60.

Mr. Hubert. Instead of $45?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Other than that money, did you receive any money from Ralph Paul or any of the brothers and sisters of Ruby?

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or, from any other source?

Mr. Armstrong. No, no more than tips, you know, like that.

Mr. Hubert. Yes, I understand that, but I mean no other sums of money in excess of $5?

Mr. Armstrong. Pardon?

Mr. Hubert. No other sums of money in excess of $5?

Mr. Armstrong. $5?

Mr. Hubert. Well, let’s put it this way—you received your salary and you received tips?

Mr. Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get any single tip that was over $5 at any time?

Mr. Armstrong. Oh, yes; they had single tips—I always have. Certain customers come in lots of times and give me $6 or $8 and sometimes $10.

Mr. Hubert. Well, would you say that $10 was the highest?

Mr. Armstrong. Ten was about the highest.

Mr. Hubert. You haven’t received by way of tips any sum, say, more than about $10?

Mr. Armstrong. Well, that was 1963 or 1962?

Mr. Hubert. No, I’m not talking about that far back.

Mr. Armstrong. No—you mean after the assassination?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Armstrong. No.

Mr. Hubert. I understand you to say you are having a hard time now, is that right?

Mr. Armstrong. Very hard.

Mr. Hubert. You have no money saved?

Mr. Armstrong. There was—it’s gone, you know, a few bucks that I had saved. In fact, I have been paying bills.

Mr. Hubert. How much was that money?

Mr. Armstrong. That I had saved?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Armstrong. Well, it amount to about a couple of hundred dollars, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. You had it in cash?