TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.

Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.

The general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.

Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.

When was this subpena served upon you?

Mr. Crafard. Last Saturday.

Mr. Hubert. I think that would have been the 4th.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. The 4th of April.

Would you rise and be sworn, please?

Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Crafard. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Crafard. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.

Mr. Hubert. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?

Mr. Crafard. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. How old are you?

Mr. Crafard. 23.

Mr. Hubert. When precisely were you born?

Mr. Crafard. March 10, 1941.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation?

Mr. Crafard. At the present time I am unemployed.

Mr. Hubert. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.

Mr. Crafard. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?

Mr. Crafard. No objection whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?

Mr. Crafard. Unless it is of some use to you.

Mr. Hubert. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don’t want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don’t want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.

Mr. Crafard. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?

Mr. Crafard. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.

Mr. Hubert. Are they still living?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Are they living together?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Where do they live?

Mr. Crafard. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any brothers or sisters?

Mr. Crafard. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Crafard. Edward D. Crafard.

Mr. Hubert. Is he married?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Does he have children?

Mr. Crafard. Two.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t have any other address for him than that which you have given us?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know what organization in the Army?

Mr. Crafard. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft.

I have three sisters.

Mr. Hubert. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?

Mr. Crafard. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.

Mr. Hubert. To whom?

Mr. Crafard. [Deleted].

Mr. Hubert. Where does she live?

Mr. Crafard. She is residing in Clare, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. Are they living together?

Mr. Crafard. He is in the “pen” right now.

Mr. Hubert. Penitentiary?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Which one?

Mr. Crafard. New Ionia State Penitentiary.

Mr. Hubert. What State is that in?

Mr. Crafard. Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.

Mr. Hubert. How long has he been in the penitentiary?

Mr. Crafard. About 7 months, I believe, now.

Mr. Hubert. What term is he serving?

Mr. Crafard. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Go on to the next sister.

Mr. Crafard. Norma Lee Crafard.

Mr. Hubert. Who is she married to?

Mr. Crafard. Owen Neal.

Mr. Hubert. N-e-a-l?

Mr. Crafard. N-e-a-l.

Mr. Hubert. Where do they live?

Mr. Crafard. Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Do they live together?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do they have children?

Mr. Crafard. They have two children.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What is——

Mr. Crafard. Alice LaLaine Crafard.

Mr. Hubert. What is her husband’s name?

Mr. Crafard. She is not married. She lives with my parents.

Mr. Hubert. How old is she?

Mr. Crafard. She is 17.

Mr. Hubert. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?

Mr. Crafard. I have one brother that died.

Mr. Hubert. What was his name?

Mr. Crafard. Gary Harold Crafard.

Mr. Hubert. How old was he when he died?

Mr. Crafard. Nine years old.

Mr. Hubert. When did he die?

Mr. Crafard. 1954, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?

Mr. Crafard. Farwell, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there after your birth?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.

Mr. Hubert. After those 4 years where did you go?

Mr. Crafard. Went to California.

Mr. Hubert. What part?

Mr. Crafard. San Joaquin Valley.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. Approximately 6 years.

Mr. Hubert. That is until you were about 10 years old?

Mr. Crafard. Ten years old.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to school there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How much schooling did you finish there?

Mr. Crafard. First four grades.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?

Mr. Crafard. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.

Mr. Hubert. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?

Mr. Crafard. We moved back to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. What place, in Michigan?

Mr. Crafard. Clare.

Mr. Hubert. C-l-a-i-r-e?

Mr. Crafard. C-l-a-r-e.

Mr. Hubert. That is when you were 10 years old?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember it?

Mr. Crafard. I can remember going back; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Crafard. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to school there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened?

Mr. Crafard. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?

Mr. Crafard. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.

Mr. Hubert. Same place as before?

Mr. Crafard. No; we moved to a little place called Plainview where I attended school for a year, Stratmore High School and from there we went to Oregon. I dropped out of school and enlisted in the U.S. Army, September 18, 1958.

Mr. Hubert. Now, do I understand you to say then that you had 3 years of high school education?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was that—were those satisfactory years?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I mean you have credit for those?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You lack 1 year to graduate?

Mr. Crafard. I lack about 6 months of finishing high school.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you enlist?

Mr. Crafard. I enlisted in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. And what assignments were you given?

Mr. Crafard. I enlisted in the antiaircraft.

Mr. Hubert. That is U.S. Army?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you get basic training?

Mr. Crafard. Fort Ord.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. I was in Fort Ord for 2 months and then I went to Presidio, San Francisco, where I was stationed at an air defense school for a period of 2 months and then I was assigned to D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.

From there I went to Germany in April of 1959. I was transferred to Germany to Deisley Kersne, and I was stationed with the D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion there. I stayed there until November of 1959 then I was transferred back to the United States where I was discharged November 10, 1959.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you serve altogether?

Mr. Crafard. Thirteen months.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the usual tour?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.

Mr. Hubert. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.

Mr. Hubert. What was it based upon, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. General, under honorable conditions.

Mr. Hubert. You have a discharge reading general, under honorable conditions and you are now taking from your pocket a document which is a photostatic copy, I take it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; DD214.

Mr. Hubert. Of Defense Department Form 14.

Mr. Crafard. 214.

Mr. Hubert. 214. May I have a look at it?

Do you have any objection, Mr. Crafard if we have a photostatic copy of this document that you have just shown me?

Mr. Crafard. No objection.

Mr. Hubert. So that it can be part of the record and we will give you back the original.

Mr. Crafard. No objection.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what was the place of your discharge from the Army in the United States?

Mr. Crafard. Fort Sheridan, Ill.

Mr. Hubert. When you were discharged, where did you go?

Mr. Crafard. I went to Kalkaska, Mich., where I resided with my brother-in-law and my sister.

Mr. Hubert. Which one was that?

Mr. Crafard. At the present time it is Mrs. Ingersol. At that time it was Mrs. Richard Clair Tenniswood.

Mr. Hubert. She had been married twice then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, then we had better get that information about her. Who was her first husband?

Mr. Crafard. Richard Clair Tenniswood. She had two children, two girls by him.

Mr. Hubert. How was that marriage dissolved?

Mr. Crafard. By divorce.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the grounds?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure of the grounds, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did she divorce him or did he divorce her?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she divorced him. I am not positive about that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I knew him very well.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he is?

Mr. Crafard. He lives at Port Huron, Mich., just out of Port Huron, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. What business is he in?

Mr. Crafard. Farmer.

Mr. Hubert. Has he remarried?

Mr. Crafard. He plans to remarry this summer.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen him recently?

Mr. Crafard. Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago. A little over that.

Mr. Hubert. About how long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed there for about, let’s see, I stayed there until the following spring, in April.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been April of 1960?

Mr. Crafard. April of 1960. Then I went back out home to Oregon.

Mr. Hubert. When you left the U.S. Army, did you have any money?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. When you left the U.S. Army did you have any money?

Mr. Crafard. Just what I got from my discharge pay.

Mr. Hubert. How much was that?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I had right around $400 all together.

Mr. Hubert. Is that all you had?

Mr. Crafard. That is all I had; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I mean is that all the property you had of any sort whatsoever?

Mr. Crafard. I had a few items of personal clothing.

Mr. Hubert. I mean you had no items such as rings or jewelry or things of that kind?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I never wear jewelry, rings.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have an automobile?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t own any real estate, I take it?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have any cash but what you said?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Would it be correct to estimate that your total worth other than the cash you just mentioned at that time was less than a hundred dollars?

Mr. Crafard. I would say so; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how long did you stay with your sister?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed with them for about 6 or 7 months.

Mr. Hubert. Did you work?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. In the pulpwoods.

Mr. Hubert. What does that mean?

Mr. Crafard. We were cutting pulpwood.

Mr. Hubert. What did that pay?

Mr. Crafard. It was piece work. We was making about $8 a cord.

Mr. Hubert. About how much would that amount to a month?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, man.

Mr. Hubert. Just an estimate?

Mr. Crafard. Probably right around $400.

Mr. Hubert. That would be net before taxes, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you assist your sister financially for board and so forth?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; we was working together, my brother-in-law and I.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean was were you able to save any money?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t save any money there.

Mr. Hubert. You did not. You stayed there about 7 months?

Mr. Crafard. About 7 months.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go then?

Mr. Crafard. Then I went back out home.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say where?

Mr. Crafard. To Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. At the time you made the move then from the home of your sister to Dallas, Oreg., how much money did you have then?

Mr. Crafard. About $150, enough to go out there.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that you had spent all the money you had earned by working plus a good part of the savings or the money you had received from the Army?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So that upon arrival at your parent’s home in Dallas, Oreg., you had approximately $150.

Mr. Crafard. I was almost broke when I arrived home.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any other type of property?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Can you fix the time of your arrival back in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. It would have been in March of 1960.

Mr. Hubert. All right. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. My main residence then up until this last fall has been Dallas, Oreg. I have done a lot of traveling around.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do to support yourself from the time you returned to your parents in March 1960?

Mr. Crafard. I went to work in the fruit——

Mr. Hubert. In the fruit what?

Mr. Crafard. In the fruit, picking fruit. Then I went to work in a cannery. Then I was gone for a while and I worked with the carnivals when I was gone.

Mr. Hubert. I think we had better get some details about that. How long did you work with the fruit industry?

Mr. Crafard. Probably right around a month.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been in the spring of 1960?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then you went to the cannery?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you work there?

Mr. Crafard. I worked there for about 6 months.

Mr. Hubert. What did you make there?

Mr. Crafard. I was making a $1.15 an hour.

Mr. Hubert. What did it net you before taxes by the month about?

Mr. Crafard. I would say probably right around $400 for the month.

Mr. Hubert. When did you leave your parent’s home?

Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t give you an exact date on this, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, would it be fair to say it was about 7 months after you arrived there from Michigan?

Mr. Crafard. It was in the spring of 1961. I believe, probably in April of 1961.

Mr. Hubert. So that in fact you were with your parents after you moved from Michigan to Dallas, Oreg., for approximately 1 year?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Of which time you say you worked about 7 months?

Mr. Crafard. I went to school for about 6 months out of it, about 5 or 6 months out of the year, I attended high school.

Mr. Hubert. Did you finish?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What high school was that?

Mr. Crafard. Dallas High.

Mr. Hubert. Oregon?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You were not earning anything then?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I take it that you left Dallas, Oreg., about April in 1961, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go next?

Mr. Crafard. I went to California where I joined the carnival.

Mr. Hubert. What part of California?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, in Oroville, Calif., where I joined the carnival.

Mr. Hubert. Oroville?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What carnival was it?

Mr. Crafard. Royal West Golden Gate combined.

Mr. Hubert. Royal West Golden Gate combined?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What type of carnival was it?

Mr. Crafard. It was more or less about the general run of the mill for a carnival. Mostly rides.

Mr. Hubert. When you say “carnival” you are talking about a place where they have these rides for children and so forth?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How big a carnival was it, I mean, how many people were involved?

Mr. Crafard. It is pretty hard to say exactly.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do with it?

Mr. Crafard. I was working with the circus that was attached to the carnival.

Mr. Hubert. Animal circus?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. They all traveled as a group?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you with that, in that sort of a group?

Mr. Crafard. I worked that for about 3 or 4 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. That is all, 3 or 4 weeks?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right, where did you go to next?

Mr. Crafard. I traveled through Georgia where I joined another carnival in Georgia, Jerry Lepke Ten in One.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of a side show was it?

Mr. Crafard. He had the sword box, ladder of swords, fire eater, two-headed baby show, and a snake girl show.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do at that carnival?

Mr. Crafard. Roustabout and barker.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you with them?

Mr. Crafard. I was with Lepke for about a week.

Mr. Hubert. All right. After that?

Mr. Crafard. Then I went to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. I visited with my sister and my brother-in-law again for a little while for about 2 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. Which one?

Mr. Crafard. Tenniswood. Then I went to Detroit where I joined a kiddyland setup.

Mr. Hubert. That is sort of a carnival strictly for children?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; parking lot carnival.

Mr. Hubert. About what time was that then?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was in the fall of 1961.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with that organization?

Mr. Crafard. I was with him for about 2 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. Then what did you do?

Mr. Crafard. I went back to Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. When you got to Dallas what did you do? Oregon, I mean.

Mr. Crafard. I went to work part time at the Muir and McDonald Leather Tannery and then I went to work for Boise Cascade Valzets Division for the Boise Cascade Plywood. I worked for them until in June of 1962, June 10th, 1962.

Mr. Hubert. How long then did you work for them?

Mr. Crafard. For about 6 months, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. What were you making there?

Mr. Crafard. I was making, I believe, $2.25 an hour.

Mr. Hubert. About what did it amount to by the month before taxes?

Mr. Crafard. About $400, $450.

Mr. Hubert. You were not married at this time?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you able to save money?

Mr. Crafard. I was spending my money just about as fast as I made it. I was traveling, paying for transportation back and forth to work, buying clothes. By that time I had bought a motorcycle or a motorbike, and I bought a few items, I bought a refrigerator for my mother or a dryer for my mother at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Now, we have some information that you worked for Federal Aviation Agency through July and October of 1960 in Los Angeles?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; in Los Angeles—I believe they were out of Los Angeles, where I worked for them that was over in Nevada.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work did you do?

Mr. Crafard. Surveyor’s assistant. I had forgotten I had worked for them.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us anything about your employment with Stewart-Hill in Berkeley, Calif., 1052 Dwight Way, Berkeley, Calif?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember even.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been between July and September of 1960?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember working for the Teer Plating Co., Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about it, please.

Mr. Crafard. I believe I worked for them 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. How much did you make with them?

Mr. Crafard. I was making a dollar and a quarter an hour while I worked for them. I believe when I left there my last check was either $65 or $85.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the first time you had ever been in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I believe it was, I am not certain of that.

Mr. Hubert. That was between April and June of 1961, was it not?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so. The way I have traveled around, I had a lot of jobs I even forgot about almost.

Mr. Hubert. What was this Muir Co. you were talking about?

Mr. Crafard. It was a leather tannery.

Mr. Hubert. In Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Muir McDonald?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. At 111 Street. Is that Dallas, Tex., or Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. You worked for them for about almost year, with a couple of time outs, didn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. Altogether I worked for them about 18 months. But including the time I worked part time and I worked part time for them for a while while I was working for J. C. Tracy.

Mr. Hubert. What was J. C. Tracy?

Mr. Crafard. That is a cannery in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. So that during one period you were working two jobs—with Muir McDonald and with J. C. Tracy?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I worked for Muir and McDonald an hour and a half, 2 hours, maybe 3 hours a week.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever work for Ablon Poultry Co.?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that was after I was married.

Mr. Hubert. That was where?

Mr. Crafard. In Dallas, Tex. At that time I was residing at the Letot Trailer Park with my wife and family.

Mr. Hubert. When did you leave Dallas, Oreg., then?

Mr. Crafard. When I went to work there, you mean?

Mr. Hubert. You had gone to Dallas, Oreg., I think it was in the spring of 1961, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there really about 18 months, right, working for Muir McDonald?

Mr. Crafard. All together.

Mr. Hubert. When you left Dallas, Oreg., you were not married, were you?

Mr. Crafard. The last time I left Dallas——

Mr. Hubert. No; I am talking about the time you left in the latter part of 1962 or early 1963.

Mr. Crafard. I was married June of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. So your wife lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. For about 6 months we was living in Dallas, Oreg., from June 10 until I believe in December.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you married?

Mr. Crafard. I was married in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Where was your wife from?

Mr. Crafard. Originally from Texas.

Mr. Hubert. What was her name?

Mr. Crafard. Her maiden name was Wilma Jean Case.

Mr. Hubert. C-a-s-e?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had she been married before?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was her husband’s name?

Mr. Crafard. Donald Johnson.

Mr. Hubert. How many times was she married before she married you?

Mr. Crafard. Just the one time.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you meet her?

Mr. Crafard. I met her in Amarillo, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. When? How long before you married?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was in 1961.

Mr. Hubert. What part of 1961?

Mr. Crafard. In the spring, I believe, it would have been in March of 1961.

Mr. Hubert. You knew her about 15 months then before you got married?

Mr. Crafard. All told; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working in Dallas at the time you met her?

Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t employed at the time I met my wife.

Mr. Hubert. How did you meet her?

Mr. Crafard. I met her at the Salvation Army in Amarillo, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What was she doing?

Mr. Crafard. She was there with her husband Donald Johnson at that time.

Mr. Hubert. She was living with him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When was she divorced from her husband?

Mr. Crafard. She was divorced in 1962, I believe, in April, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. All the time you were living up in Oregon with your parents, did you see her or correspond with her?

Mr. Crafard. No; I hadn’t saw her for a year.

Mr. Hubert. You had not seen her for a year when you married her?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I had—I went to Dallas, Tex., trying to find her. From Dallas, Tex., I went to Las Vegas, Nev., where I got in touch with her and where we corresponded for a period of about 5 months.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you say that your interest in her as a person to be your wife grew up during this period?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And she agreed to marry you and came up to Dallas, Oreg., to do so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did she work while you were living in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; she lived with my parents.

Mr. Hubert. And so did you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have any children?

Mr. Crafard. I have one child by her. She has a stepson, I have a stepson, her son.

Mr. Hubert. She had a son by the first marriage?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What is that son’s name?

Mr. Crafard. Don Johnson, Billy Don Johnson.

Mr. Hubert. How old is he?

Mr. Crafard. He is 2 years old approximately.

Mr. Hubert. He is 2 years old now?

Mr. Crafard. He was 2 years old in December. He will be 2½.

Mr. Hubert. And you have a child by her?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; Robert Johnson.

Mr. Hubert. When was that child born?

Mr. Crafard. He was born March 10, 1963—March 2, excuse me.

Mr. Hubert. When did you move to Dallas, Tex.—let’s take it chronologically. What happened after you left, where did you go after you left Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. I went to California, I left Dallas, Oreg., the first day of March 1963. I went to California where I spent the month, spent about 3 or 4 weeks, then I went to Dallas, Tex., where my wife was living. We had a reconciliation.

Mr. Hubert. Before you tell us about the reconciliation, you had better tell us about the breakup because I don’t think that is in the record yet.

Mr. Crafard. We—she had left me about 6 months after we married, and I stayed in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. So she left you about December 1962?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, Oreg., for about 6 months after that.

Mr. Hubert. She was pregnant then, was she not?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, as far as I know; yes.

Mr. Hubert. The child was born in March of 1963.

Mr. Crafard. Well, I will tell you the truth, the doctor has some doubts himself so I couldn’t say.

Mr. Hubert. I mean she was pregnant when she left is what I mean in December. I think we are thinking about two different things.

Mr. Crafard. No. I believe we are thinking about the same thing.

Mr. Hubert. I am not asking you whether she was pregnant when you married her.

Mr. Crafard. No; I know that.

Mr. Hubert. I am asking you whether she was pregnant when she left you in December of 1962, because you have just told us that the child was born in March of 1963.

Mr. Crafard. I will put it this way. When the doctor was informed she had a child, her doctor was then informed she had a child, he was very shocked and surprised that she had had a child, and she was his patient in May of 1962. He operated on her in May of 1962. So in other words, there is some doubt as to the fact that the child was mine and actually there is a little doubt as to the child is actually hers.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I wish you would explain that latter part. How can there be some doubt that the child is hers?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t really understand it entirely myself. But the doctor that performed the operation when he was informed she had had the child he was very shocked and very surprised that she had had a child. He wouldn’t say any reason for being so but he was. But I took him—I had understood from him that she wouldn’t be able to have a child for about 2 years after the operation.

Mr. Hubert. What was the cause of your breakup?

Mr. Crafard. That, I do not know.

Mr. Hubert. You mean she just left?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did she leave any notes or anything?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t leave anything. I went to work on Tuesday morning and come home Tuesday and she was gone.

Mr. Hubert. With her child?

Mr. Crafard. With the boy; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you attempt to find her?

Mr. Crafard. I put a tracer on her.

Mr. Hubert. Well now, when you say you put a tracer, what do you mean?

Mr. Crafard. I had the law put a tracer out on her.

Mr. Hubert. As a missing person?

Mr. Crafard. As a missing person; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get any reports?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. When did you next see her or hear from her?

Mr. Crafard. I heard from her in February of 1963. The latter part.

Mr. Hubert. In what way?

Mr. Crafard. She wrote to me and told me that she was going to have the baby, and then in March of 1963 I received a letter in California, my folks had sent down to me, from her saying that she had had the baby and would love for me to come see the baby if I wanted to. And I went to Dallas, Tex. And we had a reconciliation.

Mr. Hubert. What date did you arrive in Dallas, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, right around the 14th, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. Of March?

Mr. Crafard. Of March.

Mr Hubert. Did you have any money then?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have any other kind of property?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; just a few clothes.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say you were, pretty broke?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Hubert. Where was she living?

Mr Crafard. She was at that time staying with her mother and father in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. At what location?

Mr. Crafard. At Letot Trailer Park.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell that?

Mr. Crafard. L-e-t-o-t.

Mr. Hubert. Where is that located?

Mr Crafard. On Lombardy Lane.

Mr. Hubert. Did you live with her then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do, get another trailer?

Mr. Crafard. For about a week I lived there with her and her parents. I went to work at the Ablon Poultry and her parents moved away and then for a while her brother and her sister-in-law lived with us; we lived together for a while.

Mr. Hubert. At Letot’s?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is their name?

Mr Crafard. It is John Case, Mr. and Mrs. John Case.

Mr. Hubert. Where do they live now?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea of their present address.

Mr. Hubert. When did you go to work in Dallas, Tex?

Mr. Crafard. About a week after I arrived there.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. At Ablon Poultry.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work were you doing there?

Mr. Crafard. I was working in the hanging racks, hanging chickens.

Mr. Hubert. How much were you making there?

Mr. Crafard. $1.10 an hour.

Mr. Hubert. How much did that amount to by the month?

Mr Crafard. Probably right around $200, $225, right around there; I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. You were still living with your wife then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What happened after that?

Mr. Crafard. I went to work at the Porter Building Co. in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. Where is that located?

Mr. Crafard. Harry Heinz Circle.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the outfit called the Valley Office and School Equipment Co?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you work for that company?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I did for a little while. It wasn’t very long.

Mr. Hubert. What about the Office Building Co. that you were talking about, how long did you work for them?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, I don’t even remember working for the company actually.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about the first one you mentioned yourself.

Mr. Crafard. The Porter Building Co.?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Crafard. I worked for them for about a month or a month and a half.

Mr. Hubert. After that who did you work for?

Mr. Crafard. We went to Washington, the State of Washington, to Mount Angeles or Port Angeles in the State of Washington.

Mr. Hubert. About when was that?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was in May or—it was in June, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. When you say “we” you mean you and your wife and your two children?

Mr. Crafard. And my two boys.

Mr. Hubert. How did you travel?

Mr. Crafard. We went up by bus.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been able to save any money then?

Mr. Crafard. I had money when we left there, I had been able to save some then. We stopped in California and I worked for a while 2 or 3 weeks in California.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you work?

Mr. Crafard. With a carnival. Then we went on up to Port Angeles, Wash.

Mr. Hubert. Port Angeles?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. We was there for about 6 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. Until what date?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the date.

Mr. Hubert. Well, it was the summer of 1963, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was your wife still with you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; we were together at that time.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What was your next move?

Mr. Crafard. The next thing happened she left me again.

Mr. Hubert. On what date was that?

Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t give you a date on that either.

Mr. Hubert. Well——

Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember the dates too well.

Mr. Hubert. Well, it was the summer time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; it was in the summer. I believe it was in the latter part of August or the middle of August, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Did she leave any note this time when she left?

Mr. Crafard. She left a note with some friends of ours in Port Angeles, Wash.

Mr. Hubert. What was the cause of her leaving, did she say?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t say.

Mr. Hubert. Did she leave any forwarding address?

Mr. Crafard. She had went to my brother’s in Los Angeles, Calif.

Mr. Hubert. Which brother was that, that is the one in the Army?

Mr. Crafard. Crafard, yes, sir; Edward D.

Mr. Hubert. How long did she stay with him?

Mr. Crafard. She was there about 2 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. Where did she go?

Mr. Crafard. He brought her up to my folk’s place, I went from Washington down to my folk’s place.

Mr. Hubert. That is Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. He brought her up to my folk’s there, in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have a reconciliation again?

Mr. Crafard. We tried a reconciliation. It didn’t work out.

Mr. Hubert. So what happened?

Mr. Crafard. So subsequently, about 3 weeks later, I left home, my folk’s place.

Mr. Hubert. You left her there?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. She had already gone?

Mr. Crafard. No; she was still there over at my folk’s place.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I mean, you left her there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I left her there.

Mr. Hubert. Judging by the time schedule you had mentioned that would have been around the middle of September, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I went to California. I went down on the coast and I worked for a Chinese man down there raising strawberries.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. I was there for about a week. And from there I went to Long Beach, Calif. I went to work on the new Playland down on Long Beach. I was there for about a month, I believe it was. Then I went to Barstow, Calif., where I went to work for produce out there.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of that outfit.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. I was with him for about 3 or 4 weeks, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. I take it that these jobs simply gave you enough money to live on and save up a little so you could move to the next place?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. All right. After that where did you go?

Mr. Crafard. I went to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. What place there?

Mr. Crafard. Fife Lake, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live there?

Mr. Crafard. I was there overnight. My sister and brother-in-law, Ingersol lived there, and——

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed with them?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed overnight there.

Mr. Hubert. Then where did you go?

Mr. Crafard. Then I went to—down into the southern part of Michigan, I joined another carnival down there.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of the carnival.

Mr. Crafard. Happyland Amusements.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the owner of it?

Mr. Crafard. I am just trying to think of the name. I can think of the first name but I can’t think of his last name.

Mr. Hubert. Suppose you give us that.

Mr. Crafard. His first name was Bob. There were two brothers owned it.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. Crafard. I was with them for about 3 weeks. We traveled from Michigan to Memphis, Tenn. We played the Memphis Fair.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in Memphis?

Mr. Crafard. We was there for 2 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. What was your next move?

Mr. Crafard. My next move was, while I was in Memphis I quit them and went to work for Leonard Wood who owned a trabant.

Mr. Hubert. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. It is one of the newest owned rides out, it is a German-made ride.

Mr. Hubert. Leonard Wood was his name?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that was in Memphis, Tenn.

Mr. Hubert. And you joined him really to move, is that right?

Mr. Crafard. No. I made the move with a friend of mine.

Mr. Hubert. I understood that you were working with the circus or carnival operated by a man named Bob and his brother?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you quit them to join Leonard Wood’s outfit.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it was better pay.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with Wood?

Mr. Crafard. I was with them for, I think it was the last 4 days of the fair, about 4 days.

Mr. Hubert. Then you quit him?

Mr. Crafard. Actually I got fired from him. There was a girl there that kept hanging around the ride and we couldn’t get rid of her and everybody tried to get rid of her. She thought she was in love with me or something.

Mr. Hubert. So Leonard Wood fired you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And what did you do next?

Mr. Crafard. I traveled to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. How did you travel?

Mr. Crafard. With a friend of mine, Mickey Spillane.

Mr. Hubert. Mickey who?

Mr. Crafard. Mickey Corday.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell the last name?

Mr. Crafard. C-o-r-d-a-y.

Mr. Hubert. How did you travel?

Mr. Crafard. Traveled down in his car.

Mr. Hubert. Where is he from, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know where his home is.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know him prior to this time?

Mr. Crafard. I had seen him prior to this time and heard of him prior to this time.

Mr. Hubert. I mean it wasn’t a hitchhike?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I met him at the fairgrounds in Dallas, Tex., or in Memphis.

Mr. Hubert. Did you drive straight to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. We drove straight to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. Now when you arrived in Dallas, what did you do?

Mr. Crafard. I went to work with an outfit “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup in the Dallas, Tex., State Fair.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that?

Mr. Crafard. Deke Miles and Bob Craven.

Mr. Hubert. Had you known them before?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What date was that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the date on that. It was the first day of the fair.

Mr. Hubert. It was the first day of what fair?

Mr. Crafard. The Dallas, Tex., State Fair.

Mr. Griffin. This was in the fall of 1963?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How much money did you make with them?

Mr. Crafard. I made $5 a day.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed in the tent. I was night watchman in the tent. They had a lot of props and equipment in the tent.

Mr. Hubert. In the meantime what happened to your wife?

Mr. Crafard. I had no idea.

Mr. Hubert. To this day?

Mr. Crafard. To this day, I found out what had happened later but right now I have no idea where she is at.

Mr. Hubert. How long did she stay with your parents after you left?

Mr. Crafard. She was there with my parents for about 2 or 3 weeks and then she took a job babysitting. She stayed there for about a week and then she took sick I understand and was in the hospital for about 3 days. Was back with my parents for about a week and then they went to Dallas, Tex. She left the boys with my parents, was in Dallas, Tex., for 2 or 3 weeks, then she went back up home and picked the boys up and the last I had heard of she had went to Cuba, Mo., and left the boys with a woman there in Cuba, Mo., and was paying her to take care of the boys.

Mr. Hubert. How did you find out all this?

Mr. Crafard. This woman in Missouri wrote to my mother, that is how I found out she had been there and my mother told me what had happened when she was still with them.

Mr. Hubert. What is the last word you heard from your wife?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. What is the last time you heard anything about her?

Mr. Crafard. The last time I heard anything about her, had any news or had any knowledge of her whatsoever was about, on Saturday the 7th, March 7 of this year.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know where she is now?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Has she the children?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; she has got the children.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. I met Jack Ruby about the third day of the Dallas, Tex., State Fair, at the fairgrounds.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about how you met him.

Mr. Crafard. He was backing the—Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles, and he come out there to talk to them.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present when they spoke?

Mr. Crafard. I was out front when he come out there.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to know them or——

Mr. Crafard. He knew them. They were acquainted.

Mr. Hubert. They were acquainted?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You could tell that from the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, they just walked up to each other and shook hands and called each other by the first name.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the substance of the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly the conversation had to do with a twistboard exerciser that Ruby was trying to promote.

Mr. Hubert. Well, go ahead.

Mr. Crafard. And he was there for about a half, 45 minutes that evening, and it was 2 or 3 days later before I saw him again.

Mr. Hubert. Before you go on, would you tell us how long after you joined the fair did you first see this man Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. About 2 or 3 days, about 2 days after I joined the fair.

Mr. Hubert. That would be about 2 days after the fair opened.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And the second time you saw him was about 3 days after that?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so, yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was the occasion of seeing him the second time?

Mr. Crafard. He came out there to talk to Mr. Miles and Mr. Craven.

Mr. Hubert. Did you overhear that conversation?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what was the purpose of the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. I believe Mr. Miles—he had brought some props, a couple of prop chairs, some chairs used for props and a mirror used for a prop to be used.

Mr. Hubert. Jack Ruby brought that out to them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was his interest in this fair?

Mr. Crafard. I had no idea.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any financial interest?

Mr. Crafard. He had some financial interest there.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard. Mr. Craven had told me, we had been talking and he told me that Ruby had some financial interest in it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate what it was about, how much?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did Ruby put up money?

Mr. Crafard. From what I understood he had put up some money.

Mr. Hubert. How much?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear Mr. Craven or Mr. Miles talk about what percentage he might have in the interests of the project?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; whenever I was around Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles I was pretty busy working most of the time.

Mr. Hubert. And you lived in the tent all the time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any friends in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. There was a few people that I know there.

Mr. Hubert. Would you name them?

Mr. Crafard. Well, at that time there was as far as I knew my brother-in-law, John Case, lived in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. He still did?

Mr. Crafard. And there was a few members of the church my wife and I went to still in Dallas there.

Mr. Hubert. Who were they?

Mr. Crafard. Brother Lee Cooksey and Robert Roskydall I believe it is.

Mr. Hubert. Who else?

Mr. Crafard. And that was about the only ones I knew around there right then. I met some people during that fair.

Mr. Hubert. As to these people you have named, how close a relationship did you develop?

Mr. Crafard. Just church members together.

Mr. Hubert. What church was that?

Mr. Crafard. General Assembly and Church of the First Born.

Mr. Hubert. Where is it located?

Mr. Crafard. Out North Dallas is all I can give you.

Mr. Hubert. Was this State fair project called, “How Hollywood Makes Movies,” a success financially?

Mr. Crafard. No; it was an absolute failure.

Mr. Hubert. You mean people didn’t flock to it?

Mr. Crafard. We went bankrupt, they went broke.

Mr. Hubert. You mean they closed before the fair closed?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; it was only open for about a week. I had heard rumors to the effect that Mr. Craven had wrote a lot of bad checks to start with.

Mr. Hubert. Were you paid any salary by them?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly about all I got from them was expenses. It was supposed to be $5 a day but about all I got was my meals and cigarettes furnished.

Mr. Hubert. You got money from them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did it actually close its doors and stop operating before the fair closed?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; about a week, it only ran about a week.

Mr. Hubert. And the fair lasted how long?

Mr. Crafard. 2 weeks. When they left it was another outfit come in there with a dance band.

Mr. Hubert. When you say, “come in there,” you mean took over the space?

Mr. Crafard. Took over the space in the same tent.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stay with that outfit?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I stayed with that outfit.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of it?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe they even had a real name for it.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us some of the people who were connected with it.

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see. I can’t even—there was Big Jess, he was one of the big shots around the State fair there.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a musician?

Mr. Crafard. No; he owns two or three rides on the fair grounds, permanent rides on the Dallas Texas State Fair Grounds.

Mr. Hubert. How was he connected with the organization that took the place of the other one?

Mr. Crafard. He took up the lease, the rent on the tent, on the space, and had this other outfit come in.

Mr. Hubert. The other outfit I take it was a band?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; musical band.

Mr. Hubert. How many pieces were there?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I believe it was three- and four-piece band.

Mr. Hubert. How was it supposed to make money?

Mr. Crafard. Charged 50 cents to get in.

Mr. Hubert. You mean to listen to the music?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly listen to the music.

Mr. Hubert. What else?

Mr. Crafard. They had some couples on stage dancing.

Mr. Hubert. They had some what?

Mr. Crafard. They had some couples on stage dancing.

Mr. Hubert. You mean couples from the audience?

Mr. Crafard. At first and then they wouldn’t allow them to have couples on the stage from the audience any more so they hired a couple of dancers.

Mr. Hubert. Where did they hire them from?

Mr. Crafard. Girls around the fairgrounds.

Mr. Hubert. Did they get any from Ruby’s place?

Mr. Crafard. One of the girls came out from Ruby’s place.

Mr. Hubert. What was her name?

Mr. Crafard. Joy Dale.

Mr. Griffin. Dale?

Mr. Crafard. Dale. I don’t know her real name. Her first name was Joyce from what I understood.

Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize the name Joyce McDonald?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was her last name, yes.

Mr. Griffin. But her stage name was Joy, not Joyce?

Mr. Crafard. Joy Dale.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of a dance did she do?

Mr. Crafard. About all she done was worked out front. She would get out front and more than anything just stand around out there. She would come out originally to help this “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup. They used her as an attraction piece.

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby bring her out there then?

Mr. Crafard. I believe the first time she came out there I believe Jack brought her out there and introduced her to Miles and Craven.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack have any interest in the second organization?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no. Except that he knew the man who was managing the setup there.

Mr. Hubert. And you have given us his name, I think already.

Mr. Crafard. Dusty was the name of the guy who was managing it. He was another carnival, carnie. He was managing it, Jess was backing it but Dusty was managing it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know Dusty’s last name?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall it.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he live?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know—let’s see, I think his home was somewhere in Ohio.

Mr. Hubert. Did he stay with the organization until the end of it?

Mr. Crafard. He stayed with the organization until the law closed them down.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that.

Mr. Crafard. The stage dancers got, the last day they was getting, pretty wild.

Mr. Hubert. You mean the last day of the fair?

Mr. Crafard. No; the last day they was open. It was 2 or 3 days before the fair closed, they were getting pretty wild.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Crafard. With their dancing; it was getting real sexy.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t a striptease, was it?

Mr. Crafard. No; more than anything they were using the “Dirty Dog,” and it can be made so filthy that it will almost turn a person’s stomach if they do it right.

Mr. Hubert. Do they actually use dogs in this dance?

Mr. Crafard. No; it is a dance called, “The Dog,” but they have got what they call, “The Dirty Dog,” too.

Mr. Hubert. How many girls were involved in that?

Mr. Crafard. There were two girls and one guy.

Mr. Hubert. One of those girls was the girl called Joy Dale?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What was she doing at that time?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know Joy was just working at the club, Carousel Club at that time.

Mr. Hubert. She wasn’t connected with the show at the fair?

Mr. Crafard. She hadn’t been out there but about one time after the dance outfit took over.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the names of the girls on the stage?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember their names.

Mr. Hubert. Had they come from Jack Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard. They met them on the fairgrounds. They put an ad and the girls contacted them.

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby come around to that second thing?

Mr. Crafard. He was around a couple of times.

Mr. Hubert. A couple of times?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he stay very long?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I could notice.

Mr. Hubert. Who was he with?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly by himself when he came out there.

Mr. Hubert. How did you get to know him?

Mr. Crafard. Well, just a couple of times talking to him around the fairgrounds there and he gave me a free pass into his club any time I wanted to go in.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go in?

Mr. Crafard. Not until after the fair closed when I went to work for Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. How much money did you make at the fair altogether?

Mr. Crafard. Altogether at the fair all I made was expenses.

Mr. Hubert. As I understood you had very little when you got there.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. So that when the fair closed you were just about flat broke.

Mr. Crafard. I was flat broke.

Mr. Hubert. What happened after the fair closed?

Mr. Crafard. Ruby hired me then to tear some lumber down, a stage he had had there at the tent. He brought the lumber out of it and he had me tear that down and clean it up.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, the thing had been closed for 2 days before the fair closed itself?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And I don’t suppose it reopened in any other fashion?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How long did it take you to do the job that Ruby hired you for?

Mr. Crafard. About 4 hours all told.

Mr. Hubert. And this stuff was moved?

Mr. Crafard. Moved to the Carousel Club, downstairs in the Carousel Club where it was stored.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything to do with the moving?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; helped move the lumber and clean it up.

Mr. Hubert. Then your original employment by Ruby was for that job alone?

Mr. Crafard. When he hired me he said he had that for me that I could do and then he said I could stay, he wanted me to stay at the club that night, and the next day he talked to me and he had me stay with him.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about your arrangement with Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly, there was no set salary, any time I needed salary I put a draw slip in the till and take it out of the till.

Mr. Hubert. What were you supposed to do?

Mr. Crafard. Help clean the club up, work the lights on the girls on stage, answer the phone calls, answer the phone when he wasn’t there. Work on the bar if they needed me or anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you did almost anything you were asked to do?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live at that time?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed at the Carousel Club.

Mr. Hubert. What accommodations did they have for sleeping and so on?

Mr. Crafard. We had a room with a cot in it.

Mr. Hubert. Whose room was it?

Mr. Crafard. It had been at one time a dressing room for one of the stars he had in there, Jada, a stripper by the name of Jada.

Mr. Hubert. Was she there when you first went there?

Mr. Crafard. When I first went there; yes. At that time I slept in Jack’s office.

Mr. Hubert. Then when you first went to the Carousel you slept in Jack’s office?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was there a cot there, too?

Mr. Crafard. He had a couch in his office.

Mr. Hubert. When you first went there it was the day the fair closed or the day after?

Mr. Crafard. The day after the fair closed.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the date of that?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember the date.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay—strike that.

How long did you sleep in Jack’s office?

Mr. Crafard. For about a week.

Mr. Hubert. And then you moved into Jada’s room?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Or dressing room, that is after she had gone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, after she had gone.

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there until you left finally?

Mr. Crafard. I left the 23d of November, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. What were your hours there?

Mr. Crafard. Any hours. I would just get up, I usually got up about 8 o’clock in the morning and I would be lucky if I would get to bed before 3:30, 4 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. How come you would get up so early?

Mr. Crafard. Get the club cleaned up.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t there a man to help?

Mr. Crafard. I took care of that mostly myself.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that stuff?

Mr. Crafard. Howard was a maintenance man.

Mr. Hubert. What did he do?

Mr. Crafard. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t do the actual janitorial work?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?

Mr. Crafard. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his assistant manager.

Mr. Hubert. Is that Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.

Mr. Hubert. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?

Mr. Crafard. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the morning the club closed.

Mr. Hubert. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. Then you went to bed?

Mr. Crafard. Then I went to bed.

Mr. Hubert. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?

Mr. Crafard. If I started cleaning up at 9 o’clock I would be finished by 11:30.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you had 2½ hours?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you then usually free?

Mr. Crafard. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3 hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.

Mr. Hubert. The club wasn’t open then, was it?

Mr. Crafard. No, the club didn’t open until 7:30 at night.

Mr. Hubert. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and that took 2½ or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. Crafard. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore catercornered across the street.

Mr. Hubert. And you say you just took some money out of the cash register for that purpose?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack permit you to do that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn’t have done so.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How much did it amount to?

Mr. Crafard. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with my cigarettes and what I ate.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?

Mr. Crafard. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about 3 o’clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was around the club.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after your cleanup job was over?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.

Mr. Hubert. Were there many phone calls to be answered?

Mr. Crafard. There was quite a few that would come in—generally, usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o’clock for reservations.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could handle the phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a reservation.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have to make notations about it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.

Mr. Hubert. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had called?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you were to do?

Mr. Crafard. Not unless it was—a couple of times he told me to feed the dogs or something like that—when he would call in, he would ask me if I fed the dogs.

Mr. Hubert. Where were they kept?

Mr. Crafard. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a storeroom.

Mr. Hubert. How many were there?

Mr. Crafard. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.

Mr. Hubert. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that change during the time you were there?

Mr. Crafard. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate and food and everything for the dog—to ship it.

Mr. Hubert. For a period then there were three dogs there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that dog ever shipped to California?

Mr. Crafard. Not while I was there; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the man’s name was who the dog was to be shipped to in California?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what place in California?

Mr. Crafard. Los Angeles, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. You had to check that to get the rates?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?

Mr. Crafard. Not as far as I—I am not positive I had seen him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?

Mr. Crafard. There was a couple of friends of Jack’s there from California while I was there and it might have been one of them.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know their names?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember their names.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when they were at Jack’s place?

Mr. Crafard. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week I was there with him.

Mr. Griffin. Were there—you say there were a couple of fellows?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Two or three or how many?

Mr. Crafard. I think they come at different times, I believe there was one guy come in one time and then about a week—3 or 4 days later another guy.

Mr. Griffin. But they were both there together for a while?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who came?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I couldn’t even identify him if he was to stand in front of me.

Mr. Griffin. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?

Mr. Crafard. He wasn’t there too much during the day.

Mr. Griffin. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack’s, a house guest.

Mr. Griffin. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?

Mr. Crafard. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don’t remember his name.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Griffin. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?

Mr. Crafard. More likely I was, but I don’t recall him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?

Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t; I saw so many people around the club.

Mr. Griffin. The second man who came, how long did he stay?

Mr. Crafard. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a row that he was in the club with Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Did he come at night or during the day?

Mr. Crafard. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at night but I didn’t notice him if he was.

Mr. Griffin. What did you pick up that his business might have been there?

Mr. Crafard. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see Jack.

Mr. Hubert. You never heard them conversing?

Mr. Crafard. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a habit to step back where I couldn’t hear the conversation.

Mr. Hubert. Why did you do that?

Mr. Crafard. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so, since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can’t hear the conversation that is being held.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else anything about either of these two men?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory now?

Mr. Crafard. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those two men?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is that all?

Mr. Crafard. That is all I can think of causing the association.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a photographer at the club?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where that photographer was from?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any—how long was this photographer there?

Mr. Crafard. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.

Mr. Hubert. Was his name Eddie Rocco?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Griffin. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about from California or were these two men different, from California?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall; it might have been. He might have been from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen, fellows——

Mr. Hubert. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club. They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they were there.

Mr. Hubert. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?

Mr. Crafard. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone calls and then they would leave.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where they went?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Jack would go out with them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you notice how long they stayed?

Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t know how long they would stay with Jack. He might take off at 11 o’clock in the morning and wouldn’t be back all day.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with them?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall him doing so. He might have.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any recollection that having left with one of those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?

Mr. Crafard. I have no recollection of that either. He was—people would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or sometimes he would come back.

Mr. Hubert. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about these two men from California that makes their visits there still a part of your memory.

Mr. Crafard. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?

Mr. Crafard. Jack would usually call me in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. About what time?

Mr. Crafard. Anywhere from 8 o’clock on.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any other way of waking up?

Mr. Crafard. Not unless Andrew would come by.

Mr. Hubert. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so you might commence your work?

Mr. Crafard. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he got up.

Mr. Hubert. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?

Mr. Crafard. A couple of times Andy would call me.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How did you come to know him?

Mr. Crafard. Jack introduced me to him at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Was he there often?

Mr. Crafard. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I believe he was a business associate of Jack’s.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you find that out?

Mr. Crafard. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere, Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?

Mr. Crafard. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner all the time.

Mr. Hubert. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at random?

Mr. Crafard. No. Never knew when he was going to come.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that the man had some property interest in that club or some financial interest?

Mr. Crafard. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.

Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t know about what?

Mr. Crafard. No, I didn’t know about what.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack keep any books?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of books did he keep?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax, regular books, business books.

Mr. Hubert. You mean ledgers?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who made the entries in them?

Mr. Crafard. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do all his bookkeeping.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember who he was.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there during the day.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know his name?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. He asked for the books?

Mr. Crafard. Andy give him some papers.

Mr. Hubert. Papers or books?

Mr. Crafard. Some of the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books together?

Mr. Crafard. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and they would do talking. It was usually during when—during the evening when the club was in operation and I would be out front.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Eva Grant?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who is she?

Mr. Crafard. She was Jack Ruby’s sister.

Mr. Hubert. How did you come to meet her?

Mr. Crafard. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.

Mr. Hubert. How often did you see her?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I saw Eva about four times.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get to know her as a person?

Mr. Crafard. Not too well.

Mr. Hubert. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?

Mr. Crafard. Just for a few minutes at a time.

Mr. Hubert. Did she have any interest in Ruby’s affairs?

Mr. Crafard. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I know; no.

Mr. Hubert. Jack never told you that she did?

Mr. Crafard. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack’s as far as I knew.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall was she, how heavy was she?

Mr. Crafard. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135 pounds, stands probably right around 5′6″, I would say.

Mr. Griffin. So she is not a heavy woman?

Mr. Crafard. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real nice-looking woman.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know her age?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. Do you know her age?

Mr. Crafard. No, but I believe she is Jack’s older sister.

Mr. Hubert. How did you get that information, from Jack?

Mr. Crafard. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.

Mr. Hubert. You have been to the Vegas, haven’t you?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.

Mr. Hubert. You worked there?

Mr. Crafard. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.

Mr. Hubert. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How did you get that information?

Mr. Crafard. Jack said she was managing the club for him.

Mr. Hubert. Were you there when she was there?

Mr. Crafard. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who was he?

Mr. Crafard. He was a friend of Jack’s he was with Jack quite often.

Mr. Hubert. Well, how often?

Mr. Crafard. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times a week anyway.

Mr. Hubert. You mean when they would come in at night or in the afternoon this man Senator would be with him?

Mr. Crafard. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.

Mr. Hubert. Can you give us a description of him?

Mr. Crafard. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5′4″, 5′5″.

Mr. Hubert. A very short man?

Mr. Crafard. Fairly short. Wasn’t much taller than Jack. He probably would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.

Mr. Hubert. Fat or husky?

Mr. Crafard. Kind of on the fat side.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have a limp?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he did, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything else about the relationship between him and Jack?

Mr. Crafard. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. Were you ever at Jack’s apartment?

Mr. Crafard. I was over to Jack’s apartment on two different occasions.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see then any evidence that they were living together?

Mr. Crafard. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms and he told me that one bedroom was George’s room.

Mr. Hubert. Ruby told you that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see George at the apartment?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. You only went there twice?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there for a few minutes and then leave.

Mr. Hubert. And you never saw Senator at the club—at the apartment?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack’s affairs?

Mr Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did he work for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.

Mr. Hubert. What does working on the door mean?

Mr. Crafard. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the door.

Mr. Hubert. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?

Mr. Crafard. Bill DeMar was a comedian.

Mr. Hubert. Was he there when you were there?

Mr. Crafard. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.

Mr. Hubert. How long did he stay?

Mr. Crafard. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of a fellow was he?

Mr. Crafard. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life you can size these people up pretty well.

Mr. Crafard. I haven’t only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I have never been wrong in my life but once.

Mr. Hubert. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?

Mr. Crafard. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn’t strike me, I didn’t like him. I got along with him, I associated with him at the club but I wouldn’t want to associate with him as a close friend.

Mr. Hubert. What was there about him——

Mr. Crafard. He didn’t strike me just right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think he is a fake?

Mr. Crafard. Well, I think 90 percent of him was fake, I would say. He was a fairly decent comedian but his way was “Big me and little you. I am everything and nobody else is anything,” was the way he struck me.

Mr. Hubert. He was there about how long?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was there for about 2 weeks, I am not sure, between 2 and 3 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever get to converse with him?

Mr. Crafard. While he was there in the club I would speak with him, talk with him a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. There was never any trouble between you, was there?

Mr. Crafard. No, there was never any trouble between us. I say he was an easy-going person.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see Joyce McDonald around there, the girl you previously identified?

Mr. Crafard. Joy was working on the stage.

Mr. Hubert. What was she doing?

Mr. Crafard. She was a stripper.

Mr. Hubert. What was the relationship between her and Jack, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. That of boss and employee.

Mr. Hubert. You never observed anything else?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. She was with him a lot, though, personally?

Mr. Crafard. She would talk with him around the club that I could see. She would talk with Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t she go out to dinner with him?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. Hubert. Some time?

Mr. Crafard. She might have. I heard Jack make the remark at one time that he had been involved with every one of the girls that worked for him at one time.

Mr. Hubert. You heard him say that?

Mr. Crafard. He made the remark to me because of one of the waitresses worked for him was a real sweet-looking girl and she had a real wonderful personality.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that?

Mr. Crafard. Marge, that is the only name I know her by, I don’t know her last name.

Mr. Hubert. She was a stripper?

Mr. Crafard. She was a waitress.

Mr. Hubert. So what about Marge?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. What about Marge?

Mr. Crafard. I said something, going out with her or something and he made the statement that he had had a relationship with everyone of the girls who worked for him.

Mr. Hubert. When you say relationship or when he said it, you did understand him to refer to sexual relationship?

Mr. Crafard. Sexual relationship.

Mr. Hubert. There can be no doubt about that?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What did you infer from that remark of his relative to the remark you had made about your interest in Marge?

Mr. Crafard. Well, it would—my remark had been on the sexual basis.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did you regard that as sort of a consent on his part for you to go ahead?

Mr. Crafard. No. He didn’t want me to go, to have anything to do with any of the girls that worked for him.

Mr. Hubert. So that in effect he was telling you that he was the one who was to have the sexual relationships with the girls and not anyone else?

Mr. Crafard. That is about the effect of it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say it as clearly as that?

Mr. Crafard. No; he didn’t say it in so many words, but just an implied statement.

Mr. Hubert. That is the meaning you got out of that colloquy, is that right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us as best you can remember what the conversation was?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. I said something about I would like to get ahold of that or something, and Jack said, he said, he had already gotten into it or something like that, and something said about his girls, and I said so far as I am concerned—at that time it was a little later after I went to work for him—I said, “As far as I am concerned you haven’t got a stripper I am interested in,” and he said, “I have had a relationship with every one of them.”

Mr. Griffin. Did you think Jack was puffing on that or did you believe him?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. As far as the strippers went I can very well believe that but the waitresses it was pretty hard to believe because little Marge, she ended up marrying a guy, and she was pretty stiff on him, and in fact, so much that I have tried everything I could to get her even to go out with me and she wouldn’t do it. And the other girls didn’t seem too much to me like the type that would do so.

Mr. Hubert. You did have a girl you went out with you used to meet at the Eatwell?

Mr. Crafard. One of the girls who worked for Jack.

Mr. Griffin. What was her name?

Mr. Crafard. She went to work for him later, I can’t even remember her name now. The only one of the bunch I can remember, there were three girls there roomed together, the only one I can remember is Norma, and I first got acquainted with her was over the telephone and we had quite a conversation, and we became rather friendly over the telephone and when we met we was fairly friendly.

Mr. Hubert. Did she work for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. No; Jack tried to get her to work as a stripper which he would do with every female, every nice-looking girl, that he met. She would have nothing to do with it.

Mr. Hubert. So you had this conversation with her on the telephone? Did you get to meet her?

Mr. Crafard. I met her at the club; yes. I met her in person and then I got to know her fairly well. We was together several times.

Mr. Hubert. You mean on private dates?

Mr. Crafard. Well, it would be her and these other two girls. I was with the other girl mostly, and we would go over together and three of us sit together while we eat, and I would walk the girls home, something like that. They would come to the club and the club would close and I would walk this other girl home.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, there were two girls who worked for the club?

Mr. Crafard. No; only one worked for the club.

Mr. Hubert. Which one was that, it was not Norma?

Mr. Crafard. Norma——

Mr. Hubert. What was her name?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember that girl’s name. I can’t remember the girl’s name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away from the club.

Mr. Hubert. That was the one who was the waitress?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met Norma back at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Had Norma ever worked for the club?

Mr. Crafard. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was trying to get her to work as a stripper.

Mr. Griffin. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?

Mr. Crafard. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl went to work for Jack.

Mr. Griffin. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20 miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever go out there?

Mr. Crafard. No; I never went out there.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?

Mr. Crafard. She give me her address, address and phone number.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number which I do with all girls who come for a job.

Mr. Griffin. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?

Mr. Crafard. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store where to buy clothes.

Mr. Griffin. Jack bought her the clothes?

Mr. Crafard. He give me the money to buy the clothes.

Mr. Hubert. How much was the amount?

Mr. Crafard. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he bought clothes for the girl.

Mr. Griffin. Ten dollar bill?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. She couldn’t buy much with a $10 bill.

Mr. Crafard. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came to work for Paul?

Mr. Crafard. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something happened between them to where she wouldn’t have anything to do with Jack.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know what it was that happened?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea?

Mr. Crafard. I have an opinion; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us an idea?

Mr. Crafard. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got out of hand and she put a stop to it.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you to believe it?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.

Mr. Griffin. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some unusual kind of sexual relations?

Mr. Crafard. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.