TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED (continued 2)

Mrs. Paine. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.

Mr. Jenner. But you know of no other?

Mrs. Paine. I cannot think of any other.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?

Mrs. Paine. No; in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall that. $310 a month?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mrs. Paine. And he was definitely offered such a job?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I won't say it was offered—that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.

Mrs. Paine. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through—that there was not that possibility.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please relate that to me?

Mrs. Paine. I recall some reference to——

Mr. Jenner. How did it come about?

Mrs. Paine. From Lee, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. And was it at the time, or just right——

Mrs. Paine. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.

Mr. Jenner. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency—whether a public or private employment agency I don't know—but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.

Mr. Jenner. But that was——

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Of his report to you and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall his discussing it.

Mrs. Paine. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job itself.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."

(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)

It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed "Ruth."

Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. Did you prepare and transmit the original?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When did you do that?

Mrs. Paine. That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.

Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had forgotten.

Mr. Jenner. Having that——

Mrs. Paine. It sounds like a very valid description——

Mr. Jenner. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest—and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.

Mr. Jenner. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when?

Mrs. Paine. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.

Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision—I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically Russian—as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual—rather than a prompting from within.

Mr. Jenner. And when you use the expression—you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading—you mean a prompting from your—inner prompting.

Mrs. Paine. That's correct.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine—your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.

Mrs. Paine. I would think so.

Mr. Jenner. That that is your present recollection.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?

Mrs. Paine. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. About how many?

Mrs. Paine. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there was—a pocket dictionary.

Mr. Jenner. Was that an English-Russian, or just——

Mrs. Paine. Just English.

Mr. Jenner. Was that your dictionary or was it his?

Mrs. Paine. It was not mine.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know of any reason why—I will restate the question.

Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?

Mrs. Paine. I have no feeling of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?

Mrs. Paine. Except your question.

Mr. Jenner. Pardon?

Mrs. Paine. Except your question.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.

Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of—fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your home that you saw such a movie on television?

Mrs. Paine. I know I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at—late one evening—at a spy movie on television.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I think German World War II variety.

Mr. Jenner. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. That is my clear recollection.

Mr. Jenner. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.

Mrs. Paine. It certainly does.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident.

Mrs. Paine. Well, there is no recollection whatever.

Mr. Jenner. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.

Mrs. Paine. Of that sort of thing.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture—her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she mention the Manner Bakery?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.

Mr. Jenner. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum Co.?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that.

Mr. Jenner. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.

Mr. Jenner. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. Paine. I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked—he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to——

Mr. Jenner. Would that be a nontoll call?

Mrs. Paine. That was a toll call.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.

Mr. Jenner. Did he speak with you on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?

Mr. Jenner. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did come.

Mr. Jenner. And when did he come?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that he asked to come—that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he—and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.

My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.

Mr. Jenner. All right. And how long did he stay?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Did he visit with both you and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And were arrangements made for his return on another occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.

Mr. Jenner. And was this strictly a social call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Jenner. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.

Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I wish you would—how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it—all you knew about it up to and including November 22.

Mrs. Paine. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including November 22.

Mr. Jenner. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.

Mr. Jenner. This was after November 22?

Mrs. Paine. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small—that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.

I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only—Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word—that it said "This key"—using the word "key" rather than the Russian word—and went on to say it was for a post office box. And that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said——

Mr. Jenner. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that—I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.

We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze—this in Russian—saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.

Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.

I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.

Mr. Jenner. And some few small articles were purchased?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you arrived home when—about noon?

Mrs. Paine. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once.

Mr. Jenner. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did he look at television?

Mrs. Paine. My guess is that he certainly looked at television.

Mr. Jenner. Did you leave your home late that afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?

Mrs. Paine. No, we did not stop at a car dealers.

Mr. Jenner. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?

Mrs. Paine. I think he could not have been.

Mr. Jenner. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?

Mrs. Paine. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.

Mrs. Paine. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, please.

Mrs. Paine. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. That is Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City—I will add to that testimony here—I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.

Mr. Jenner. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And——

Mrs. Paine. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.

Mr. Jenner. You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it?

Mrs. Paine. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And that was out in the open.

Mrs. Paine. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?

Mrs. Paine. Two of them.

Mr. Jenner. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?

Mrs. Paine. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop.

Mr. Jenner. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At his quarters?

Mrs. Paine. No; I meant the place of work.

Mr. Jenner. At Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.

Mrs. Paine. That's my opinion.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.

Mrs. Paine. I was certainly not conscious of it.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., residing or staying as a guest in your home?

Mrs. Paine. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?

Mrs. Paine. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East—this was before I had plans to—definite plans to teach for the summer.

She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.

After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.

Mr. Jenner. And you so told her?

Mrs. Paine. And I told her so, after she had written a letter.

Mr. Jenner. And that letter of hers is in evidence?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this letter.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit 415?

Mrs. Paine. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful.

On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our appreciation.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I am very glad to be of help.

Mr. Jenner. We have no further questions as of this time.

Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.

Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.

Mrs. Paine. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.

Mrs. Paine. Monday morning. So realizing—while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.