TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV (continued 2)

Mr. Jenner. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?

Mr. Mamantov. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. By collecting clothing?

Mr. Mamantov. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on occasions?

Mr. Mamantov. That's right—assigning for certain families to keep for a couple of weeks or a week.

Mr. Jenner. That included Mrs. Meller?

Mr. Mamantov. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get this person——

Mr. Jenner. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. Mamantov. Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. Jenner. He tried to place her with whom—Mrs. Grolle?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her home.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we have no information that she did.

Mr. Mamantov. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or for 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. Mamantov. Elena Hall—how do you spell it?

Mr. Jenner. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].

Mr. Mamantov. No; the first name—Elena Hall?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.

Mr. Jenner. No, that's a different person.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.

Mr. Jenner. You mean one is the father and one is son?

Mr. Mamantov. One is father's name and one is son's name—that's correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call your name—if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it appears.

Mr. Jenner. What do they say in case—since my name and my father's name are the same?

Mr. Mamantov. The same—it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.

Mr. Mamantov. Right.

Mr. Jenner. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.

Mr. Mamantov. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.

Mr. Jenner. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?

Mr. Mamantov. Also a geologist.

Mr. Jenner. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?

Mr. Mamantov. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].

Mr. Jenner. What was his first name?

Mr. Mamantov. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].

Mr. Jenner. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?

Mr. Mamantov. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.

Mr. Jenner. How old a man is he?

Mr. Mamantov. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.

Mr. Jenner. He is a young man?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; he came to—he served in the Army.

Mr. Jenner. Do you—the United States Army?

Mr. Mamantov. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of the Russian language already.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't that correct?

Mr. Mamantov. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of 1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private lessons for both of them.

Mr. Jenner. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?

Mr. Mamantov. They came—right now, they came to my house. Not before—the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and willingness to teach individual students, so we split—I was tutoring Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.

Mr. Jenner. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to you about the Oswalds one night?

Mr. Mamantov. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit with us.

Mr. Jenner. Your home?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, and this was, I would say, sometime—March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Was Fredricksen present?

Mr. Mamantov. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian. Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with Oswald on political questions, because he understood.

Mr. Jenner. This was the report they made to you?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct.

Mr. Jenner. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. What are their names—do you remember a given name?

Mr. Mamantov. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the American occupation of Europe.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name—it isn't his original name.

Mr. Jenner. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?

Mr. Mamantov. It could be—he spelled it also with an "e", but that's originally his name.

Mr. Jenner. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?

Mr. Mamantov. Petroleum engineer—correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is he part Russian—part of the Russian emigre group here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mr. Mamantov. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been with Gregorys on a few occasions—I have been with the Clarks on few occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in the past—whom else—the same I know them very well personally but we didn't meet—we don't meet as a group any more.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please state what you have in mind?

Mr. Mamantov. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other—but knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her arrangement—how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet Union, because if I liked to get—if I would have liked to take some of my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and here, a young lady—20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out and—but I don't want to accuse her—maybe she's completely innocent. I know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything else you want to add?

Mr. Mamantov. No, not on this particular case, I think that's everything.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had a short talk with you before we began this deposition.

Mr. Mamantov. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. Mamantov. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?

Mr. Mamantov. No, I don't think it is.

Mr. Jenner. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to influence you in any statements you might have made?

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your deposition.

Mr. Mamantov. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov at this point.