TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED (continued 2)

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald attending that party?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.

Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I really do not remember anything significant.

Mr. Jenner. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you leave before the party was over?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall either. I think they possibly have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe, Everett brought them.

Mr. Jenner. Either that or Everett?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; somebody else might have.

Mr. Jenner. It was not your party?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; exactly.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in particular the former government in Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world, and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.

Mr. Jenner. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak Russian?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.

Mr. Jenner. That is all.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And it is amazing.

Mr. Jenner. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a conversational command of the language.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; not a refined Russian.

Mr. Jenner. He had trouble with his grammar?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between them or something?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the time.

But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante of Marina's, you see. I was not.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate, please?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you see.

Mr. Jenner. You made a comment that you just said your wife had confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Confidence from what point of view?

Mr. Jenner. I don't know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was fighting also. She would scratch him also.

Mr. Jenner. She would scratch him?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She would scratch him also.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the time?

I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, rather than mine.

There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Without being taken?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I have a recollection of that.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. When did it occur?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember when it occurred.

Mr. Jenner. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, but that was the period when we were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.

I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.

Mr. Jenner. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a friend of mine.

Mr. Jenner. What was his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor—he worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex Kleinlerer. That is the name.

Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.

Mr. Jenner. Max Clark.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.

Mr. Jenner. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It was a friendly visit to say how are you.

Mr. Jenner. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And come to the Halls?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which you took Marina?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken her to the Mellers?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to the Mellers.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to why Marina was there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.

Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that Marina should leave their place.

Mr. Jenner. Should leave the Halls?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming back or something like that, something to that effect.

Mr. Jenner. Her husband is returning?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; something to that effect.

Mr. Jenner. And did Marina leave?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is history for me, you see.

Mr. Jenner. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in your mind also.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which is what I am attempting to do.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. Hall—yes; I remember what we were talking about.

Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what happened.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is a fact.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any religious feeling?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I had a vague impression—I don't remember because I do not discuss religion too often—that she had religious beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have some sort of religious belief.

Mr. Jenner. What about Lee, on the other hand?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't believe in God?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly against religion as far as I remember.

Mr. Jenner. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Something vaguely goes on in my head.

Mr. Jenner. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.

Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty and freedom of the press?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think he understood the freedom of the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in individual freedoms.

Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't appreciate it. Not all of them.

Mr. Jenner. What about Marina and her politics?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life in the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Was she inclined to discuss politics?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics.

Mr. Jenner. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."

This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. That was another source of annoyance between them?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.

Mr. Jenner. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to read that he had written.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.

Mr. Jenner. Was it in the form of a diary?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for publication.

Mr. Jenner. Were they political in nature?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; not political in nature, but there was nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly written, not particularly well.

Mr. Jenner. Not good, not bad?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.

Mr. Jenner. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if it has the material he showed you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.

Mr. Jenner. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; that is not at all familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. The witness is now looking at page 232.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.

Mr. Jenner. You are now on page 235:

"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I would have remembered something like that, you see. Again another sentence I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Do you want me to glance through that? It does not look like the same document.

Mr. Jenner. If it is not the same document——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think it is the same document.

Mr. Jenner. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.

I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," "Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," "Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective Farms and Schools, Vacations."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have attracted my attention.

Mr. Jenner. All right, let's find that spot.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That looks familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me.

Mr. Jenner. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.

Mr. Jenner. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you had with him before his life in Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That looks familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. This whole division?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This whole division looks familiar to me. As I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar to me.

I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this and comrade that, you see?

But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions of life of a worker.

Mr. Jenner. It is horrible grammar.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Horrible grammar.

Mr. Jenner. And horrible spelling.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But it could be reworked by somebody?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Let's get to the next division here.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Here is something that I remember we discussed.

Mr. Jenner. You are now at page 262.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think here he talks about those meetings.

Mr. Jenner. That he did not like?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That he did not like.

Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very——

Mr. Jenner. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is the paper he showed you.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Here is something.

Mr. Jenner. I now direct your attention to page 269.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is something that is much more familiar to me because I was interested in the town itself.

Mr. Jenner. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its builders."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that was something that interested me because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just described them. What happened to this street and that street?

He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same paper I saw.

Mr. Jenner. But this seems to you more familiar?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention to the city than I paid to something else.

Mr. Jenner. This is quite a long diatribe.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It couldn't be the same document because that wasn't as long as that.

Mr. Jenner. It was not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have already identified, the first of which is at page 304.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is definitely not familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. And runs through page 309.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.

Mr. Jenner. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page 312. It is a short one.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; that doesn't look familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It does not look familiar to me. As I said before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his life.

Mr. Jenner. Were they typewritten or in longhand?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Typewritten.

Mr. Jenner. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance through those, please?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.

Mr. Jenner. And you had not seen it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the TV factory.

Mr. Jenner. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell her——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That she is ready for action?

Mr. Jenner. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be closer.

If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or find out where she is going to be.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)