TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. On the record.

Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back a minute to your father.

You left there about 1931 or 1932?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I came back many times.

Mr. Jenner. You came back to see him?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; almost every summer vacation.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what happened to your father, with particular reference to World War II?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to the United States at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that—this was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to America, and he did not take advantage of it.

Mr. Jenner. That invasion was in September of 1939.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1939; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you made these arrangements before September 1939?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into hiding.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the Russians invaded Poland?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other side?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So he then became engulfed by the Russians?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns.

Mr. Jenner. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Declare themselves that they they are willing to go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Declare allegiance to the German Government?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right—declare allegiance to the German Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life——

Mr. Jenner. Was your father still anti-Communist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist——exceedingly strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we know—some air raid hit that place where he lived.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what town it was?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go and see the place where he was buried.

Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters through some German friends who stayed there with him.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I take it he was—we can at least fairly say that he had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said, "George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war, but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free and nobody is bothering me."

It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have you back in New York City—this is when we went to lunch—around 1953—1952, 1953.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; still active. I think it was in 1952—because I was not married—we still had the partnership. I was visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him I met my next wife, my last wife.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, who was she?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Wynne Sharples.

Mr. Jenner. She at that time was a student?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was just graduating from the medical school at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29 years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see. And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about the Sharples family.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many years.

Mr. Jenner. What is his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler.

So we knew about each other before—my wife's father, and so on and so forth—and—the daughter asked his advice, whether she should marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all right—obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me. Butler was my best man at the wedding.

Mr. Jenner. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Sam Butler.

There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of ushers. So we got married.

Mr. Jenner. Was the Sharples family wealthy?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very wealthy.

Mr. Jenner. Socially prominent?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Socially prominent. But not too interested in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is interested——

Mr. Jenner. She has a nickname?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Didi.

Mr. Jenner. Some of the people apparently—voluntarily—they know her with that nickname—Didi.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. We got married, I think, after her graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.

Mr. Jenner. What is that—a suburb of Philadelphia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident physician——

Mr. Jenner. In what hospital?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the Baylor Hospital.

Mr. Jenner. Baylor University?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was it university connected?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor Hospital.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi.

Mr. Jenner. And Ed Hooker's wife was——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion. And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from such a prominent family.

Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me, "George, you are a fool to marry this girl—she is nuts."

She had had nervous breakdowns.

Mr. Jenner. This is Mr. Hooker's wife?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is very high strung—she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is interesting for you, all those details.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though—she came to Dallas with you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm outside of Dallas. And then she had—we had two children, Sergei, and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name.

Mr. Jenner. When were those children born?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. One year difference—in 1953 and 1954.

Mr. Jenner. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose, you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did that have an effect on your partnership?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife. He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it out and divided the proceeds.

Oh, yes—also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the oilfield—another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity, according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene.

Mr. Jenner. Why is that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, because we are more or less in the center of things than just in a small hick town, you see.

Mr. Jenner. You——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. At the same time about, when we were breaking this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we formed a partnership just about the same time.

Mr. Jenner. Have you identified this new man?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle—much younger than his—than her mother, but a man of substance, from Philadelphia—with whom we developed friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.—with the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker—that I would do the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the business in Philadelphia.

We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some time.

Mr. Jenner. What field?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Post field, in Texas—a small part of this field belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that.

But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together.

Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced——

Mr. Jenner. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were divorced?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And when did that take place?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We were married for 5 years.

Mr. Jenner. Well, it must have been 1957, then.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our children had cystic fibrosis—it is a terrible illness of genetic nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet.

Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary chairman.

Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did, because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It started with very little—we started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and we got $25,000.

Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960.

By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children. She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. She is with her mother?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. With her mother, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia, she is a trustee of Temple University.

But her husband, Dr. Denton——

Mr. Jenner. She remarried?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She remarried.

Mr. Jenner. What is his full name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with respect to some trust?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Trust fund.

Mr. Jenner. Established for whom?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund. She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side to the fact that I was removed away—that the children were very far away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my ex-wife and I—we inherited this trust fund.

Mr. Jenner. Which trust fund?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Established for Sergei, our son.

Mr. Jenner. Who established the trust fund?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr. Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the children's support—whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was a small trust fund of $24,000, which eventually was split up between my ex-wife and myself—about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you.

Mr. Jenner. No—I have the complaints. Your ex-wife—Dr. Denton lives in Philadelphia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she does research work, does she?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national foundation.

She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked to resign, or resigned herself—I don't know for sure—the other trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she is running this foundation as an administrator.

Mr. Jenner. Do you visit your child?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live with me, you see.

Mr. Jenner. The daughter?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just the opposite—that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation last year as to—I tried to take the custody away from her, because of various reasons—mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that—we went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is also under psychiatric treatment.

Mr. Jenner. Who is?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric treatment—because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, because they are healthy, and she is not.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that your former wife—there had been some children born of her present marriage?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; the suit was filed in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. She commenced it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you resist it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; we came to an agreement that we would get a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell our house and settle our accounts.

Mr. Jenner. Property?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story about that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did you remain in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the foreign end of this business.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean foreign end?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In 1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private—for some private individuals connected with Sinclair Oil Company.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In 1956—just before our divorce, I think. We were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.

Sorry—too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. Sharples, because—my ex-wife's father—I did some foreign work for him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign jobs—maybe jobs in Nigeria.

Mr. Jenner. I want to know what countries you were taken to in connection with those.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions—it was in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France—I may have forgotten with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some work right there in Dallas—examined the geological work and made suggestions.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And eventually——

Mr. Jenner. You did travel to Mexico?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; many, many times.

Mr. Jenner. In connection with that work.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In Cuba, too.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, in Cuba—I traveled in Cuba before Castro, during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development—a land development to promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his office—that type of job that I had from time to time.

Mr. Jenner. I want to get the countries now. Cuba——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana——

Mr. Jenner. These are your travels now?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That is where I actually went.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I want to know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France.

Mr. Jenner. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and development for what group?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. For No. 1—for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan Trust—that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Now—were there some other companies?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all consulting jobs for clients of mine—either from Texas or from New York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to a job in Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. That was for——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was for ICA—a job for ICA and for the Yugoslav Government.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what ICA is.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. International Cooperation Administration here in Washington—which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia and help them develop oil resources under the—I don't know—some kind of government deal. Under this——

Mr. Jenner. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—George Mitchell.

Mr. Jenner. And his wife?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist. In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.

Mr. Jenner. You were single at this time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he was married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was married.

Mr. Jenner. And his wife accompanied him?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She did; yes.

Mr. Jenner. This was for the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Washington 25, D.C.

The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA paid my salary.

Mr. Jenner. And you had a contract of some kind?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere around February of 1957, wasn't it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I left for Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 months, and I returned in October.

Mr. Jenner. 1957?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1957; yes. All the reports were made—quite a considerable number of reports were made in triplicates—some of them went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went to the Bureau of Mines here.

Mr. Jenner. That was nonsecurity work, was it not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking me—after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."

Mr. Jenner. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that correct?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a couple of weeks.

Mr. Jenner. She was not yet divorced at that time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a divorce.

Mr. Jenner. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she was living there, also?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was living there, also. And she had this separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel.

Mr. Jenner. Was her daughter with her at that time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think she was. She came over later.

Mr. Jenner. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; her daughter was living in California.

Mr. Jenner. What was the name of that town?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Where she lived in California?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Some canyon—Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you about that.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry her. A very charming fellow.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your present wife live with each other before you were married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I think you can remember this.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the name of God we were married, because I remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are married—in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it in the name of——

Mr. Jenner. You had a civil ceremony?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. After your wife had become divorced from her former husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon.

Mr. Jenner. Can you spell that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the States they used the name of Le Gon.

Mr. Jenner. When you and your wife married—by the way, her given name is Jeanne, is it not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And she had been living in France?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She had been—she was brought up by her aunt in Arizona, because her mother——

Mr. Jenner. And her aunt's name is what?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nancy Clark—and eventually she became Nancy Tilton III. Anyway——

Mr. Jenner. She lives where?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her husband, Mr. Clark.

Mr. Jenner. Her aunt's husband?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left her with—it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European way—that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt—my daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We call it an aunt—whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent practically all her childhood there.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.

Mr. Jenner. Did your former wife consent?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Which one?

Mr. Jenner. To the adoption?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the daughter.

I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away from her. We had a lawsuit—not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it—a custody case.

Mr. Jenner. Where was this, in Tucson?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, that was in Palm Beach—because Nancy took Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided that she should be with us.

Mr. Jenner. When was this?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was in 1956.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I mean either with me or with the mother—with the mother who became Mrs.—what a complication—Mrs. Brandel—my ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel. Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a television producer.

Mr. Jenner. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And myself—asked the judge to decide with whom our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not married. I could not offer her a home—although I wanted her to be with me.

And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France."

And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.

That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us.

Mr. Jenner. She did come to live with you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. After you were married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some time.

And, finally, she eloped from school——

Mr. Jenner. From what school?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Highland Park School.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.

Mr. Jenner. That was last September, was it not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, last September.

Mr. Jenner. And——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee Taylor.

Mr. Jenner. And who has custody of that child?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The boy has the custody.

Mr. Jenner. Gary Taylor?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.

Mr. Jenner. Gary has remarried, did you know that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out what is happening to the child.

Mr. Jenner. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs. Taylor?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, takes care of the little boy right now.

Mr. Jenner. Following that divorce, your daughter—what did she do?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She went to school, to Tucson, to study——

Mr. Jenner. What school is that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere in New York right now.

Mr. Jenner. Has she remarried?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch with her right now.

The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.

Mr. Jenner. How old is she now?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She will be 19 now.

Mr. Jenner. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I will get to that, then.

While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present wife's daughter.

What is her name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as my wife's.

Mr. Jenner. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon—middle name Elinor.

My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but that is beside the point.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She changed her name——

Mr. Jenner. Your daughter did?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.

Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana Bogoiavlensky—whatever I hear about it.

Mr. Jenner. Is your daughter married—is Christiana married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. To whom is she married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She married Ragnar Kearton.

Mr. Jenner. And who is Ragnar Kearton?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.

Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there.

Mr. Jenner. What is——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Working for the Forestry Department.

Mr. Jenner. In Alaska?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I don't know. Never heard that name.

Mr. Jenner. After she married Kearton——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They changed their name to—according to them—to make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their name, and that was by mutual agreement.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, they—his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is my understanding.

Mr. Jenner. And after they were married they changed their name to Le Gon?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I understand that when they came from China, they decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed their name to Le Gon.

I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying that name professionally. She is well known—she is a well known designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.

Mr. Jenner. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I was not particularly——

Mr. Jenner. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I understand of her family—she also has Russian background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in China, and she was born in China and lived there.

Mr. Jenner. Harbin?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She came to the United States the same year I did.

Mr. Jenner. That is a pure coincidence?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New York, and didn't know each other—right next door.

Mr. Jenner. I understand you are very happily married.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. At last.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the present time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her husband.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They came to visit us in Haiti.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They came to stay with us in December.

Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And January 1964?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in Alaska?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place—in both places.

Mr. Jenner. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do they have any children?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They have no children.

Mr. Jenner. What are Mr. Kearton's interests?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Interests in life? Or professional interests?

Mr. Jenner. Well, give me the professional ones first.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Professional—he is—my wife will tell you more about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is of ultra conservative tendencies politically.

Mr. Jenner. Please explain that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And——

Mr. Jenner. Well, is he an aggressive——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very aggressive fellow.

Mr. Jenner. Is he aggressive politically?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether he has any actual political—I mean whether he actually works to have Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration for him.

I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.

Mr. Jenner. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is probably it, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in April 1956?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, that is correct—5 years. I have the date clearly in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a drinker?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Occasionally, but not too much.

Mr. Jenner. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close to it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is not true, because I have been drunk many times—not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I have drunk more than I should.

Mr. Jenner. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in August 1960.

Mr. Jenner. You are sure of that—rather than 1961?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1960—I am pretty sure.

Mr. Jenner. Well, what I have might be a misprint.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at dates.

But I think it is 1960.

Mr. Jenner. You are very good on names, though.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to get into that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If you are interested, go ahead.

Mr. Jenner. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted myself.

At this point, tell me your political philosophies.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My political philosophy is live and let live. I voted Republican, but—I am just not interested in politics.

Mr. Jenner. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, because I believe in freedom.

Mr. Jenner. Are you talking about individual freedom now?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of criticizing something which I think is not democratic.

Mr. Jenner. What is your attitude towards communism?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.

If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his business.

Mr. Jenner. Have you——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some good characteristics in communism.

Mr. Jenner. There are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there we mean—or what do you mean? What is your concept of communism?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution.

Mr. Jenner. A temporary one?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A temporary one, yes—which eventually, and I believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life.

Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like business to be free. But——

Mr. Jenner. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Which you find in the United States?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that about it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly.

Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.

It is a book which says that—which is available any place here—which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies—could exist eventually.

But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat—you see what I mean? And they develop the tools to produce industrial goods.

While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. You see what I mean?

Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?

Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.

Mr. Jenner. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without it.

Mr. Jenner. Sometimes to excess.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor Faubus, in Arkansas—saying "What happens there? Is that an example of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made an impression on them. A few examples like that.

Mr. Jenner. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the Communists?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Occasionally—after a few drinks, you can talk to them. But they were engineers and geologists—they were not people active politically—they were not big shots.

With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you can discuss.

Mr. Jenner. Are you interested in debate?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very much so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, "George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are not for freedom."

Mr. Jenner. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites are not for freedom?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.

For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an international force?"

I said, "No."

He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."

Mr. Jenner. Well——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred against anybody. I don't hate communism—hell, let them live.

Mr. Jenner. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't want it myself; no.

Mr. Jenner. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.

Mr. Jenner. What workers?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture, using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.

And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility of forming such a venture.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia for the International——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; the next year. This was in 1958.

Mr. Jenner. Were you then married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You had married your present wife?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. Yes—I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jenner. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, in the summer?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.

Mr. Jenner. I haven't reached Oswald yet.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I expressed my point of view pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us more about it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. All right.

John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic countries—especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not use American equipment?

I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable in Washington?"

And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."

It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian venture—form a corporation.

I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.

I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, "George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do business with those damned Communists."

So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.

Mr. Jenner. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, or 1959.

Mr. Jenner. What led you to go to Ghana?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is Ghana.

And while there—he travels around Africa all the time—he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still are supposed to have it, this concession.

Mr. Jenner. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a philatelist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When we arrived in Ghana?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Sure.

Mr. Jenner. Explain that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was a trick, because I was representing the philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.

Mr. Jenner. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because I even didn't go through—I didn't spend any time in Accra. I went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go.

Mr. Jenner. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. have anything—was that political in any nature, and I say political with a capital P.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; of course they have to be friendly with Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only affiliation they have with him.

Mr. Jenner. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects whatsoever?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have explained?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A hundred percent business.

Mr. Jenner. Except that you were working for the International Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was purely business.

Mr. Jenner. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool Corp., that was strictly business?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. No politics involved?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never have.

Mr. Jenner. Representing——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never, never.

Mr. Jenner. Any government?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You can repeat it three times.

Mr. Jenner. Any government?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. I could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.

Mr. Jenner. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You are more than welcome. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish Army—$5 a month.

Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.

Mr. Jenner. Subject to that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Again, no political angle to it.

Mr. Jenner. What I am driving at—whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime—have you at any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of any political group.

Mr. Jenner. And any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Personal views; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital P, on behalf of any group?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like in Texas—I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I say what I think.

Mr. Jenner. Whether they pay you or not——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have never been a member of any group of any kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian venture—the time that you had the company when you were a young man in Europe, traveled around Europe.

We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you came here in May of 1938.

I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and I had you hold off—your trip down into Mexico and the Central American countries—tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in Mexico.

And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the Conquistadors.

You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I started collecting through the years—I started collecting information on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.

But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very—practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all that—I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central America, and possibly all the way to South America.

And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical therapy for your mental problems.

And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do.

We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.

Mr. Jenner. What ranch?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This was—that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. It is called the—it is Piedras Negras. It is on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.

There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have—they are half Mexican, half Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.

By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in the outdoor life.

And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 kilometers—Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the Panama Canal.

Mr. Jenner. All the way to where?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The Panama Canal.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me what countries you passed through.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole of San Salvador—El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.

And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year.

Mr. Jenner. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico City.

Mr. Jenner. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that is interesting. This is completely a different incident.

I went to Mexico City, I guess, with—a year before that, on behalf of——

Mr. Jenner. Just a minute.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is another consulting job.

Mr. Jenner. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was the end of 1960 and 1961—all of 1961.

Mr. Jenner. That took about 8 months?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Almost a year.

Mr. Jenner. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1961.

Mr. Jenner. November, I believe.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I remember that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other occasion?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A different occasion; yes.

Mr. Jenner. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. Tell us about that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. About this Mikoyan incident?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.

Mr. Jenner. We talk about gas here—we are talking about natural gas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in jeopardy—somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big Inch from Texas to the east—through their vice president, John Jacobs, asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.

Mr. Jenner. You say "we."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My wife went with me.

Mr. Jenner. Your present wife?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When did this take place?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was—I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960—one or the other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you call it, was this particular——

Mr. Jenner. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is the pilot of the president—the personal pilot of the President Mateos of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.

By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract—which is the Mexican Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.

Mr. Jenner. So you were then really competing with the Russians?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Competing with the Russians. And through my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the most interesting jobs I ever had.

And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group—the rest of them were technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"

I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to meet the character."

He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to learn something from him.

So I said, "All right, I will go with you."

And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people at Texas Eastern will look at it—they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"—and the Texas Eastern people—they are very conservative Texas people—if I appear in public with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.

Mr. Jenner. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she says, "I better go instead of you."

Mr. Jenner. Your wife?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; so the next morning she went with the Mexican major, the pilot of the president—he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an American—he is not a Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.

It was full of security officers—the Russian security officers and the Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that mess.

Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will introduce you to Mikoyan."

And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected—because she was right there in that group. So she said—he asked her where she is from, and she says, "I am from Texas."

"What do you mean from Texas?"

She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."

And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see you."

So here was the Mikoyan incident.

Mr. Jenner. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan incident?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I declined to go—purely for business reasons—because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy buddy with Mikoyan.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the Central American countries—wasn't that about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything about it.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We didn't know anything about it.

Mr. Jenner. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing to do with it—except I remember we arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country—you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.

Mr. Jenner. The old Conquistador trails?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.

And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."

The consulate—we received our mail through the American consulate.

Mr. Jenner. In Guatemala City?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Everywhere—Guatemala City, San Salvador—not Honduras, but in San Jose—everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul there—could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry my shotgun there.

He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."

And then we left Guatemala City—2 days later—we read the paper on the road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central American countries?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we took—I took—we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.

Mr. Jenner. Samples of what?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to have——

Mr. Jenner. How did you carry it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We sent them back—we carried—all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry 150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. It is a manuscript I have—600 pages—day for day description of our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a publisher in France, and they may publish it.

Mr. Jenner. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more color it might be salable.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by day—that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You see, that took quite some time each day to record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make movies of that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We have a movie made of it, which I have here with me, because I would like to show it—I showed it to many friends in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about 1,200 feet—three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of our trip.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we became completely native. We ate only what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us—we did carry money with us.

Mr. Jenner. Where did that trip end?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers.

Mr. Jenner. You mean local in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Local in Dallas—and local papers in Central America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.

Mr. Jenner. It has no political implications whatsoever?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No political implications. I am not interested at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book.

But I had nothing to do with it.

Mr. Jenner. You went from Panama to where?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We just arrived from the border of Texas to Panama. We performed one big chunk of—we covered a big chunk of territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not many people can do it, you know.

Mr. Jenner. When you completed that trip——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you select Haiti?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, as I said before, I had been there many times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.

Mr. Jenner. What is his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to be a very wealthy man in Russia—also involved in the oil industry in Russia, and in Czarist Russia—a friend of my father's. And I discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost like his son.

We went to visit him—I was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian Government at the same time.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Already then.

Mr. Jenner. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now—in which you are now engaged?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the first step. I received a letter—I still have it—the letter from the Minister of Finance—that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that contract.

Mr. Jenner. Here, again, this is all business?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Purely business.

Mr. Jenner. No political or like considerations?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have never been a member of any subversive group?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; never have.

Mr. Jenner. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups are you a member?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not a member—I am not interested. I am too busy.

Mr. Jenner. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If you call that a group; yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is a group.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum Club political?

Mr. Jenner. No.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, because I don't live there any more.

I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.

I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.

I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.

I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.

Purely professional organizations.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever participated in the affairs of—whether you have been a member of—irrespective of whether you have been a member of, I should say—any political action group, even such things as the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even knew it existed.

You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, except when I want to improve something in our way of life.

Mr. Jenner. In our own way.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.

Mr. Jenner. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to Congressmen—if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the Congressman from Texas here, and I know—I write letters to people in Washington when I want to have something done about something.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you returned to the United States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Returned to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you land?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We landed in—we came by Lykes—Lykes Line ship directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.

Mr. Jenner. Lake Charles?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Lake Charles.

And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Who were your friends that met you there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The friends there were two employees of Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and Jim Savage, engineer.

Mr. Jenner. You had known Jim Savage for some time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you had known Kitchel for some time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. We are now into 1962, are we?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the early part of the year?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you returned to Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment in the same place—very close to the same neighborhood we used to live—6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife started working—because we were getting short of money. We spent all the money on our trip—including this Haiti stay. And at the same time I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in Dallas.

Now, I should repeat again—I am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and I don't.

So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.

Mr. Jenner. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head at the moment.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You have a better memory for dates than I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. She had a very good contract—to come on this trip with me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer.

So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in Dallas at or along about that time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same type—in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.

Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.

One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.

Mr. Jenner. What is his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is Ilya Mamantov.

I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.

He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society group, because he works for a large company.

Mr. Jenner. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. Voshinin. What is his first name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Igor.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis—Dorothy Gravitis?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I just met her once or twice—hardly spoken to her.

Mr. Jenner. The Clarks?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I know them very well.

Mr. Jenner. Max Clark?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali.

Mr. Jenner. Gali is of Russian derivation?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Russian descent, born in France of the upper society in Russia—she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.

Mr. Jenner. What about Mr. Clark?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know.

Mr. Jenner. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name.

Mr. Jenner. That may well be.

Paul Raigorodsky?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is another Russian who is very successful in business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and years.

Mr. Jenner. Let me see some others that come to my mind.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk.

You are acquainted with her?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very slightly.

Mr. Jenner. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort Worth, Irving area.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think she is Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Which one?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Either one of them—the one who is in the advertising business.

Mr. Jenner. George Bouhe.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. He is a leader of the community, is he?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. John and Elena Hall?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is their history?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, she is——

Mr. Jenner. I mean derivation.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is American.

Mr. Jenner. He is a native American. And she is——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of Russian parentage.

Mr. Jenner. Tatiana Biggers?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think I know it.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the son.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I know them.

Mr. Jenner. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the Russian community?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, there are others.

Mr. Jenner. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the Oswalds.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know who of them might have met the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. What about Sam Ballen?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of Voshinin—of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Having in mind this group of people——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, then the priest must know them all—the Russian priest.

Mr. Jenner. What is his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox priest there.

Mr. Jenner. What is his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Father Dimitri.

Mr. Jenner. Father Dimitri—he is from Houston, is he not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor of Spanish at SMU.

Mr. Jenner. In that connection, there are two——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I know that he knows Marina.

Mr. Jenner. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me how that developed.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The one that Father Dimitri is the head of—he is an American and quite a large membership of Americans—they have converted. And the services are in English, although the others—some services are in Russian also.

Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are segregated into two groups.

Mr. Jenner. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; probably, that is right.

Mr. Jenner. And also Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other group.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; he does.

Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into Dallas, through these church groups?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; most of the time I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at least during the time—I don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in Dallas, were you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't like Father Dimitri?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; the previous one.

Mr. Jenner. What was his name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.

Mr. Jenner. It has been said or reported by—from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services—for instance, as I said, to sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, if that is the answer.

Mr. Jenner. Well——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And especially I do not believe in trying to convert people—constantly they push to convert people. But I go occasionally—on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because I like many of those people.

Mr. Jenner. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Communists are——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Communism is a religion, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two—maybe one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox denomination.

Mr. Jenner. But this is speculation on your part?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know for sure.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with others?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand for a year to be in the jungle.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?