TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY (continued 2)

Mr. Truly. They are very light.

Mr. Belin. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 Rolling Readers weigh?

Mr. Truly. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten pounds.

Mr. Belin. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?

Mr. Truly. That's right.

Mr. Belin. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 inclusive.

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through 506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the last time I saw him until November 16th."

Did I hear you say that?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on October 16th, the morning he came to work.

Mr. McCloy. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him until November 16th.

Mr. Truly. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant October 16th.

The Chairman. Which was the next morning?

Mr. Truly. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.

Mr. Dulles. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. Dulles. At a different warehouse?

Mr. Truly. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe—November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. Dulles. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush—if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

Mr. McCloy. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as FBI, regarding him?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; nothing ever.

Mr. Dulles. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia and return from Russia?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.

Mr. Dulles. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?

Mr. Truly. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. Truly. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for—that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.

I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit—maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces—not anything—but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

Mr. Belin. Would you consider him of average intelligence?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

Mr. Belin. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. Truly. No. When I came down from the second floor—from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. Belin. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly. I didn't look.

Mr. Belin. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

Mr. Belin. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. Truly. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. Belin. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. Truly. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. Belin. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?

Mr. Truly. I cannot.

Mr. Belin. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

Mr. Truly. I was not aware of it.

Mr. Belin. All right. I have no further questions.

The Chairman. Any other questions?

Representative Ford. How many employees do you have in the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. Truly. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.

Representative Ford. On November 22d.

Mr. Dulles. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?

Mr. Truly. Possibly any—possibly so. We have one man that checks. He hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility—there might be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.

Representative Ford. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?

Mr. Truly. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind—because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.

Representative Ford. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?

Mr. Truly. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of—the direction of the shot, that I did not believe—still did not believe—maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names.

Mr. Dulles. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. You did not?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative Ford. Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?

Mr. Truly. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15—between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

Representative Ford. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?

Mr. Truly. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair—whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be blonde.

Mr. Dulles. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room, did any words pass between you?

Mr. Truly. No. The officer said something to the boy.

Mr. Dulles. I mean between you and Oswald.

Mr. Truly. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.

Mr. Dulles. What was he doing?

Mr. Truly. He was just standing there.

Mr. Dulles. Did he have a coke?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. No drink?

Mr. Truly. No drink at all. Just standing there.

Mr. Dulles. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?

Mr. Truly. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been running or anything.

Mr. Dulles. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any direction?

Mr. Truly. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around towards his middle, almost touching.

Mr. Dulles. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going to take.

Mr. Truly. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the assassination that he would take that route.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School Depository?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other member—any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this affair?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make me feel that they might be connected with it.

Mr. McCloy. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or unidentified characters during his employment with you?

Mr. Truly. Never.

Mr. Dulles. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?

Mr. Truly. Never knew of a one; no, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the building?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.

Mr. Dulles. Pay telephone or office telephone?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a pushbutton type.

Mr. McCloy. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that telephone?

Mr. Truly. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.

Mr. Dulles. Would you have any record or be able to find out now whether he had ever used it?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any bundle?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett—we walked along from that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. How fast were we going—running, trotting, walking or what?

Mr. Truly. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I would say.

Mr. Belin. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?

Mr. Truly. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as near as I remember.

Mr. Belin. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the stairs?

Mr. Truly. I believe so. I believe it to be.

Mr. McCloy. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald took?

Mr. Truly. I think—he had two possible routes there. One of them, he could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the sixth floor stairs.

Mr. Dulles. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to get from the sixth to the second floor?

Mr. Truly. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second floor—it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down—since we did see the elevators in those positions.

Mr. Dulles. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else go up to that floor and leave it?

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

Representative Ford. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then sent it up to a higher floor?

Mr. Truly. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

Mr. Belin. On both elevators?

Mr. Truly. That is just the west one only.

Representative Ford. That was feasible, even though it might be a little difficult?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. There was no button on the outside that permitted him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

Mr. Truly. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his hand all through there and press one.

Mr. Dulles. Would he have to break any glass to do it?

Mr. Truly. No, sir. The car gate—and then there was an outside gate slatted—slats about this far apart.

Mr. McCloy. When you entered the building with the officer behind you, when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no cordon at that time thrown around the building?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer having been at the doorway at that point?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came from there because of the echo or what.

Mr. Dulles. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of the back doors?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature—from the direction he was walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second floor—it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything stopped.

Mr. McCloy. From what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

Mr. Belin. If we can go off the record for just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

The Chairman. Back on the record.

Mr. Truly. I thank you very much.

The Chairman. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal.

We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)