Friday, March 20, 1964 TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED (continued 2)

Mr. Jenner. Would you hold your hands there please.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.

Mr. Liebeler. Thirty-two and a half inches.

Senator Cooper. What was the width of the package?

Mrs. Paine. Like so.

Senator Cooper. That you wrapped?

Mrs. Paine. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.

Mr. Liebeler. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7½ inches.

Senator Cooper. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?

Mrs. Paine. Two and a half inches to three inches.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Two and a half to three inches.

Senator Cooper. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Jenner. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate——

Mrs. Paine. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?

Mr. Jenner. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?

Mrs. Paine. That is the front door.

Mr. Jenner. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.

Mrs. Paine. Practically the rest of the wall is window.

Mr. Jenner. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The fact is that is a picture window?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.

Mr. Jenner. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCloy. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.

Senator Cooper. I can stay here while the details are filled in.

Mr. Jenner. The police arrived and what occurred.

Mrs. Paine. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything?

Mrs. Paine. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.

They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.

Mr. Jenner. How many police officers were there?

Mrs. Paine. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it—had looked into—she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.

Mr. Jenner. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?

Mrs. Paine. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.

Mr. Jenner. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.

Mrs. Paine. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.

Mr. Jenner. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised——

Mrs. Paine. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.

Mr. Jenner. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?

Mrs. Paine. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done——

Mr. McCloy. Were the strings still on it?

Mrs. Paine. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. Jenner. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?

Mrs. Paine. No crinkling.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.

Mrs. Paine. Not anything in the way of paper.

Mr. Jenner. Or wrapping.

Mrs. Paine. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.

Mr. Jenner. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?

Mrs. Paine. No such sensation.

Mr. Jenner. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.

Mrs. Paine. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course I judged——

Mr. Jenner. Did she blanch?

Mrs. Paine. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.

Representative Ford. How close was she standing to it.

Mrs. Paine. From here to there, about 6 feet.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.

Mr. Jenner. How far away from your home—where did he live?

Mrs. Paine. It would take about a half hour drive—he was working—from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?

Mrs. Paine. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where he lived?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the address?

Mrs. Paine. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.

Mr. Jenner. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?

Mrs. Paine. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. Paine. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.

Mr. Jenner. What distance in miles from your home?

Mrs. Paine. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mrs. Paine. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina in the meantime?

Mrs. Paine. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if—there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.

We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."

And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."

And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."

And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. They interviewed Michael at one point separately.

Mr. Jenner. Separately?

Mrs. Paine. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.

Mr. Jenner. Did you interpret for her?

Mrs. Paine. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."

Then at the police station——

Representative Ford. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?

Mrs. Paine. No; none that I recall.

Representative Ford. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?

Mrs. Paine. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.

They then brought in——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.

She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.

Mr. Jenner. The telescope sight?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had never met her before.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. I had never talked with her.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?

Mrs. Paine. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. What time was this about?

Mrs. Paine. She heard it?

Mr. Jenner. No; that she came?

Mrs. Paine. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm greeting in the police station.

Mr. Jenner. Between whom?

Mrs. Paine. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me later.

Mr. Jenner. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.

Mr. Jenner. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to—that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?

Mrs. Paine. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any indication to the contrary?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.

Mr. Jenner. There was this lack of prior notice?

Mrs. Paine. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?

Mrs. Paine. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.

Mr. Jenner. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.

Mr. Jenner. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on the part of anybody that she return to your home?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.

The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.

Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.

Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald——

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.

She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't—they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.

Mr. Jenner. You made no impression on her?

Mrs. Paine. I made no impression on her.

Mr. Jenner. I take it——

Mrs. Paine. She made an impression on me.

Mr. Jenner. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.

Mrs. Paine. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. I was——

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any advance notice?

Mrs. Paine. We had had no advance notice.

Mr. Jenner. Nobody did?

Mrs. Paine. Nobody did.

Mr. Jenner. You in particular and none of the others in the room?

Mrs. Paine. None of the others.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression?

Mrs. Paine. I would be quite certain that none of the others and myself——

Mr. Jenner. At least that was your impression at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.

Mr. Jenner. Had that occurred to you?

Mrs. Paine. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. What connection?

Mrs. Paine. Between the need for money.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. And she was the one who raised that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she raised it.

Mr. Jenner. For commercialization of the story?

Mrs. Paine. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.

Mr. Jenner. That was all instigated by her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.

Mr. Jenner. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?

Mrs. Paine. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.

I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?

Mrs. Paine. Not to me.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing of that implied?

Mrs. Paine. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "we", who do you mean?

Mrs. Paine. The household. I think we had not yet—we pretty much woke all at once.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband remain at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.

They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impression that——

Mr. Jenner. From her conversation with the Life representatives?

Mrs. Paine. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.

Mr. Jenner. March 9, 1964?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Just a week or so ago?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.

Mr. Jenner. To see you, at your home?

Mrs. Paine. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post—well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.

I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.

Mr. Jenner. He left your home?

Mrs. Paine. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.

This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."

I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.

Representative Ford. Did you take your children shopping?

Mrs. Paine. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang?

Mrs. Paine. The phone rang; I answered it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?

Mr. Jenner. What did the voice say?

Mrs. Paine. The voice said: "This is Lee."

Mr. Jenner. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.

Mrs. Paine. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.

Mr. Jenner. Two telephone numbers he gave you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?

Mrs. Paine. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.

Mr. Jenner. Represent him?

Mrs. Paine. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?

Mrs. Paine. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?

Mrs. Paine. There is a little more that is——

Senator Cooper. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?

Mrs. Paine. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.

I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did not express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.

Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.

Mr. Jenner. This is speculation?

Mrs. Paine. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang?

Mrs. Paine. He asked me to contact John Abt.

Mr. Jenner. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He wanted me to call this lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?

Mrs. Paine. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?

Mrs. Paine. He may have added.

Mr. Jenner. Did you, please?

Mrs. Paine. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.

Mr. McCloy. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?

Mrs. Paine. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?

Mrs. Paine. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't say where he was?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. He just started out saying what you now say he said?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?

Mrs. Paine. He did not say that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Representative Ford. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. About what time?

Mrs. Paine. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.

Representative Ford. Had you seen him the day before?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?

Mrs. Paine. Just my children.

Mr. McCloy. Just your children.

Representative Ford. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?

Mrs. Paine. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.

Representative Ford. They were there alone?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Did they indicate—were they still there when you got back?

Mrs. Paine. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.

Mr. McCloy. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?

Mrs. Paine. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.

Mr. McCloy. All right.

Mrs. Paine. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.

Mr. Jenner. A third time?

Mrs. Paine. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time, please.

Mrs. Paine. It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?

Mrs. Paine. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.

Mr. Jenner. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. I recognized the voice.

Mr. Jenner. Whose was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was Lee Oswald's.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. He spoke in English the entire conversation.

Mr. Jenner. The two in the afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. Paine. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.

Mr. Jenner. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?

Mrs. Paine. He certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to—he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to——

Mr. Jenner. Did he sound irritated?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.

Mr. Jenner. And he so instructed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is what he said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.

Mr. Jenner. What response did you give to his direction?

Mrs. Paine. I said I would try to reach her.

Mr. Jenner. His direction——

Mrs. Paine. And tell her his message.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. Paine. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Mr. Jenner. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. Paine. I do not specifically recall.

Mr. Jenner. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. Paine. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the assassination mentioned at all?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.

Mr. Jenner. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?

Mrs. Paine. That day.

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I then dialed——

Mr. Jenner. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was no further——

Mr. Jenner. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?

Mrs. Paine. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.

Mr. Jenner. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or any comments he made mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever reach Abt?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. Paine. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me?

Mrs. Paine. I made no effort to call the police station.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Other than what you have now related?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?

Mrs. Paine. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.

Representative Ford. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just——

Mrs. Paine. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.

Representative Ford. Never heard of him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?

Mrs. Paine. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?

Senator Cooper. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. I think you said she said something about——

Mrs. Paine. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. Paine. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about—had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you on the 23d of November?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The 24th?

Mrs. Paine. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.

Mr. Jenner. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no contact at all with him?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.

Representative Ford. Did she know it?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.

Senator Cooper. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in the bedroom where they had stayed.

Mr. Jenner. Did she sound less than cordial——

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?

Mrs. Paine. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't mention it?

Mrs. Paine. I did not tell her; no.

Mr. Jenner. Did you—it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do——

Mrs. Paine. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.

Mr. Jenner. Was under restraint?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. From some outside source?

Mrs. Paine. I had no such feeling.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed——

Mr. Jenner. The police officers had already arrived at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.

Mr. Jenner. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; when Marina made the call.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You told them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?

Mrs. Paine. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.

Mr. McCloy. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you?

Mrs. Paine. No; the situation was strained.

Mr. McCloy. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?

Mrs. Paine. No; because her husband had been shot.

Mr. McCloy. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?

Mrs. Paine. No; none I detected.

Mr. Jenner. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. On the previous day?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Have you felt any evidence of that since?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.

Mr. McCloy. Have you completed your report?

Mrs. Paine. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to——

Mrs. Paine. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.

Mr. McCloy. That was all through September, October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; September, October; yes.

Mr. McCloy. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any—about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move?

Mrs. Paine. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. It didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please?

Mrs. Paine. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I can tell when Michael was in the house.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission exhibit number what?

Mrs. Paine. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they before the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1. I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Marina was present?

Mrs. Paine. Marina was present.

Mr. Jenner. Did she overhear?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain—I tried to translate some of this conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to her?

Mrs. Paine. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.

Mr. Jenner. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.

Mr. McCloy. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.

Mr. Jenner. There was a succeeding date?

Mrs. Paine. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by the FBI was November 5, the first time.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?

Mrs. Paine. I recall——

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it was in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I recall it was in the early part of the week.

Mr. Jenner. Did the same gentleman call?

Mrs. Paine. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.

Mr. Jenner. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.

Mr. McCloy. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the activity of Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, indeed.

Mr. McCloy. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I have, the questions I have.

Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period?

Senator Cooper. Are you going to continue this afternoon?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Senator Cooper. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of Lee and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.

Representative Ford. But even after he gained employment at the Texas School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?

Mrs. Paine. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.

Mr. Jenner. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally?

Mrs. Paine. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Representative Ford. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. Thank you.

Mr. McCloy. I have no more questions.

I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not——

Mrs. Paine. I do understand.

Mr. McCloy. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country.

Mrs. Paine. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.

Mr. Jenner. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.

Mr. McCloy. Anything that is in the background that you have——

Mrs. Paine. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking distance. It was longer than that.

If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was.

Representative Ford. What was his reaction when you objected? First, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind?

Mrs. Paine. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly drive it home."

From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.

Mr. Jenner. In the fall you mean?

Mrs. Paine. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. It is a whole subject really.

Representative Ford. Can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car?

Mrs. Paine. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street.

Representative Ford. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop.

Representative Ford. You just suggested it might be better?

Mrs. Paine. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way home I would drive.

Mr. McCloy. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I imagine, except implicitly.

It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises?

Mrs. Paine. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.

Mr. McCloy. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.

Senator Cooper. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)