Friday, March 20, 1964 TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Senator Cooper. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Senator Cooper. You are still under that affirmation?

Mrs. Paine. I understand that I am under that affirmation.

Mr. Jenner. May I proceed?

Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. Chairman, may I qualify some documents?

The Chairman. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. She gave it to me a few days ago.

Mr. Jenner. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page not being relative to this case.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page?

Mrs. Paine. I have the other page.

Mr. Jenner. May I have it?

Mrs. Paine. The other page, of course, contains my signature.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission Exhibit No. ——.

Mrs. Paine. I'd rather not have that part of it——

Mr. Jenner. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. Is that your signature?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made.

You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. No. This is the only time I saw—this is the only handwriting of his I have seen.

Mr. Jenner. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting——

Mrs. Paine. To know that this is his handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen that Document before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first see it?

Mrs. Paine. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say 10th?

Mrs. Paine. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.

Senator Cooper. What is the answer?

Mrs. Paine. It is that document.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw a typed transcript.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.

Mr. Jenner. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. I made a duplicate in longhand.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a present recollection that this, Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 103 the document—oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.

Senator Cooper. It is in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence.

Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.

Mr. Jenner. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are.

Mr. Jenner. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area immediately to the left of the—of what is designated as kitchen-dining area.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an arrow, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. That is the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, is that a front view of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when the picture was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Probably. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But that is an accurate depiction?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of the rear of your home?

Mrs. Paine. It is certainly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is that a view of the east side of your home?

Mrs. Paine. East and north; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Jenner. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of your home?

Mrs. Paine. West and north.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Despite that, is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. It is perfectly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered "kitchen-dining area."

Mrs. Paine. It is a picture of that portion.

Mr. Jenner. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, have you ever been in the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.

Mr. McCloy. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?

Mr. Jenner. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in existence.

I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. On several occasions?

Mrs. Paine. Two or three; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Surrounding the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed; I am.

Mr. Jenner. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say it is.

Mr. Jenner. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Does your recollection serve you——

Mrs. Paine. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there and I am not certain.

Mr. Jenner. Let us return to the floor plan.

Mrs. Paine. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking then west.

Mr. Jenner. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Which exhibit are you referring to now?

Mr. Jenner. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444, is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Across the street?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the carport?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. It looks like it.

Mr. Jenner. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the Randle home, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the west side of the Randle house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Showing that carport area?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is accurate, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. It is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And is Commission Exhibit 448——

Senator Cooper. What was the number of the photograph which you just referred to?

Mr. Jenner. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph—does that point to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an accurate photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?

Mrs. Paine. It looks to be exactly that.

Mr. Jenner. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that accurate?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Senator Cooper. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, please.

Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?

Mrs. Paine. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the 21st.

Mr. Jenner. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would appear on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Irving, Tex., that afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house.

Mr. Jenner. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No word whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452.

Senator Cooper. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452 were received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.

Senator Cooper. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside?

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?

Representative Ford. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a conference out of town.

The Chairman. You are both going out of town, aren't you?

Senator Cooper. I can go and come back if it is necessary.

The Chairman. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?

Mr. McCloy. He is out of town.

The Chairman. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over.

Senator Cooper. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon.

The Chairman. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.

Mrs. Paine. I am glad to do what I can.

The Chairman. You know that it is necessary.

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

The Chairman. Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in which direction were you coming?

Mrs. Paine. I was coming from the east.

Mr. Jenner. From the east?

Mrs. Paine. Along West Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw Lee in your courtyard?

Mrs. Paine. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?

Mrs. Paine. The area of the front yard; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?

Mrs. Paine. Moderately set back.

Mr. Jenner. What would you judge that distance to be?

Mrs. Paine. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk.

Mr. Jenner. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?

Mrs. Paine. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?

Mrs. Paine. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. In your driveway?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Up close to the garage opening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door?

Mrs. Paine. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.

Mr. Jenner. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you go into your home directly? Did you walk around?

Mrs. Paine. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front lawn.

Mr. Jenner. Was their daughter June out in front as well?

Mrs. Paine. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was playing with June.

Mr. Jenner. How was he attired?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?

Mrs. Paine. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the color of his trousers?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?

Mrs. Paine. I was.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say to him?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall greeting him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I think I did.

Mr. Jenner. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear?

Mrs. Paine. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked permission prior to coming.

Mr. Jenner. And there never had been an exception to that up to this moment?

Mrs. Paine. No exception.

Mr. Jenner. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?

Mrs. Paine. It was getting on toward 5:30.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said "Why, that is all right."

Mr. Jenner. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing.

Mr. Jenner. And nothing was——

Mrs. Paine. She was clearly surprised also.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. At least not as of that moment.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that place, position?

Mrs. Paine. Less than a minute.

Mr. Jenner. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I can only reconstruct it.

Mr. Jenner. That is all I am asking you to do.

Mrs. Paine. I must have gotten groceries from the car.

Mr. Jenner. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would give me first your recollection.

Mrs. Paine. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing just inside the doorway.

Mr. Jenner. Of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Of my home.

Mr. Jenner. But inside the home?

Mrs. Paine. But inside now.

Mr. Jenner. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway?

Mrs. Paine. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. I was facing this way.

Mr. Jenner. Why were you facing outwardly?

Mrs. Paine. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to speak to Lee as he came in.

Mr. Jenner. Lee followed you in the house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did Marina come in?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into your home.

Mrs. Paine. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room and the position he was in.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us.

Mrs. Paine. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which I refer.

Mr. Jenner. What was the loud speaker?

Mrs. Paine. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands—it is a big thing.

Mr. Jenner. Did something occur at that moment?

Mrs. Paine. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is coming to town in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it again.

Mrs. Paine. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have an attitude of indifference?

Mrs. Paine. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.

Mr. Jenner. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home?

Mrs. Paine. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He didn't leave the house to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did he pass from your sight?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.

Senator Cooper. Tell what you remember.

Mr. McCloy. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.

Mrs. Paine. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.

Mr. Jenner. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And does the entrance to your garage—is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?

Mrs. Paine. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your answer was yes?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of that fact, were you?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while I was preparing dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I'd have to guess.

Senator Cooper. Just tell what you know.

Mr. Jenner. Tell what you know first.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house?

Mrs. Paine. I recall that she was inside the house.

Mr. Jenner. And where was the child June with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house?

Mrs. Paine. She was inside.

Mr. Jenner. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also inside the house?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.

Mr. Jenner. Was he playing with his daughter?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Probably half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late November?

Mrs. Paine. I would say between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?

Mrs. Paine. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Jenner. When did you sit down for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I suppose around 6:30.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Was it still light outside, natural light?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And how long did dinner take?

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period?

Mrs. Paine. Either there or in the living room.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave your home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have a firm recollection of that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the garage area?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did you?

Mrs. Paine. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.

Mr. Jenner. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal?

Mrs. Paine. I could have gone out then too.

Mr. Jenner. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage.

Mrs. Paine. It is possible.

Mr. Jenner. Garage area.

Senator Cooper. But you don't remember?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.

Mr. Jenner. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I was busy putting my children to bed.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you located during that period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side.

Senator Cooper. Did you do it that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain I read them a story.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a bath that night I can't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was also your bedroom——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home?

Mrs. Paine. The view from the bedroom door.

Mr. Jenner. Looking into what?

Mrs. Paine. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Can you see into the living room area of your home?

Mrs. Paine. From that doorway you can; yes.

Mr. Jenner. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.

Mrs. Paine. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.

Mr. Jenner. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed?

Mrs. Paine. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.

Mr. Jenner. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically how long.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour period?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was in the home.

Senator Cooper. How would you be aware he was in the home?

Mrs. Paine. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing.

Mr. Jenner. Why would it be unusual?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside?

Mrs. Paine. Was to turn on the television set and sit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he turn on the television set?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe he watched television that evening.

Mr. Jenner. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was not out in the yard?

Senator Cooper. How would you know that?

Mrs. Paine. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.

Senator Cooper. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds together with other evenings which were similar.

Senator Cooper. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening.

Mr. McCloy. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is.

Senator Cooper. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry.

Mr. McCloy. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?

Senator Cooper. Just tell what you remember.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.

Mrs. Paine. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I went to the garage to work.

Mr. Jenner. Was it now nighttime?

Mrs. Paine. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that the light was on.

Mr. Jenner. Was the door to the garage open?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was closed.

Mr. Jenner. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened the door.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that?

Mrs. Paine. Not that evening; no.

Mr. Jenner. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on?

Mrs. Paine. If I had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off.

Senator Cooper. You don't remember if you did that or not before.

Mrs. Paine. Specifically, no.

Mr. McCloy. She said she might have been.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a hand switch?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. The switch is in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit 435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that picture?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not.

Mr. Jenner. And why is it not shown?

Mrs. Paine. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light.

Mr. Jenner. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And rather high?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate?

Mrs. Paine. It is exactly.

Mr. Jenner. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see the switch?

Mrs. Paine. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.

Mr. Jenner. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline.

Mrs. Paine. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Is that the light switch?

Mrs. Paine. I thought it was higher.

Senator Cooper. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?

Mr. McCloy. There is a light switch there.

Mrs. Paine. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture.

Mr. Jenner. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level?

Mrs. Paine. Are you still asking?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.

Mr. Jenner. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level?

Mrs. Paine. Approximately at a level.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks.

Mr. Jenner. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?

Mrs. Paine. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Representative Ford. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you describe your attitude in this regard?

Mrs. Paine. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.

Representative Ford. This is a trait that you have?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?

Mrs. Paine. And off; yes.

Representative Ford. It is very simple for you to do so?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Both going out and coming in?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. And as you go out on your right or left?

Mrs. Paine. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.

Representative Ford. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right.

Mrs. Paine. As you come into the garage from the kitchen——

Mr. McCloy. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?

Mrs. Paine. It is on my right.

Mr. McCloy. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left?

Mrs. Paine. That is what he said.

Mr. McCloy. You said it just the opposite, I think.

Representative Ford. I thought I asked the question and she responded in the reverse.

Mr. McCloy. Maybe.

Representative Ford. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may show two different responses there.

Mr. Jenner. Could we recover that now?

Mrs. Paine. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or your left side?

Mrs. Paine. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.

Mr. Jenner. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have any observation?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room.

Representative Ford. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room?

Mrs. Paine. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms—if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off.

Mr. Jenner. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.

Mr. Jenner. So the lights are on?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Would you make any observation about Lee's tendencies or traits in this regard?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.

Mr. Jenner. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?

Mrs. Paine. That was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can.

Mr. Jenner. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.

Mrs. Paine. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.

Mr. Jenner. So that normally your garage door is down?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was it down when you arrived?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?

Mrs. Paine. I have no such recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.

Mr. Jenner. It was down then?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.

Mr. Jenner. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?

Mrs. Paine. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have heard it.

Mr. Jenner. But if it were raised normally?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks?

Mrs. Paine. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior portion.

Mr. Jenner. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. About a half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have left it on.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to the light having been left on?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No comment at all?

Mrs. Paine. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.

Mr. Jenner. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time?

Mrs. Paine. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where I was.

Senator Cooper. Did you see him in the bedroom?

Mrs. Paine. In the bedroom?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; but I'd be——

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.

Senator Cooper. You saw him go to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. That is your definite consciousness?

Mrs. Paine. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of it.

Senator Cooper. I think you have got to tell what you remember that night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. You do have that recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described.

Mr. Jenner. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You left the garage then, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you go when you left the garage?

Mrs. Paine. To the kitchen or living room.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Marina was still up.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening?

Mrs. Paine. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.

Mr. Jenner. The answer to my question is no?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.

Mr. Jenner. Or she with him?

Mrs. Paine. Or she with him.

Mr. Jenner. What time that evening did you retire?

Mrs. Paine. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.

Mr. Jenner. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.

Mr. Jenner. You first weren't conscious of it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't stumble over it.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.

Mr. Jenner. You tell us about it.

Mrs. Paine. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, concurred with that judgment of it.

Mr. Jenner. What was the attitude that evening?

Mrs. Paine. He was very warm and friendly.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?

Mrs. Paine. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was just, still early.

Mr. Jenner. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she reserved because of this quarrel?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression of her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of her conduct.

Senator Cooper. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.

Mr. Jenner. Do exactly what?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't ask him why he had come.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question to——

Mrs. Paine. She did not ask him.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, she did not.

Mr. McCloy. She did not.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I am sorry.

Mrs. Paine. Certainly not in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?

Mrs. Paine. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or 5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to 15 minutes?

Mrs. Paine. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of that nature occurred?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.

Mr. Jenner. You say doing. You mean an awareness——

Mrs. Paine. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee that had left it on.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Rather than Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Because of her habit of turning off lights?

Mrs. Paine. Not only that. I feel that I—memory of what she had been doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She was involved with the children.

Mr. Jenner. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage at anytime?

Mrs. Paine. That evening?

Mr. Jenner. That evening.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Did not see him in the garage; no.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of November 21?

Mr. McCloy. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can before we go.

Mr. Jenner. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.

Senator Cooper. If you can get through the events of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. You retired along about 11:30?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I woke at 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.

Mr. Jenner. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not.

Mr. Jenner. You sleep with your children, do you not?

Mrs. Paine. We are in the same bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. You awakened when in the morning?

Mrs. Paine. At 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?

Mrs. Paine. That was all he normally had for breakfast.

Mr. Jenner. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?

Mrs. Paine. Instant coffee; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?

Mrs. Paine. It was very normal for him to take coffee.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?

Mrs. Paine. No; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open?

Mrs. Paine. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what happened?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Go ahead and narrate.

Mrs. Paine. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.

I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.

Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.

I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come to your attention?

Mrs. Paine. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.

Mr. Jenner. Did you communicate that to her?

Mrs. Paine. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe she said anything. I then also——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything at all that she said.

Mr. Jenner. Would you——

Mr. McCloy. You told her that you had heard over the television?

Mrs. Paine. I heard that the shot had been made——

Mr. McCloy. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.

Senator Cooper. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?

Mrs. Paine. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand——

Senator Cooper. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none; no.

Mr. Jenner. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.

Mr. McCloy. But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.

Mr. Jenner. She did not comment?

Mrs. Paine. She did not comment.

Mr. Jenner. Made no comment?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa.

Mr. Jenner. Marina had come in from the yard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. From the hanging of the clothes?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.

Mr. McCloy. Just take a little time and compose yourself.

Mrs. Paine. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and——

Senator Cooper. Why don't you rest a few minutes?

Mrs. Paine. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.

Mr. Jenner. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?

Mrs. Paine. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.

Mr. McCloy. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were sitting on the sofa—that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?

Mrs. Paine. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. McCloy. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?

Mrs. Paine. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.

Mr. McCloy. Not until the officers came?

Mrs. Paine. Do you want to ask me about that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door——

Mr. McCloy. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?

Mr. Jenner. I was waiting for you.

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television?

Mrs. Paine. No; that was earlier.

Mr. McCloy. That was even earlier?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.

Senator Cooper. But when you were all sitting there——

Mrs. Paine. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell her.

Senator Cooper. To tell her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. After that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from——

Mrs. Paine. You mean, someone associated with the building?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; that was not said.

Senator Cooper. There was nothing else said about that?

Mrs. Paine. No; just that the shot came from the building.

Mr. McCloy. Nothing else that you heard?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing else about it.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? Did she come in the house?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did she enter the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house.

Mr. Jenner. She might have gone into the house?

Mrs. Paine. She might have gone into the house.

Mr. Jenner. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall.

Senator Cooper. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. She was hanging clothes.

Senator Cooper. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained until they were all hung.

Senator Cooper. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone?

Mrs. Paine. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that Marina had entered the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. And I would not have seen her; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is it possible—is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?

Mrs. Paine. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond——

Mr. Jenner. You are talking about the inside door?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. First I would like to know this——

Mrs. Paine. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back——

Mr. Jenner. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. So you can't see into the garage, at least from——

Mrs. Paine. From the back of my house you can't; no.

Mr. Jenner. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?

Mrs. Paine. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window.

Mr. Jenner. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that Marina was in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. No consciousness of that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I have no specific recollection of having done so.

Mr. Jenner. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. Robert—or is it Roberts?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Came over. Was Marina present——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you sit down and talk?

Mrs. Paine. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the news.

Mr. Jenner. She was there just a bit of the time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.

Mr. Jenner. She did not. She stood in the doorway?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did she speak to you and to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more than, "Have you heard?".

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. Reynolds?

Mrs. Paine. No. Roberts.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that morning—if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I believe there were.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you wrapped that package yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?

Mrs. Paine. They were a light weight.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me; do you still have them?

Mrs. Paine. I still have them.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.

Mr. Jenner. Are they flat on one side?

Mrs. Paine. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick.

Mr. Jenner. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Sometime previously I had.

Senator Cooper. How long before?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, possibly a year.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly a year.

Senator Cooper. As far as you know, they had never been changed?

Mrs. Paine. Moved about, but not changed.

Senator Cooper. Can you just describe the length?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.

Mrs. Paine. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator Cooper. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. How long?

Mrs. Paine. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, how many of them were there?

Mrs. Paine. Two.

Mr. Jenner. These were lightweight metal?

Mrs. Paine. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer.

Mr. Jenner. In that same package?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place.

Mr. Jenner. And had you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How many were there?

Mrs. Paine. Two.

Mr. Jenner. And what was their length?

Mrs. Paine. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the back bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. Paine. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?

Mrs. Paine. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. Jenner. When did this take place?

Mrs. Paine. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. Jenner. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. It is my recollection it was.

Mr. Jenner. What about the Venetian blind package?

Mrs. Paine. Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. Jenner. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?

Mrs. Paine. A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator Cooper. At any time?

Mrs. Paine. Did I, personally?

Senator Cooper. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator Cooper. Both of them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Or just one?

Mrs. Paine. Both.

Senator Cooper. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator Cooper. But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. Paine. It was not my most pressing——

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator Cooper. I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator Cooper. Didn't that lead you—Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. Paine. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator Cooper. I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. Paine. So I did not.

Senator Cooper. You never did do it?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. Jenner. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. Jenner. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. Paine. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. Jenner. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"——

Mrs. Paine. "And thin."

Mr. Jenner. What is the next word?

Mrs. Paine. "Curtain rods."

Mr. Jenner. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the Venetian blinds?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. They were not round.

Mr. Jenner. They were flat and slender?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were not at all heavy?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.

Mr. Jenner. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?

Mrs. Paine. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?

Mrs. Paine. You are looking down.

Mr. Jenner. Now, where was the break?

Mrs. Paine. The break?

Mr. Jenner. You said they were extension.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.

Mr. Jenner. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The double line indicates what on either side?

Mrs. Paine. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.

Mrs. Paine. You are perfectly welcome to them.

Mr. Jenner. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the package until we arrive?

Mrs. Paine. I won't even look, then.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?

Mrs. Paine. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.

Mr. Jenner. And "B"?

Mrs. Paine. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.

Mr. Jenner. While the rod was in place?

Mrs. Paine. While the rod was in place.

Mr. Jenner. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.

I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.

Senator Cooper. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No; there was no such conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of curtain rods—had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. It had not been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Never by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. By anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?

Mrs. Paine. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.

Mr. Jenner. The rods were identical in length when unextended?

Mrs. Paine. Or when fully extended; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. Paine. Or when fully extended.

Mr. Jenner. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?

Mrs. Paine. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.

Mr. Jenner. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.

Mrs. Paine. I believe it is more that width than 36.

Mr. Jenner. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.

Mr. Jenner. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?

Mr. Liebeler. About 28 inches.

Mr. Jenner. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?

Mrs. Paine. Not the Dallas police.

Mr. McCloy. Not the Dallas police?

Mrs. Paine. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.

Mr. McCloy. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?

Mrs. Paine. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods having left.

Mr. McCloy. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely no.

Mr. McCloy. But possibly some member of the FBI did?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly. I can't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You can't recall?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you have now testified?

Mrs. Paine. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mrs. Paine. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.

Mr. Jenner. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?

Mrs. Paine. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.

Representative Ford. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.

Representative Ford. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.

Mrs. Paine. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon which——

Mr. Jenner. The note was found?

Mrs. Paine. The note was found.

Representative Ford. You kept it in the lower drawer?

Mrs. Paine. Along with some gum tape and string.

Representative Ford. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?

Mrs. Paine. Two, I am certain.

Mr. Jenner. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly very similar.

Senator Cooper. What was the answer?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?

Mrs. Paine. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You think he might have but you don't know.

Mrs. Paine. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.

Mr. Jenner. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.

Mr. Jenner. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.

Mr. Jenner. But you do not?

Mrs. Paine. But I do not remember such an occasion.

Mr. Jenner. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.

Senator Cooper. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.

Mr. Jenner. You did find the package?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?

Mrs. Paine. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.