Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED (continued 2)

Mr. Jenner. That is addressed to Marina.

Senator Cooper. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the original and I also have a typewritten copy.

Senator Cooper. It has not been offered as part of evidence?

Mr. Jenner. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.

Mrs. Paine. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the Oswalds but to my marriage.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name——

Senator Cooper. Let me just say for the record I think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as I recall?

Mrs. Paine. Which letter are you referring to?

(Short recess.)

Senator Cooper. On the record.

Mr. Jenner. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, I hope in a hurry.

You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. It was early morning.

Mr. Jenner. Early morning.

Did you drive right straight through to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And where, in Texas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the name of the town?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you pay for that lodging?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need.

Mr. Jenner. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did he return to Dallas the following day?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days by you?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.

Mr. Jenner. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.

Mrs. Paine. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't I, for the record?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. With——

Mr. Jenner. Even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated?

Mrs. Paine. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

What occasion was this?

Mrs. Paine. What day?

Mr. Jenner. Day, yes; please?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a Monday.

Mr. Jenner. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was it after he had become employed with the Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was his purpose.

Mr. Jenner. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. Roberts about this.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th of October?

Mrs. Paine. No; on the 14th.

Mr. Jenner. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?

Mrs. Paine. I can't think when else it could have been.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate—did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his apartment or room?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your home or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?

Mrs. Paine. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator.

Mr. Jenner. But other than that he didn't describe it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such conversation at any time.

Mr. Jenner. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. He is—what is his position with the University of Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania Music Department, has he not?

Mrs. Paine. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.

Mr. Jenner. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?

Mrs. Paine. She has a very good command of the language. I think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.

Mr. Jenner. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?

Mrs. Paine. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east.

Mr. Jenner. You mean, summer, not fall.

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that I saw her.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So we are talking about the same trip.

Mrs. Paine. That is the same trip.

Mr. Jenner. You did see her?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. Where in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. At her home.

Mr. Jenner. Where is her home?

Mrs. Paine. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion then to report to her that—about Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an American who is now residing in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and concerned her deeply.

And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt I was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him.

She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me.

Mr. Jenner. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?

Mrs. Paine. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; indeed.

Mr. Jenner. You were there about 3 days?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. And in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about 2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?

Did you say that much to her?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that have I stated the substance in that connection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not.

What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Similar?

Mr. Jenner. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina wished to leave Lee?

Mrs. Paine. No. I would guess that was her interpretation.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say in this connection, please?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say in that connection.

Mrs. Paine. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up to——

Mr. Jenner. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I want.

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.

Mr. Jenner. I am just confining myself to this period. During this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking.

Mrs. Paine. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was more forceful than what I said.

Mr. Jenner. But you did express a negative opinion.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You testified that—are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?

Mrs. Paine. He is my brother.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited there in September of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's husband was a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred to him as a Marxist.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a Communist in your mind?

Mrs. Paine. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt there was a distinction as he——

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist was as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I have no clear impression.

Mr. Jenner. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?

Mrs. Paine. This is not something I ever heard from him.

Mr. Jenner. Was it anything that you ever thought of?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. A concept that you ever had?

Mrs. Paine. In describing Marxism?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was—he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. No; I never did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description?

Mrs. Paine. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that was my impression.

Mr. Jenner. More pure than what?

Mrs. Paine. Than a Communist.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's political views?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution—contributed toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't have that feeling.

Mr. Jenner. You did not.

What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?

Mrs. Paine. All the time I knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties.

Mr. Jenner. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?

Mrs. Paine. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't.

She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.

Mr. Jenner. Have you completed your answer?

Senator Cooper. May I ask a question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background?

Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.

Mr. Jenner. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall her ever saying that.

I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.

Mr. Jenner. That would be hearsay?

Mrs. Paine. That would be hearsay.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?

Do you recall that?

Mrs. Paine. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Mark Lane.

Mrs. Paine. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say to the reporter then?

Mrs. Paine. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described.

The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have—the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.

And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.

Mr. Jenner. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he practiced?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect.

Mr. Jenner. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?

Mrs. Paine. No; I never did.

Mr. Jenner. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?

Mrs. Paine. I think so.

Senator Cooper. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range?

Mrs. Paine. The only thing—well—it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the reporters asked me about it.

Senator Cooper. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the 21st before you got up?

Mrs. Paine. I don't understand the question.

Senator Cooper. The 22d, yes.

Mrs. Paine. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps I will understand it better.

Senator Cooper. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the 22d?

Mrs. Paine. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your return from Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?

Mrs. Paine. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I don't know of any time that they could have.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?

Mrs. Paine. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley would not talk about it.

Mr. Jenner. That was the extent of the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?

Mrs. Paine. I do.

Mr. Jenner. He is an associate of your husband?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?

Mrs. Paine. I could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.

Mr. Jenner. But you could have made that remark to him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You made similar remarks to others?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed, I have.

Mr. Jenner. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia alone?

Mrs. Paine. I very probably did.

Mr. Jenner. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak English?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge that I did.

Mr. Jenner. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Senator Cooper. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a few questions?

Mr. Jenner. Surely.

Senator Cooper. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.

Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in Lee's possession.

What did she say about it?

Mrs. Paine. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not.

Senator Cooper. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. Were you translating?

Mrs. Paine. No, Mr. Mamantov.

Senator Cooper. Were you following what she said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; indeed.

Senator Cooper. How did she designate the sight? What words?

Mrs. Paine. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as I recall.

Senator Cooper. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?

Mrs. Paine. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.

Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun.

Senator Cooper. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't.

Senator Cooper. To you? What?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from Dallas when he would come for his visits?

Mrs. Paine. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he came with Wesley Frazier.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the Depository brought him to the house?

Mrs. Paine. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Except for Wesley; no.

Senator Cooper. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't.

Senator Cooper. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?

Mrs. Paine. I never heard him mention anyone.

Senator Cooper. He never mentioned the name of any person?

Mrs. Paine. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can recall.

Senator Cooper. You said that you told someone that Marina did not agree with his political views?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. How did you know that?

Mrs. Paine. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.

Senator Cooper. That is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them.

Mrs. Paine. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.

Senator Cooper. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if any?

Mrs. Paine. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in politics. She——

Senator Cooper. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such a reference ever.

Senator Cooper. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist or a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. No. I assumed she was not either.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.

Senator Cooper. I missed the early part of your testimony so you may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it was an unusual circumstance which interested you?

Mrs. Paine. It made him an odd person.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious sense of what could have motivated him to do this.

Senator Cooper. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about it, inquire about his experience?

Mrs. Paine. I guess I wasn't interested enough.

Senator Cooper. What led him to do it?

Mrs. Paine. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise as many questions.

Senator Cooper. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his defection and the reasons for returning?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Senator Cooper. And his political views, his economic views, that kind of thing?

Mrs. Paine. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did not.

Senator Cooper. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was a Communist.

Mrs. Paine. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself as a Marxist.

Senator Cooper. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship to communism?

Mrs. Paine. Oh; yes.

Senator Cooper. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party to be a Communist in his views?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being——

Senator Cooper. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.

Senator Cooper. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about that, as being in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.

But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.

Senator Cooper. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in your house?

Mrs. Paine. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.

Senator Cooper. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he received and read.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at your house?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.

Senator Cooper. You said that he did not have very ample means, financial means.

Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers sent to him from Russia, England, New York?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I observed——

Senator Cooper. The Communist Worker comes from New York.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever give them any money?

Mrs. Paine. Cash money; no.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Cash; no.

Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking.

Senator Cooper. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over physical possession of it?

Mrs. Paine. I did not.

Senator Cooper. To either Lee or Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No; not at any time to either one.

Senator Cooper. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. I have just one or two more.

You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough.

I believe you said that.

Mrs. Paine. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the Soviet Union.

Senator Cooper. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian.

Mrs. Paine. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good.

Senator Cooper. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was able to bring his wife.

You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New Orleans——

Mrs. Paine. In this country?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then back to Dallas.

Senator Cooper. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have him in your house?

Mrs. Paine. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier had he not come out on the weekends.

But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such separation, and I didn't feel that this—it was appropriate for him to have to stay away. I did not ask that.

Senator Cooper. Prior to the time that Marina left your home—the day of the assassination, wasn't it?

Mrs. Paine. She left the next day.

Senator Cooper. The next day.

Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves?

Mrs. Paine. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall.

Mr. Jenner. That is the incident in which you——

Mrs. Paine. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Hosty.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous?

Mrs. Paine. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once in relation to myself.

Senator Cooper. What caused that?

Mrs. Paine. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing.

Senator Cooper. What made you think he would be violent about it if he wasn't caring about taking care of her?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only——

Senator Cooper. I can understand why a person might be angry about something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be violent?

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly unpleasant with her.

Senator Cooper. I believe you said the other day in answer to a question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did fire the rifle at the President.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know.

Senator Cooper. From this vantage point, is there anything about him now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy?

Mrs. Paine. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive.

Senator Cooper. In other words, a person's personality, is there anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent?

Mrs. Paine. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to Mrs. Rainey that—and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. Nothing that violent or indeed that insane.

Senator Cooper. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it?

Mrs. Paine. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the shooting of the President.

Senator Cooper. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a deal with Life in order to get money?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes Marguerite had on the subject.

Senator Cooper. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business transaction for your statement or story?

Mrs. Paine. At that time or since?

Senator Cooper. Since.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was written for Look which was not published and will not be.

Senator Cooper. Has that been testified?

Mr. Jenner. Will not be what?

Mrs. Paine. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I have no plans presently, at least.

Senator Cooper. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this assassination?

Mrs. Paine. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain now I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing that, she talked to me.

Mr. Jenner. She approached you on that article?

Mrs. Paine. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided before I was asked. But that is——

Mr. Jenner. Who decided it?

Mrs. Paine. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside.

Mr. Jenner. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview being interviewed?

Mrs. Paine. All I really should say in clarification here is that there was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do it.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator Cooper. Back on the record.

Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any article that you might write or you might assist someone else in writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with this money but perhaps that is not pertinent.

Senator Cooper. If you want to?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I plan to give it away.

Mr. Jenner. You mean give it to charity?

Mrs. Paine. To charity.

Senator Cooper. That is all I have.

Mr. Jenner. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it.

Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in the final form?

You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that article, however, is not one to be published?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you look over that article in this final form and approve it as to text and statements made in it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used.

Mr. Jenner. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the text and statements that are made in there had your approval?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, not. The article was written by?

Mrs. Paine. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from my telling.

Mr. Jenner. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost written?

Mrs. Paine. It is ghost written but most of it is my words.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the document we have just identified.

Senator Cooper. It will be received in evidence.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 460, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has appeared from your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Paine. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Jenner. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might call Communist Party leanings.

Mrs. Paine. No; on the contrary.

Mr. Jenner. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front groups?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been unconsciously a member of any such groups.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to communism?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement of communism as we know and abhor it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is right.

If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered a good end is legitimate.

I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously.

Mr. Jenner. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the Communist faith?

Mrs. Paine. It certainly does.

Mr. Jenner. Or political doctrine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me.

Mr. Jenner. You have an interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in that connection—that episode in your life?

Mrs. Paine. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and say I have been interested in other languages before being interested in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke that language.

Mr. Jenner. That is the Golden Age group of the Young——

Mrs. Paine. Men and Young Women——

Mr. Jenner. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. At that time you were employed by?

Mrs. Paine. That organization.

Mr. Jenner. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection with this plan of Antioch College?

Mrs. Paine. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at Antioch although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting some credit for my job credit, that is.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mrs. Paine. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had been indeed for sometime.

Mr. Jenner. Please fix a little more definite time, please?

Mrs. Paine. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947.

Mr. Jenner. In 1947?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As quite a young girl?

Mrs. Paine. When my interest also began in the Quaker church.

Mr. Jenner. You were then what, you were 19 years old?

Mrs. Paine. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact.

Mr. Jenner. Going on 15?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You were going to high school?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you living then?

Mrs. Paine. I was living in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at least in the Quaker activity?

Mrs. Paine. Both.

Mr. Jenner. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young people's society in Columbus at that time?

Mrs. Paine. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the national young Friends group.

Mr. Jenner. What is the official name of that?

Mrs. Paine. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference of young friends that was held in 1955.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mrs. Paine. At Quaker Haven, Ind.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend that?

Mrs. Paine. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a small committee of interested people, was working on this matter.

Mr. Jenner. Are these interested young people?

Mrs. Paine. These are all young Friends.

Mr. Jenner. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23?

Senator Cooper. 9 years ago?

Mrs. Paine. 22, going on 23, that is right.

Mr. Jenner. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Vacation period?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of what?

Mrs. Paine. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association which is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged.

Mr. Jenner. Your Quaker meeting?

Mrs. Paine. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at Quaker Haven in 1955?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference.

Mr. Jenner. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling?

Mrs. Paine. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was not available among most young people, and even among older people in the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language itself. Shall I describe what training I have had?

Mr. Jenner. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence.

The Chairman. It is received.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in America and young people in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mrs. Paine. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.

Mr. Jenner. Were you the leader of that committee?

Mrs. Paine. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which found pen pals for these young Americans.

We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.

Mr. Jenner. Were you active in that group?

Mrs. Paine. I was chairman of that for sometime.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?

Mrs. Paine. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.

Mr. Jenner. If you once had it?

Mrs. Paine. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up to last spring, I would say, and I haven't—yes; and I haven't heard anything from her for about a year.

Mr. Jenner. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter?

Mrs. Paine. We discussed?

Mr. Jenner. In this letter period?

Mrs. Paine. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the time of our correspondence.

Mr. Jenner. Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; of course.

Mr. Jenner. Russian citizen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of language study aid.

My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, probably a year ago that came.

Mr. Jenner. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.

Mr. Jenner. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them?

Mrs. Paine. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Were a number of other people present?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the only contact you had with them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure propaganda.

Mr. Jenner. He sought to report what his experiences here were in America?

Mrs. Paine. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve.

Mr. Jenner. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read?

Mrs. Paine. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair.

Mr. Jenner. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?

Mrs. Paine. Misrepresented America, certainly.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.

Mr. Jenner. What year did you say that was?

Mrs. Paine. I believe that was 1957.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course.

I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. This was very valuable though very difficult.

Mr. Jenner. Who was your instructor?

Mrs. Paine. There?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.

Mr. Jenner. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your instructors at Middlebury?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the name of any other?

Mrs. Paine. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a roommate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. What was your roommate's name?

Mrs. Paine. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you still have contact with her?

Mrs. Paine. It has been a long time since I have written but we have exchanged Christmas cards.

Mr. Jenner. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where does she live?

Mrs. Paine. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did she at one time live in New York City?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New York.

Mr. Jenner. Her mother is?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.

Mr. Jenner. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a connection with an established institution?

Mrs. Paine. It began in connection with an established institution during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks School during that quarter or summer term?

Mrs. Paine. Summer term.

Mr. Jenner. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Who is your student?

Mrs. Paine. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. Jenner. Is he, what is he, a young man?

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. Jenner. How old is he?

Mrs. Paine. He turned 15 in the summer.

Mr. Jenner. Is he a native American so far as you know?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I know, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your—has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would like to do that.

Mr. Jenner. That is still your hope and desire?

Mrs. Paine. It interests me very much.

Mr. Jenner. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring?

Mrs. Paine. There are a few small items I hope we will get into tomorrow.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. Would they take very long for you to state?

Mrs. Paine. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a little bit, your voice has been dropping.

Mrs. Paine. I am tired.

I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is probably no use to you.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. Paine. That is what you call it, all right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Give the exhibit.

Mrs. Paine. It is Exhibit No. 103.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.

Mrs. Paine. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?

Mrs. Paine. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.

Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer them.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?

Mrs. Paine. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.

And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.

Mr. Jenner. That was 1962?

Mrs. Paine. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.

My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.

Mr. Jenner. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Has he always been?

Mrs. Paine. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.

Mr. Jenner. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?

Mrs. Paine. We have not.

Mr. Jenner. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband has returned to your home?

Mrs. Paine. He is living there now.

Mr. Jenner. How long has that been?

Mrs. Paine. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say this is a reconciliation?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say that.

Mr. Jenner. You cannot.

Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?

Mrs. Paine. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any others?

Mrs. Paine. I can think of nothing else.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?

Mrs. Paine. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.

Mr. Jenner. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, that is right, we did.

Mr. Jenner. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.

Mr. Jenner. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.

Mr. Jenner. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.

Senator Cooper. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to——

Mr. Jenner. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.

More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.

Mrs. Paine. One of which we took care of already.

Mr. Jenner. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.

I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.

Senator Cooper. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.

Mrs. Paine. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.

Mr. Jenner. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.

Senator Cooper. Are there any further questions?

Mr. Jenner. That is all. Thank you, sir.

Senator Cooper. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.

(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.)