TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER (continued 2)

Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone?

Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs.

Senator Cooper. I am aware of that.

Mr. Baker. I was still looking.

Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator.

Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.

Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?

Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody.

Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone?

Mr. Baker. No, sir.

Senator Cooper. When you looked?

Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up.

Senator Cooper. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really didn't see nothing in the windows.

Senator Cooper. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of his testimony.

Mr. Dulles. Go ahead.

Senator Cooper. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up.

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?

Mr. Baker. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off, and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.

Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing north in the street.

Senator Cooper. Which way were the pigeons going?

Mr. Baker. They were just coming up, you know.

Senator Cooper. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; I try to be.

Senator Cooper. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush.

Senator Cooper. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?

Mr. Baker. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.

Senator Cooper. Could you see the railroad yards?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; I could see it—this track ran under this triple underpass to my left, all out behind this building.

Senator Cooper. Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than——

Mr. Baker. Nothing except——

Senator Cooper. Crowd?

Mr. Baker. There were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up.

Senator Cooper. Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in?

Mr. Baker. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and Officer J. W. Williams was——

Mr. Dulles. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. Baker. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went.

Senator Cooper. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland.

Mr. Dulles. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers?

Mr. Baker. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him.

Mr. Belin. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not?

Mr. Baker. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.

Mr. Belin. All right.

You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting?

Mr. Baker. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.

Mr. Belin. Is it a rifle?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Automatic or bolt action?

Mr. Baker. Bolt action.

Mr. Belin. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?

Mr. Baker. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.

Mr. Belin. Have you had much experience to go hunting?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Every year.

Mr. Belin. Every year you go deer hunting?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?

Mr. Baker. That is right, sir.

Mr. Belin. From other rifles?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Belin. In what way did it influence them?

Mr. Baker. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.

Senator Cooper. How long have you been firing a rifle?

Mr. Baker. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.

Senator Cooper. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

Senator Cooper. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Baker. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

Senator Cooper. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. Baker. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.

Senator Cooper. What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle?

Mr. Baker. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be—I have heard that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them.

Mr. Belin. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?

Mr. Baker. I would say they was from the same rifle.

Mr. Belin. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?

Mr. Baker. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time.

Mr. Belin. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Belin. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?

Mr. Baker. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be—I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart.

Mr. Dulles. Over what?

Mr. Baker. Three seconds apart.

Mr. Belin. From each shot?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. You are saying not over 3 seconds?

Mr. Baker. Not over 3 seconds.

Mr. Dulles. Any further questions?

Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)