Sunday, September 6, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED (continued 2)

*Mrs. Oswald (examining instrument mentioned). I recognize only my husband.

Mr. Rankin. Is your husband the man with the marks that sort of look like a "T" in light green?*

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I ask you if you recognize anyone besides your husband in Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?*

Mrs. Oswald. No. *No. [Examining instrument mentioned.] No.

Mr. Rankin. But you do recognize your husband there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—yes.

Mr. Rankin. He has a green mark over his photograph, does he not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband consulted any attorneys in New Orleans while he was there?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know about this.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of a Clay Bertrand, [spelling] B-e-r-t-r-a-n-d?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever say anything about consulting an attorney about his discharge from the Marines or about his American citizenship?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. He did not.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband was in Dallas in September between the 23d, the date that you left with Mrs. Paine, and the 26th of September—at any time?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything about anything like that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know a Sylvia Odio, [spelling] O-d-i-o?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You never heard of her?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Sylvia Odio is a woman in Dallas who said that your husband, along with two Cubans, came to see her under the name "Leon Oswald," on the evening of the 25th or the 26th of September 1963. Do you know anything about that?*

**Mrs. Oswald. No; I do not know about this.

Mr. Rankin. Have you ever heard of her?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever hear of a person by the name of Rodriguez [Spelling] R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z, that your husband was said to have known in New Orleans, while you were there? Do you know whether your husband ever knew a Rodriguez [spelling] R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z in New Orleans?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He may have known him, but I don't know anything about it.

Mr. Rankin. He never told you that he knew anyone like that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No; he did not tell me.

Mr. Rankin. When you lived in New Orleans and after your husband lost his job, did he stay away from home in the evenings much?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He was not at home during the day time, but he was at home most of the time in the evenings.

Mr. Rankin. And by being at home in the evenings, what time do you mean—from 6 o'clock on, or 7 o'clock, or what time?*

*Mrs. Oswald. After 7.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever show signs of having been drinking or being drunk when he came home?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Never.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever talk about having seen some friends or some Cubans or Mexicans in the bar or some bar in New Orleans?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. No; it's strange for me to hear that Lee visited bars or that he drank.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know of his drinking at all in New Orleans?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I never did.

Mr. Rankin. He was arrested in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba matter around August 9, if you will recall. You may not remember the exact date, but I refresh your memory and call your attention to the fact that it was that date—August 9?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I know about this.

Mr. Rankin. How did that come to your attention, how did you learn about it?*

*Mrs. Oswald. That night I waited for him until 3 o'clock in the morning. Then, I went to bed. When he came in the morning, I asked him where he had been and he told me he was arrested by the police.

Mr. Rankin. Had he stayed out all night that way before?* **

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. It hadn't ever happened before?**

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You say it never happened that he would even stay out late in the evening?*

Mrs. Oswald. No; sometimes he was delayed, but he would be home by 9 o'clock.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever hear your husband say anything about being associated with any pro-Castro or anti-Castro groups in Dallas?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know that he belonged to any organization in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know of any such associations or any associations with Cubans after he returned from Mexico City?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know about this.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever mention Sylvia Odio to you or any name like that, that you recall?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Now, when you testified before the Commission before, you were asked what kind of a job your husband had at the Minsk factory, do you recall that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You said he read blueprints and translated them into the finished product. Do you remember your husband saying anything like that to you?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. I don't think I testified to that.

Mr. Rankin. You don't recall testifying to that?*

Mrs. Oswald. I testified that he was a—slesar.

Mr. Gregory. Off the record, please?

She names a trade and that Russian word stands for locksmith, but I know that he was not a locksmith, I mean, from the description of work that he was doing. He was working at a factory where he was assembling details for—metallic details. He was a machinist apprentice working on parts for radio receivers.

Mr. Rankin. He told the FBI at one time in one of the interviews that he was busy reading blueprints and translating them.

Mr. Gregory, are you telling me what she says his job was or are you telling me what you know?

Mr. Gregory. No; she's telling me, but Mrs. Oswald tells me that the technical name of his job was the Russian word (spelling) s-l-e-s-a-r'.

Mr. Rankin. Now, will you describe, Mrs. Oswald, what he did in that job so it will be clearer than just that word. Tell us what he did?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I have never been at the plant where Lee worked or in any factory, but from the description that Lee gave me——

Mr. Rankin. Tell us that?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. He was grinding details—detailed parts for small parts, small metallic parts for radio receivers, on a lathe.

Perhaps he was boasting about the importance of his work when he told you about reading the blueprints and translating them into the finished product. He may have actually done that kind of work, but I know nothing about that.

Mr. Rankin. Was the only work that he told you he was doing during the period that you were there in Minsk, this job of grinding these parts on the lathe?*

*Mrs. Oswald. While he and I lived together—yes. That was the kind of work that he was doing in Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. And that's all that you know of?*

*Mrs. Oswald. That's all I know about his work.

Mr. Rankin. Now, turning to the period that your husband was in Moscow in 1959 when he first came there, and, of course, you were married later than that, did he tell you about his experiences when he first came to Moscow?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He told me that for the most part he visited museums and studied the Russian language.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about the intourist guides, the women studied the Russian language.

Mrs. Oswald. The Russian guides?

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you about any of the others that he knew there?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He did, but I don't remember their names, except Rimma. The only reason I remember Rimma Sherikova is because she visited us in Minsk. She did not come especially to see us, but she was passing through Minsk and stopped to see us.

Mr. Rankin. What did your husband tell you about Rimma?*

*Mrs. Oswald. That she was a very fine, pretty, smart young girl, and unfortunately, older than he is, and that she helped him a great deal.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you how she helped him?*

*Mrs. Oswald. First of all, as an interpreter.

Mr. Rankin. What else?

*Mrs. Oswald. And that he spent time with her and did not feel lonesome.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about Rimma or the other intourist guides helping him with learning Russian?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Yes; he did.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say how much they did that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No; he did not.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about the guides helping him in dealing with the Embassy about his citizenship or giving up his citizenship?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. No; he did not tell me about that.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about the guides giving him any financial help?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No; he did not tell me.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything about when he learned that he might be able to stay in Russia, how he learned it?

*Mrs. Oswald. No; he did not. He, Lee, took part in radio broadcasts, propaganda in favor of the Soviet Union, which he felt helped him to get permission to stay in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say when he did that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. That was before my time.

Mr. Rankin. How did you learn about it?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He told me about it. Lee told me that the Soviet Union offered him Soviet citizenship, but he turned it down. He told me that he turned it down. At the same time, other developments as I recall, left the impression with me that he actually wanted to become a Soviet citizen, but I didn't connect the two. There is a discrepancy between the two, but at the time, I couldn't reconcile these apparent differences in what he said.

Mr. Rankin. You know he told the reporters that he talked to in Moscow in November, that the Government was going to let him stay, but his diary says he didn't get that word until January the 4th of the following year. Now, do you know anything about that, how that happened?*

Mrs. Oswald. 1960?

Mr. Rankin. 1959 in November is when he told the reporters, and it was January 4, 1960, that he actually put it in his diary that he had the first learning of it?*

Mrs. Oswald. That they would let him stay in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. Newspaper reporters?

Mr. Rankin. Yes; newspaper reporters—Miss Johnson and Miss Mosby.*

*Mrs. Oswald. He made the entry into his diary, I think, at a later date, and they may not be correct or precise—just one.

Mr. Gregory. I think she's a little tired. She's saying many words, but I can't connect them. She says, "To be brief, I don't believe I know."

Mr. Rankin. We will soon be through, Mrs. Oswald. There are just a few more questions.*

When your husband said that he had spoken over the radio and he thought that helped him, did he tell you what he said over the radio?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. He spoke over the radio of how everything—how wonderful everything was in the Soviet Union, or what he thought they liked to hear.

Mr. Rankin. And did you understand that he spoke that in Moscow while he was there?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Yes; while he was in Moscow.

Mr. Rankin. That was during the period after he had first come to the country and before he came to Minsk, is that right?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you recall any more than you have told us about the time you had the interview with the MVD about your visa—what they said to you and what you said to them?*

*Mrs. Oswald. First of all, Colonel Aksenov asked me why I wanted to go to America, "Is it so bad here that you want to leave?" And I replied that I wanted to go to America with my husband and that I believe that I have that right.

Mr. Rankin. What did they say to that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Then he said, "You will simply have to wait because you are not the only one who wants to leave. You will have to wait your turn."

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything else that was said at that time?*

*Mrs. Oswald. At that time I was pregnant and Colonel Aksenov suggested that may be it would be better for me to wait until the baby came.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I told him that I would prefer to leave as soon as possible.

Mr. Rankin. Is that all you remember of the conversation?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Nothing of importance.

Mr. Rankin. Where did this conversation occur?*

*Mrs. Oswald. In the MVD building in Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. And who was present besides you and Colonel Aksenov?*

Mrs. Oswald. At first there were two military men who later left, and they accompanied me or rather they showed me to the room where Colonel Aksenov was. We were the only two in the room.

Mr. Rankin. Now, your husband said that before you both left for the United States, he had an interview with the MVD. Do you recall that?*

Mrs. Oswald. Before we left where?

Mr. Rankin. Before you left the Soviet Union?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know about this.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything like that while you were in Moscow before you left for the United States?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You were never told about anything like that by your husband?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. By anyone else?*

Mrs. Oswald. Nobody.

Mr. Rankin. You were not present at any such meeting?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any meeting of that kind in Minsk?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He never told me that he had interviews.

Mr. Rankin. He said he quarreled with them trying to expedite the visas, the exit permits, and where was that?*

*Mrs. Oswald. In Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. And did he tell you whom he talked to when he quarreled with them about the exit visas?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know their names, but all the people that were empowered with issuance of the exit permits.

Mr. Rankin. Was that the time that you said he tried to get to see Colonel Aksenov and they wouldn't let him?* **

Mrs. Oswald. It could have happened before we moved because he apparently had a conversation with the Colonel.**

**I remember it was cold.

Mr. Gregory. May I ask Marina—will you mind to read the question?

The Reporter. "Was that the time that you said he tried to get to see Colonel Aksenov and they wouldn't let him?"

Mr. Rankin. I was asking about the meeting with the MVD.

Mr. Gregory. Lee meeting with the MVD in Minsk?

Mr. Rankin. Yes—about the exit visas.

Mr. Gregory. And you wanted to know the year and the month of the year?

Mr. Rankin. No; I was first trying to find out what meeting she was talking about and whether it was the one she referred to later.

Mr. Gregory. When she could not get the audience with the man?

Mr. Rankin. That's right.* **

*Mrs. Oswald. It was approximately in January 1962.

Mr. Rankin. And did he tell you what happened at that meeting?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He did not meet with—he did not get to see Colonel Aksenov.

Mr. Rankin. But he did see someone else in there?

*Mrs. Oswald. Apparently he talked to someone who substituted or was inferior to Colonel Aksenov.

Mr. Rankin. And what did he tell you happened at that time?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Lee told me that when he came to MVD he asked to see Colonel Aksenov, and the people in the office asked him the nature of the business he wanted to discuss with him, and he told them that it was about exit visas, and they told him that he could not see Aksenov, but that they, whoever "they" were, were empowered to act on that question, but he insisted on seeing the colonel, and he did not get to see him.

Mr. Rankin. Then what happened?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Then he came home—then I went to MVD, then he sent me to MVD. I said, "I don't want to go there and he said, "I insist." Then, I was afraid to go there, but I did go, and the Colonel did not eat me up.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk to the colonel about both your visa and your husband's at that time?*

Mrs. Oswald. The conversation with Colonel Aksenov was to find out why the delay in the issuance of the exit permits.

Mr. Rankin. That's all I have.

Senator Cooper. There has been a good deal of testimony that you and your husband were good friends with the De Mohrenschildt family?*

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Is it correct that when he came to your house on one occasion that he saw the rifle, your husband's rifle?*

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know about this. It is possible that I have shown the rifle to them.

Senator Cooper. Do you remember when Mr. De Mohrenschildt said something like this after the Walker incident: "How could you miss it?" or something like that.*

*Mrs. Oswald. De Mohrenschildt—as soon as he opened the door, he said to Lee, "How could you have missed, how could you have missed him?"

Senator Cooper. Do you have any explanation for that?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know whether Lee told De Mohrenschildt about shooting at Walker, and then Lee looked at me thinking—whether I told De Mohrenschildt about it—I don't know. He even couldn't speak that evening. Lee could not speak that evening. We were on the porch.

Senator Cooper. Did he later ask you if you had told De Mohrenschildt?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He asked me if I told De Mohrenschildt about it and when I said I didn't, he said, "How did he guess it?"

Mr. Gopadze. No; she said, "Maybe you have told him."

*Mrs. Oswald. Then he said, "Maybe you've told him about it", and then he added—he said, "How did he guess it?"

Senator Cooper. De Mohrenschildt said he had lived in Minsk, did he ever talk to you about Minsk?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. Yes; he did say he lived in Minsk when he was a small child.

Senator Cooper. You said also you heard them talking on occasions, that is, you heard Lee Oswald and De Mohrenschildt talking about Russia, did you hear them talking about political problems, political affiliations?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Yes; they discussed politics.

Senator Cooper. Was De Mohrenschildt living in Dallas at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He lived in Haiti.

Mr. Gopadze. Do you know if he was in Haiti?

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know whether he lived in Dallas at the time of the assassination or whether he lived in Haiti.

Senator Cooper. Could you think back, Mrs. Oswald, is there any fact which comes to your mind which would lead you to believe that any person or persons were associated with your husband in any plan to assassinate President Kennedy, or you thought, Governor Connally?*

*Mrs. Oswald. Of course, I don't know anything about it.

Senator Cooper. But my question was—not whether you knew. I asked you whether you had any facts which would lead you to believe that there was anyone?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. I do not know about this.

Senator Cooper. One other question. Did Lee Oswald ever say to you that he had any kind of connection with the Cuban Government or any of its agents?*

*Mrs. Oswald. He did not tell me.

Senator Cooper. I said one more, and this is the last one, I promise you.

Once you said that when you went to New Orleans together, he said something like this: "I'm lost." If that's correct, what was he talking about? Do you remember that?* **

*Mrs. Oswald. On that particular occasion he sat by the icebox or the frigidaire and he sat there and he had his head in his hands and he said, "I am lost." I believe that that was the result of all the failures of his.

Senator Cooper. Did you feel sympathy for him and love for him in those days?*

Mrs. Oswald. Yes; I felt sorry for him. I knew it was difficult for him with his family. I felt sorry for him.

Senator Cooper. All right.

Senator Russell. When you testified the second time in Washington, Mrs. Oswald, that you didn't think Mr. De Mohrenschildt was as dangerous as he sounds—that was your personal opinion—what did you mean by that?*

Here it is: "Mr. Mohrenschildt once took us out to the Fords' house. It was at New Year's, I think—Katya Ford's house. It was either Christmas or New Year's. I don't think Mr. De Mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. That's my personal opinion."

No one had said anything about him being dangerous, so why was that your opinion?** *

Mr. Gregory. Off the record.

Senator Russell. She understood that.

Mr. Gregory. This goes into the record, of course?

Senator Russell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Gregory. I think she's hesitated——

Senator Russell. I think she should explain it.

*Mrs. Oswald. George is such a big mouth.

Senator Russell. Let's let her testify, if you don't mind?

Mr. Gregory. I'm translating what she said.

Senator Russell. Oh, is that what she said? I see. I'm sorry. I'm sorry—I didn't hear it.

*Mrs. Oswald. George is such a loud mouth or big talker——

Senator Russell. Big talker—that would be the equivalent, I'm sure.

*Mrs. Oswald. I simply do not believe that—it is my intuition——

Mr. Gopadze. No; that point?

*Mrs. Oswald. It is my opinion that people that talk too much do little.

Senator Russell. And did he talk too much or talk very loud? I don't know Mr. De Mohrenschildt.** *

Mrs. Oswald. Very loud.

*He jokes all the time and people don't know when he talks sense and when he jokes.

**Sometimes he would say something jokingly and people would think that he's telling the truth.

Senator Russell. Was that boasting about some imaginary achievement of his?*

*Mrs. Oswald. It's simply his manner of speaking—of talking. It's his character.

Senator Russell. He didn't talk then about his feats of any kind, about performing any great feats?*

*Mrs. Oswald. No; he never did.

Senator Russell. It was merely his tone of voice and his manner of expression that made him sound dangerous?**

**Mrs. Oswald. He was boasting about it, but he never would follow through.

Mr. Rankin. You might tell the full story.

Mrs. Oswald. Quite often he would be boasting about something big but he never did follow through.

Senator Russell. So he did talk about great achievements most of the time?*

**Mrs. Oswald. Just like a fellow who is just a happy go-around man, a happy go-lucky man.

Senator Russell. If there is nothing further, the Commission thanks you very much for your assistance, and you, Mr. Gregory, and above all, the very remarkable reporter who has been able to stay with us from the beginning.

The Commission will now recess subject to the call of the Chairman or Chief Justice Warren.

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you very much.

Senator Russell. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 8 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)