Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF BERNARD WILLIAM WEISSMAN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:45 p.m.

(The Chairman and Mr. Dulles being present.)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. You may proceed.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. Mr. Chief Justice.

Whereupon, Bernard Weissman was recalled as a witness and having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, during the luncheon hour Mr. Weissman has afforded us an opportunity to examine some of this correspondence, to which he made reference this morning. I have selected a few of these pieces of correspondence as rounding out the genesis of CUSA and its affiliate, AMBUS, and the infiltration of the rightist organizations in Dallas that the witness described.

I will identify these without reading from them, as some of them are rather lengthy.

The Chairman. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. First, Mr. Weissman, I have a letter on the letterhead of National Indignation Convention, the top of which has scrawled in ink longhand "Top Secret." It is a five-page longhand letter. At the bottom of each is written the word "Destroy." I have marked an envelope postmarked Dallas, Tex., on November 5, 1962 as Commission Exhibit No. 1048, the first exhibit being identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1047.

(The documents referred to were marked respectively Commission Exhibits Nos. 1047 and 1048 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The envelope is addressed to SP-4 Larry Jones, APO Station 407, New York, N.Y.

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize the handwriting on the envelope?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; that is Larrie's.

Mr. Jenner. And the Larry Jones is the man to whom you made reference in your testimony?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The document Commission Exhibit No. 1047, do you recognize that handwriting?

Mr. Weissman. It appears to be Larrie's.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize it?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was document Commission Exhibit No. 1047, enclosed in the envelope marked Commission Exhibit No. 1048?

Mr. Dulles. Is there any signature on those documents?

Mr. Weissman. This page should be last.

Mr. Jenner. On the page which is marked with a circle 7, there appears to be a signature L-a-r-r-i-e. Do you recognize that signature?

Mr. Weissman. That is Larrie Schmidt's signature.

Mr. Jenner. How did you come into possession of the documents now identified, one of which was addressed to Larry Jones rather than you?

Mr. Weissman. Larry Jones gave it to me.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mr. Weissman. In Munich, Germany.

Mr. Jenner. And when he handed the document to you was Exhibit No. 1047 enclosed in Exhibit No. 1048?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next is a three-page letter dated Dallas, Tex., January 4, 1963, typewritten, addressed to "Dear Bernie." Is that you?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1040.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1040 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. It is signed in typing "Larrie."

A document of five pages marked Commission Exhibit No. 1041 on the first page of which appears the signature Larrie H. Schmidt.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1041 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize that signature?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Whose is it?

Mr. Weissman. Larrie Schmidt's.

Mr. Jenner. The last of this series of letter-sized papers is a five-page document titled "A Code of Conduct for Members of Conservatism U.S.A." which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1042.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1042 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. I understand that these three documents that I have now identified were enclosed in an envelope which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1043, in the upper left-hand corner, L. H. Schmidt, 5417b Lewis Street, Dallas 6, Tex., addressed to Private First Class Bernie Weissman. Is that you?

Mr. Weissman. That is me.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1043 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. That is postmarked Dallas, January 4, 1963.

Did you receive the documents, now identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1040, 1041, 1042, and 1043?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Were the first of those three—were the first three of those exhibits I have named enclosed in the document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1043?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I have already identified the signature.

These documents relate to the development of and plans for CUSA, do they not?

Mr. Weissman. They do.

Mr. Jenner. And the conduct of CUSA?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next two documents, a three-page letter typed on the top "Headquarters Conservatism U.S.A.," dated February 2, 1963, at Dallas, Tex., 5417b Lewis Street, which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1049.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1049 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. This is addressed "To All Members." It is signed in typing "Sincerely, Larrie." Have you seen that document before?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And was it enclosed in an envelope?

Mr. Weissman. It was.

Mr. Jenner. Was it sent to you?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Is that document the envelope Commission Exhibit No. 1050?

Mr. Weissman. That is right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1050 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. There is handwriting on the face of Exhibit No. 1050. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Weissman. That is mine.

Mr. Jenner. Read it.

Mr. Weissman. "Meeting with Bob Morris. Infiltration of YAF by CUSA."

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, the three-page document relates to a meeting held in the home of Dr. Morris. Is that Dr. Robert Morris?

Mr. Weissman. That is right, of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Which recounts the plans for infiltration of conservative groups in Dallas, Tex., upon which the witness has somewhat expanded in his testimony this morning.

Mr. Dulles. Has the witness indicated who Mr. Bob Morris was? I don't recall that.

Mr. Weissman. Bob Morris at that time was president of the Defenders of American Liberties in Dallas, Tex., and recently was a candidate for political office in Dallas.

Mr. Dulles. What office?

Mr. Weissman. I believe he was running in the primary for Senator.

Mr. Jenner. U.S. Senate.

Mr. Weissman. U.S. Senator.

Mr. Jenner. I just want to be sure I have covered this. You received both of the documents now marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 1050 and 1049 in due course through the U.S. mail at your station in Munich, Germany?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. The next series is—consists of a two-page letter which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1044, addressed to "Dear Bernie" at Dallas, Tex., on June 13, 1963, also signed in typing "Best, Larrie." That is again Larrie Schmidt, is it?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1044 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. That document was enclosed in what?

Mr. Weissman. In this envelope here.

Mr. Jenner. And the envelope is marked Commission Exhibit No. 1046?

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1046 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. For the purposes of the record, Commission Exhibit No. 1046 is an envelope postmarked at Dallas, Tex., on June 14, 1963. The envelope is imprinted with "Young Americans for Freedom. Inc., Southwestern U.S. Regional Headquarters, P.O. Box 2364, Dallas 21, Texas," and addressed to Pfc. Bernie Weissman. That is you?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything else enclosed in an envelope?

Mr. Weissman. I believe it was this.

Mr. Jenner. A newspaper clipping from the Dallas Morning News which has been marked and identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1045. Is that right?

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1045 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The caption of this reads "Panel Reports Birch Society Dedicated But Not Dangerous."

Those three documents were received by you from Larrie Schmidt?

Mr. Weissman. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The third from the last of this series, a letter dated at Dallas, Tex., June 2, 1963, addressed to "Dear Bernie," Commission Exhibit No. 1037. Also in typing "Larrie." Who is that?

Mr. Weissman. Larrie Schmidt.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. There is some handwriting at the bottom of that letter—do you recognize it?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; that is Larrie Schmidt's.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive that document?

Mr. Weissman. I did.

Mr. Jenner. And was the handwriting on the document when you received it?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Was it enclosed in an envelope?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. You received the mail, then.

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the envelope I now show you marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037-A?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037-A for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Addressed to you. Was there something further enclosed with those?

Mr. Weissman. I think this piece.

Mr. Jenner. Which is Commission Exhibit No. 1037-B.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1037-B for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. This is a handbill of Young Americans For Freedom, Inc.

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. You received all three documents I have now identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1037, 1037-A, and 1037-B in due course through the U.S. mail.

Mr. Weissman. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Next to the last of this series is a letter, single page marked Commission Exhibit No. 1038, dated June 26, 1963, at Dallas, Tex., addressed to "Dear Bernie" signed again in typewriting as "Larrie." Have you seen that document before?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first see it?

Mr. Weissman. When I received it in the mail.

Mr. Jenner. I show you an envelope marked Commission Exhibit No. 1038-A.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1038-A for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Is that envelope the envelope in which Commission Exhibit No. 1038 was enclosed?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; and as a reference, the handwriting on the outside of these envelopes on this and the other exhibits that refer to the contents were put on by me about a week ago, so I could identify it.

Mr. Jenner. Please read what you have written on the face of Commission Exhibit No. 1038-A.

Mr. Weissman. "Ready to take over YAF. Jones in Dallas. Ducharme Club."

Mr. Jenner. And that Ducharme Club is the club, the private club, semi-private club in Dallas that you mentioned in your testimony this morning.

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Lastly, a single-page exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 1039, dated at Munich, Germany, on July 31, 1963.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1039 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. This purports to be a copy of a letter apparently from you to Larrie Schmidt, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And this is a carbon copy of the actual letter?

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you mail the original of this?

Mr. Weissman. I did.

Mr. Jenner. To whom?

Mr. Weissman. Larrie Schmidt.

Mr. Jenner. On or about the date this letter bears?

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

Mr. Dulles. What date is that?

Mr. Jenner. July 21, 1963.

On Commission Exhibit No. 1043, which is the envelope which enclosed several other exhibits, there is some handwriting. It that yours?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read it.

Mr. Weissman. "Membership List 1962. Code of Conduct and Introduction to CUSA. Ultimatum."

Mr. Jenner. And that is a shorthand description or summary of the contents of the envelope?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On Commission Exhibit No. 1048, which is also an envelope, there appears to be written on the face "NIC Infiltration." Whose handwriting it that?

Mr. Weissman. That's mine.

Mr. Jenner. And you put it on there under the circumstances you have now related?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Weissman, I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 996. Have you ever seen a counterpart of that exhibit which is entitled "Wanted for Treason"?

Mr. Weissman. Never directly.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about your first acquaintance with that, with the circumstances, if you know, of how it came into existence, and who had anything to do with it.

Mr. Weissman. Well, I can only go by hearsay on this—what I have seen and what I have heard from other individuals.

Mr. Jenner. Did this come to your attention before November 22, 1963, or after?

Mr. Weissman. After.

Mr. Jenner. Tell what you know, please.

Mr. Weissman. I had heard that these handbills were distributed somewhere in North Dallas, I believe, on the university campus I believe it was, the University of Dallas campus.

Mr. Jenner. From what source did you hear this?

Mr. Weissman. Now, I think it was—I am not sure—I think it might have been Larrie or his brother Bob. I am not sure. Larrie declaimed any knowledge of this. I know he had nothing to do with this particular handbill.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that?

Mr. Weissman. He would have told me.

Mr. Jenner. That's the basis for your supposition?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; and I saw this handbill, or something similar to it, in the back of a station wagon used by Larrie's brother Bob in transporting——

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mr. Weissman. This was several days after the assassination. There was one crumpled up in the back. And I happened to look through the window and see it. This was in front of the Ducharme Club, as a matter of fact. It was one night. And I saw this. And I saw something "Treason"—I had heard about the handbills.

Mr. Jenner. From whom?

Mr. Weissman. Excuse me?

Mr. Jenner. From whom, sir?

Mr. Weissman. I think it was Larrie. I cannot be hundred percent sure. I did not take too much interest in it at the time. But in any case, I did see something resembling this, only it seemed to be a larger picture of President Kennedy. But in any case, it was in the back of a station wagon owned by General Walker, Edwin Walker, or by what—if incorporated, by the corporation he is with, chairman of.

Mr. Jenner. How did you know that?

Mr. Weissman. Well, I know that Bob was General Walker's chauffeur, and by seeing this crumpled up in the back, behind the front seat on the floor of the car, I naturally assumed that it had something to do with General Walker. Exactly what or how, or if he had distributed it, I have no idea. I do not have the faintest idea. I did not go into it any further, because I felt that everything was past, and I was leaving Dallas anyway. I had made up my mind.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. When you say you had heard about this matter, that is the handbill, or handbill similar to it, had you heard about that before November 22, 1963?

Mr. Weissman. Not to my recollection, no.

Mr. Jenner. Shortly after that?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And before you left Dallas?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have anything to do with the bringing into existence of this or similar handbills?

Mr. Weissman. None; none whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Other than the possibility of Bob Schmidt having something to do with them under the circumstances you have related, did any others of your group have anything to do with creating this type of literature and distribution of handbills?

Mr. Weissman. None that I know of.

The Chairman. How about the names of those people who were in on it?

Mr. Jenner. On the handbill?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become acquainted at any time with Robert A. Surrey?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. With Robert G. Klause?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. With J. T. Monk?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become acquainted at any time with the Johnson Printing Co.?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any materials printed—and when I say you, I mean you or your group—while you were in Dallas?

Mr. Weissman. Not that I know of. I personally have no knowledge of anything being printed.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear of the Lettercraft Printing Co.?

Mr. Weissman. No; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear of Ashland Frederick Birchwell?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or have any contact with him?

Mr. Weissman. Not that I know of. I guess I must have met two or three dozen people. For example, when we went up to Joe Grinnan's office at various times, we would come down and eat in the cafeteria, and there would be somebody sitting with him, and there would be introductions. I never remembered their names, because it was just in passing. I never had any personal contact, really.

Mr. Jenner. Did you meet General Walker at any time while you were in Dallas?

Mr. Weissman. Never did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you meet anybody or know anybody by the name of Mercer?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. While you were in Dallas—Mrs. Clifford or Dorothy Mercer?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or Mr. Clifford Mercer?

Mr. Weissman. Definitely not.

Mr. Jenner. Among the exhibits we have identified this afternoon is a list of members. Those were the members of CUSA as of that particular time?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the changes in membership you have recounted in your testimony this morning, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; I am sorry—I knew I had left something out of one of those. I do not know which exhibit is. But it is the one that says——

Mr. Jenner. I will hand them back to you, and you can tell me.

You now have in your hand a sheet of paper.

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that sheet of paper came from one of the envelopes we have already marked?

Mr. Weissman. This one here.

Mr. Jenner. The answer is yes?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I will mark this sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 1051.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1051 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us in what envelope Commission Exhibit No. 1051 was enclosed?

Mr. Weissman. Commission Exhibit No. 1043.

Mr. Jenner. And what is Commission Exhibit No. 1051?

Mr. Weissman. Commission Exhibit No. 1051 was a current membership list as of about January 4, 1963. If you like, I can go over this and tell you who was in no way really associated with it at the time or active.

Mr. Dulles. Membership in CUSA?

Mr. Weissman. In CUSA, yes. It lists Larrie Schmidt, Larry C. Jones, Bernie Weissman, Norman Baker, James Moseley as partners. Members as Ken Glazbrook, Bob Weiss, who was not active after about—at about the time this was printed—these men dropped from the active list. Herb Starr was not active. Chuck McLain was not active. Richard Harsch was not active. Hank Tanaro was not active. Sheila McDonald was not active. And the rest of the list were active in one form or another—some to a much lesser degree than the others.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the 50-odd responses that you received to Commission Exhibit No. 1031, when you went to the post office box on the following Sunday, the 24th of November 1963, did you recognize the names of any of the persons who responded?

Mr. Weissman. None—none at all.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any response from Jack Ruby?

Mr. Weissman. Not under his name.

Mr. Jenner. And you say about a third of those responses were favorable and two-thirds unfavorable.

Mr. Weissman. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Insofar as the questions asked on Exhibit—Commission Exhibit No. 1031 are concerned?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

The Chairman. When you said there was no letter in the box under the name of Jack Ruby does that infer that there was one by any other name?

Mr. Weissman. Well, to put it very exact, if I did receive a letter from Jack Ruby, I have no knowledge of it.

The Chairman. That is what I wanted to know.

Mr. Jenner. And apart from—I asked you also the general question whether you recognized any names. I would like to add to that—did you recognize in reading over any of those letters or responses any persons, regardless of what name was signed to the document?

Mr. Weissman. None whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. During the noon recess I have had the witness read through an interview with him by the FBI on the 5th of December 1963. You have read that?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Does that accurately reflect the interview which the FBI had with you on that day?

Mr. Weissman. It does. The only variance you might find is that at the time I had the interview with the FBI, I did not develop the CUSA story with them. And they did not press the issue, and I did not go into it.

Mr. Jenner. But it does accurately reflect what took place during the course of that interview.

Mr. Weissman. Exactly.

Mr. Jenner. What you said—it reports it accurately.

Mr. Weissman. Yes; very accurately.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, I was using this method in order to shorten the balance of Mr. Weissman's testimony. There are many details here that I wanted to spare the Commission.

I will mark that with the next exhibit number, Commission Exhibit No. 1052.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1052 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence the exhibits which have been identified—I will read the exhibit numbers. Commission Exhibits Nos. 1031 through 1052, both inclusive, with some of the envelopes designated with subletters A, and one of the other documents designated with the subletter B. I ask that those exhibits be admitted in evidence with the exhibit numbers which appear on them, each of which has been recited in the record.

The Chairman. They may be admitted under those numbers.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1031 through 1052 inclusive, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. I have no further questions of the witness. Mr. Flannery, do you have anything?

The Chairman. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

Mr. Dulles. Just one general question. From the questions which have been addressed to you, Mr. Weissman, you have a general idea of what the Commission, the area of search of the Commission is so far as you are concerned.

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Did anything occur to you of any significance which you could add or would like to add to the answers you have made to the questions you have already given?

Mr. Weissman. Excuse me, please. There is just one thing but it is a question of—it is not a positive identification or anything like that. But on the day I went to the post office to pick up the mail there was a gentleman waiting, observing the box, the post office box in the Dallas post office. Now, Bill Burley was waiting in my car outside, driving around the block because the traffic was quite heavy. I went in with Ken Glazbrook, who had just come to Dallas about a day or so before by bus from the East Coast. He got off a freighter from Sweden. And this individual seemed to be about—I would put him at about 60 years old. And I thought about it since. And I said that might have been Jack Ruby, because he was short enough to be. But my recollection of the individual that followed me, when we subsequently lost in the crowd, and jumped into the car and took off, was that one time not more than 3 feet away from me—though I did not stare into his face, because I did not know if this fellow was going to shoot me or say something.

Mr. Jenner. You were then frightened; were you not?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir. And we went across through traffic and up a street and down a street and lost this individual and jumped into the car and took off back to the apartment. And to this day I do not know whether it was Ruby—because frankly my recollection of the individual on the pictures I have seen of Ruby in the newspapers, they do not seem to jibe—just the size. This fellow was about 5 foot 6 or so. He was wearing tan clothing with a Stetson hat, a tan Stetson hat.

Mr. Jenner. A typical Texas western hat, sometimes called a 10-gallon hat?

Mr. Weissman. That's right. And this is about the only thing else I have to add.

Mr. Jenner. Did he follow you?

Mr. Weissman. He followed us from the box down the steps of the post office to the traffic light. We crossed the street, he walked up the other side of the street adjacent to the post office, directly opposite us. And we were going halfway up and he started to cross the corner. We quickly ran back to the corner, across which we came. At that time Bill had come around the corner in the car, he knew nothing about it, we jumped in, sat down low and went in a straight line, made the turn and went back to the apartment. And I have never seen the individual since.

Mr. Dulles. This post office box from which you were taking the mail, was that box the one that was advertised in the paper?

Mr. Weissman. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. So that the number of that box was known.

Mr. Weissman. Yes; it was. This individual was obviously waiting for me. I did not see him. Ken pointed him out to me. We expected possibly some sort of trouble there. And Ken was walking about 6 feet to the right of me, on another side of the post office tables that are in the middle of the aisle. So if I got in any difficulty he would be there to help. And he noticed this individual and pointed him out to me. And this fellow just followed us right out, and that was that.

Mr. Dulles. As I recall, you fixed the time when you went to the mail box as probably sometime Sunday morning.

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Can you be any more definite as to the time Sunday morning when you were there?

Mr. Weissman. I am almost 100 percent sure it was between 8 and 9 o'clock.

Mr. Dulles. In the morning?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. I have no further questions.

The Chairman. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?

Senator Cooper. What age did the man seem to be?

Mr. Weissman. About 60.

Senator Cooper. I have two or three other questions.

Did your organization, CUSA, ever consider violence as a means to reaching its objectives?

Mr. Weissman. This had been—I don't remember exactly. It had been hashed over in skull sessions, so many things come up, and you talk about it and throw it away. These things did come up over the year or so that I was involved in it in Munich, and thrown out. No. In schedules that we had made up, we figured probable political happenings over a period of years, and we took into account there might be a war for example in 1968 or 1970 or 1972, and what would happen before or after, or who would probably be President at that time, and the type of action America would take. But it had never gone any further than a lot of supposition.

Senator Cooper. Did you consider the advertisements in the paper there as possibly inciting to violence under the circumstances?

Mr. Weissman. Definitely not.

Senator Cooper. Was that considered at all?

Mr. Weissman. Definitely not. At least not by me. And nobody ever mentioned it.

Senator Cooper. This group of men that you have named, of which you were one, who formed this CUSA with objectives, both political and business you said?

Mr. Weissman. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Was there any background of writings or theory of any kind upon which you depended? Where did it come from?

Mr. Weissman. Let's see. You are putting me in sort of a box but I will answer you. We read, for example—for example, I did not know I was a conservative until I got to Germany. I just knew how I felt. But I never identified myself with any particular political leaning. I thought I was a Democrat, an independent voter and independent thinker. For example, I voted for Kennedy in 1960 and I would have voted against him in 1964. But this is neither here nor there.

We were asked—not asked—we had a list of required reading. In other words, if you are going to expound the conservative philosophy we figured you should know something about it, a little bit of the background, aside from your own personal feelings. So we read, for example—I didn't—I never did find the time to do it—some of the fellows read "Conscience of a Conservative" by Barry Goldwater, one or two books that Barry Goldwater had written, and "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand, which I did not read.

Mr. Jenner. Did the others read them?

Mr. Weissman. I guess Larrie read them, because he suggested these. There were many times when I said yes—I yessed him to death, and did as I pleased. And this is one of the cases.

Senator Cooper. That was about the extent of your reading background?

Mr. Weissman. Not completely. In other words, I cannot point to any specific volumes that I read for the specific purpose of giving me a certain background. In other words, I am motivated personally by my own feelings in the situation, and the particular dogma that you might read in a book does not interest me too much.

Senator Cooper. As one of your aims, did you have the purpose of making some money out of this movement?

Mr. Weissman. Out of the movement itself, no. Out of the business, yes. Because I think it would be foolish to go on the premise that if we would devote ourselves a hundred percent to politics that we could make money at it, because there are laws against it, and in order to survive while you are in politics, you have to have a business interest, managed by yourself part time or by others full time, that can support you while you devote yourself to politics.

Senator Cooper. Was this business interest to be these organizations which you were going to infiltrate and whose treasuries you might capture?

Mr. Weissman. No.

Senator Cooper. Or was it to be—you hoped to develop businesses because of your political influence; is that it?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; to put it straight on the record, we had discussed this, and what we would do if we came into any of the treasuries of these organizations. We felt that you can incur a lot of legal problems if you are caught taking funds, tax-free funds, and using it for personal gain and so forth. I am sure there are laws against it. Exactly which ones, I do not know. I am sure there are laws against it.

And so we felt there is nothing wrong, and it is done occasionally in government, where occasionally you would use—you would meet someone politically—because generally these are more affluent individuals, people in politics. By dint of their drive they have acquired property or moneys, et cetera. And these individuals might be willing to invest some of their capital in some up-and-coming young businessmen, young politicians. And we had hoped to get some money this way. Plus the fact, by using our heads, by setting up businesses on our own that would support us in the political goal.

Senator Cooper. Did you study methods of propaganda?

Mr. Weissman. Study methods of propaganda? No; we had discussed ways of bringing about recruitment and so forth, in the way of pamphlets, or things of that nature, but this never got out of the talking stage itself. As a matter of fact——

Senator Cooper. You felt the way to move into political life quickly was to get into these extreme organizations which do use a great deal of propaganda, and are against things?

Mr. Weissman. Yes; in general, we thought these organizations because they grew so quickly, would be relatively unorganized and easy to infiltrate, and this proves to be quite true. They were more or less autonomous within their own regions, and they did not have a national director keeping tabs on everything they did.

I have something here that was made up. It is just a list. I just happened to remember. Publicity tactics, for example—rallies, hangings—these are effigies, I would imagine—demonstrations, picketing, sit-downs, stickers, billboards, boycotts, lectures, songfests, talkathons, telephone campaigns, door-to-door campaigns. Publicity—letters, brochures, pamphlets, booklets, stationery, flags, songs, emblems on blazers, stickers, match covers, billboards, radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, streetcars, taxicabs. Fund-raising would be personal solicitation, get firms to do things free for us, parties, teas, bridges, lectures, assessments, dues, sale of books, pins, buttons, stationery, flags, emblems, match covers, brochures, and pamphlets. That is it.

Mr. Jenner. That was your program?

Mr. Weissman. This was our advertising program; yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Some of these activities are certainly activities carried on by political parties. But did it ever occur to you that some of the activities which you planned, in fact which you undertook, such as infiltration into an organization, to try to seize control of it, and these methods that you used—do you consider that as in the regular spirit of our system of government?

Mr. Weissman. I would say this, sir.

Senator Cooper. Democratic system you spoke of?

Mr. Weissman. It was a question of doing something like that, or absolutely nothing at all, never getting off the ground. And while my belief would say no, of course not, this is not the way you do it, this is not the way it should be done, but it was expedient at the time to do this. And plus the fact that you certainly could not make these organizations any worse than they were. And as far as I felt, if we could bring them around to our way of thinking or my way of thinking, we could have brought them around to where they were more beneficial to the country rather than detrimental.

Senator Cooper. That is all I want to ask.

The Chairman. I noticed on the list that you had there of techniques was hangings. Now, you said—you added to that, I think, that that meant hanging in effigy, you assumed. Is that right?

Mr. Weissman. I am 100 percent sure, Your Honor, that that is what it meant. In other words, this was just ways to attract attention, and the college students are doing it all the time. It was just sort of tossing it all in a pot and then putting it down on paper.

The Chairman. Is that not provocative to violence?

Mr. Weissman. No; I think in the context that we meant it, that it was just another way of getting possibly some publicity—like if students in a university do not like their professor, for example, or if they win a football game, they will hang the opposing team in effigy, or the captain, or what have you. And it attracts a certain amount of publicity and talk.

We had to gain recognition in order to accomplish some of the goals that I had stated previously. And this is just another way. In this case, you have to consider us as young men, and effigy hanging, you know, is just part of a young idea.

The Chairman. I think that is all. Thank you very much, Mr. Weissman. You may be excused. And Mr. Flannery, thank you very much for your cooperation.

If there are any questions you would like to ask, you may feel free to do so now.

Mr. Flannery. I have nothing.

The Chairman. Very well.

(At this point in the hearing, Chairman Warren left the hearing room and the witness Robert G. Klause entered.)