Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF RICHARD EDWARD SNYDER RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Representative Ford. The Commission will come to order. Will you proceed.

Mr. Coleman. Mr. Snyder, we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 947, which is a covering airgram and another copy of the application for renewal of passport, which is a copy which remained in the Embassy at Moscow until May 29, 1964, when it was sent to the State Department.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 947 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. I show it to you, sir, to call your attention that on this copy the "X" is over the "have" rather than the "have not."

Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. I had originally shown you Exhibit No. 938, which was the other copy of the application for renewal of passport.

I take it when you compare those two copies, you note that one is not a direct offset of the other.

Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Do you have an explanation of why on July 10, two separate typings were made of the application for renewal?

Mr. Snyder. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Coleman. Also on or about July 11, 1961, at the same time you were interviewing Oswald, the State Department was sending instructions, answering your earlier despatch of May 26, 1961, is that correct?

I show you Commission Exhibit No. 937.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 937 for identification.)

Mr. Snyder. This communication would have been received after my departure from Moscow.

Mr. Coleman. You never saw that communication?

Mr. Snyder. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. That communication does indicate, doesn't it, that the State Department was saying, that based upon its records, that Oswald had not expatriated himself, or was still technically an American citizen?

Mr. Snyder. Yes; the one operative sentence there in the communications states, "In any event in the absence of evidence showing that Mr. Oswald had definitely lost United States citizenship he apparently maintains that technical status."

Mr. Coleman. But you say you never saw that document?

Mr. Snyder. No; this arrived after I departed from the post.

Mr. Coleman. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 939, the State Department operations memorandum dated August 18, 1961, and ask you if you saw it?

Mr. Snyder. No; it arrived after I left.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 939 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. On July 8 and July 10, when Oswald was at the Embassy, did you see his wife, Marina?

Mr. Snyder. Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Coleman.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have any knowledge that she was also in Moscow?

Mr. Snyder. I don't really know. I can't say whether at that time I had knowledge that she was or not. I don't ever recall having seen her, no.

Mr. Coleman. When you spoke to Oswald on the 8th or on the 10th of July, did he indicate that his wife was in Moscow?

Mr. Snyder. I am sorry, I don't know.

Mr. Coleman. In connection with the various decisions you have made in this matter, did you consult with anyone?

Mr. Snyder. I think perhaps the word "consult" isn't quite the word. I kept my superiors informed of what I was doing, and, of course, they did see my communications, and in most cases countersigned them before they went out. But in the sense of asking their opinion of what I ought to do, I don't think so.

Mr. Coleman. Did anyone instruct you as to what particular decision you should make in connection with any requests made by Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Snyder. No; this was my responsibility, really. There was no one who was presumed to know more about it at the post than I did. I mean in the sense that I was the officer in charge of that activity.

Mr. Coleman. There is one other question, sir.

We have some information that Oswald stated that in 1959, when he was in the hospital, that he was in the same ward with an elderly American. Do you have any idea who the elderly American could have been?

Mr. Snyder. No; I am afraid not.

Mr. Coleman. Would there be any record in the Embassy which would indicate what Americans were in Moscow at that time, and whether there was an elderly American who had been hospitalized?

Mr. Snyder. We kept an informal file of all information relating to the presence of Americans any place in the Soviet Union.

In other words, any time we had a report of any kind, of any level of credibility, we kept some kind of a record. It was known that there were Americans in the Soviet Union under various circumstances against their own will, or persons who might be Americans, or might have had a claim to American citizenship, who might have been dual nationals—one doesn't know. But we would get reports occasionally from a state camp, a labor camp, of a sighting of an American, or a person who claimed to be an American. This sort of thing.

Mr. Coleman. Would that information be in a special file in the Embassy, or would it be spread throughout various files?

Mr. Snyder. No; it was in, as I recall, a separate informal listing. In other words, they were also reported to the Department of State. The chances are that the Department also maintained——

Mr. Coleman. Have you any idea what that file might be called, if we were going to ask for it by name—what name we would give so that the people in Moscow would know what we are trying to take a look at?

Mr. Snyder. No; I don't. But it would most likely have been under "Welfare and Whereabouts." The files in Moscow, I might say, the classified files are not that extensive. I mean they were one-drawer files for the most part that we officers worked on ourselves, physically.

Mr. Coleman. When Oswald came in to see you in 1959, did you have any feeling that somebody was coaching him, or had instructed him what to say or do?

Mr. Snyder. Well, I think I am accurate in saying at that time I assumed he had been in contact with some level of Soviet representative or official and had discussed his intended actions, and perhaps had had some advice from them as to what to do or how to approach things—in the sense that his words were somebody else's, I don't think I could say, because he gave me the impression, the times I saw him, of an intelligent person who spoke in a manner, and on a level, which seemed to befit his apparent level of intelligence.

However, he did say in my first interview with him either "I have been told what you are going to tell me," or "I am very familiar with the arguments you are going to use on me," or words to this effect, which would be the most direct evidence, shall we say, that he had discussed what he intended to say, and how he intended to handle himself, before he came in to me.

But, in any event, I think it is a foregone conclusion, from what I know of the procedures and things like this, that he was in contact with a Soviet official, he was under somebody's charge in a sense during the time he was there. This was certainly the pattern in the Petrulli case. My whole knowledge of the system and the way it works, the whole internal consistency of it, would lead me to believe that this were the case, unless I had firm evidence to believe otherwise.

Mr. Coleman. How about when he reappeared on July 8 and 10, 1961? Did you feel he was being coached at that time in connection with his attempt to get his passport returned to him?

Mr. Snyder. No; I don't have any direct evidence that he was coached, I think, in the terms in which you mean. For one thing, his manner of speech and his general approach to the degree that I recall it was, well, less stiff, less formal, and certainly less haughty than it had been on the first occasion. He also didn't use with me the kind of Marxist sloganeering which I got from him on the first interview, which also, I think, is in a sense an evidence of his having been well briefed on his talk with me.

The second time around this was pretty much absent from his conversation.

Mr. Coleman. You say you felt he was well briefed on his first conversation with you in 1959, but not in connection with his second?

Mr. Snyder. Well, again, I cannot say that he was well briefed. I just don't know. But I say, it seemed to me evident at the time that he had discussed with, presumably, a Soviet person or persons what he intended to do at the Embassy, and perhaps the line he should take at the Embassy.

Mr. Coleman. Well, how do you feel or do you think there is any special significance to the way he entered the Soviet Union from Helsinki in October of 1959?

Mr. Snyder. Well, there is some significance perhaps, but not a great amount of significance. As most travelers, most tourist travelers come into the Soviet Union on a prearranged tour—many do come from Helsinki. Many of them do not come to Moscow. They go only to Leningrad, spend a day or two, and go back again across the border. It is the shortest entry onto Soviet territory from non-Communist territory.

It was at least one other case, when I was in Moscow, of a person—that is with possible defecting intent, who came into the Soviet Union through Helsinki, and who got his visa apparently directly at the Soviet Embassy, which I think is what Oswald did, although I cannot be sure. But it was my impression at the time that he did not have a prepared tourist tour sort of thing. But I cannot be sure on this point.

Mr. Coleman. Do you draw any significance from the fact that he was able to come from Minsk into Moscow on July 8, apparently without any difficulty?

Mr. Snyder. No; I cannot say that he came without any difficulty. He may have had considerable difficulty. It was my feeling that he would have some difficulty in coming to Moscow.

Representative Ford. Did you make any inquiry about that? Did that rouse your curiosity, that he was able to come?

Mr. Snyder. No; because I expected that he would be able to come, Mr. Ford. As a matter of fact, the letter which I wrote to him in reply to the first letter to me which I received was very carefully worded with this in mind. It was written, for one thing, partly addressed to the Soviet authorities who would read it. And partly to Oswald—which could be used by him in a sense should he run up against real difficulties in getting permission to come to Moscow.

At any rate, I think it was my feeling at the time that he probably could come to the Embassy, although it might cost him considerable difficulty. But I saw no reason to spare him this difficulty.

Mr. Coleman. Is there any other information you have which you think the Commission would be interested in in connection with its work and its investigation?

Mr. Snyder. I can't really—well, let me say that I don't know of any other facts pertinent to the investigation, or pertinent to Oswald in any way which I have not presented, at least not knowingly.

There may well be—there is much that I could elaborate on, on what I have said, relating to Oswald. There are a good deal of small things which perhaps under further questioning might be elicited.

But I am not aware of anything which I have not mentioned and which is in any way pertinent, and which ought to be mentioned.

There are other observations about Oswald and this sort of thing I suppose I could elaborate on to some extent.

Representative Ford. Earlier in the interrogation, Mr. Coleman had you outline what transpired the day that Oswald walked into the Embassy, in the first instance?

Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. The Commission has in the various papers picked up following Oswald's apprehension and murder, what purports to be his observations or his diary during his stay in the Soviet Union. Have you read any of those?

Mr. Snyder. No, sir.

Representative Ford. He describes in one of these documents his experience that day he came into the Embassy. Would you in some detail relate that again, as you understand what transpired? What time of day it was, where you were, in what office, and so forth. Who was with you, if anybody.

Mr. Snyder. I might begin, I think, as I began originally, by stating that I don't recall the time of day. But from my knowledge of the facts of the case, and the fact that I told him the Embassy was closed and so forth, it had to have been either a Wednesday or a Saturday afternoon, if not a Sunday. I am told that the date on which he came actually was a Saturday, so I presume it was a Saturday afternoon that he came.

Representative Ford. Don't spare of the detail, because it would be interesting to get your version and his as he purportedly related it in a document of his own subsequently.

Mr. Snyder. I am not sure whether he was brought in to me or whether I went out and met him at the door and brought him in. I don't recall whether one of my secretaries might have been on duty that afternoon. Normally, she would not have been.

I believe that Mr. McVickar was working in the office adjoining mine. The offices in Moscow are quite small and the door between our offices is usually open. And I think that Mr. McVickar told me he was in the next office.

There was no one in the office with me at the time I saw him.

Oswald was well dressed and very neat appearing when he came in. I don't recall whether he was wearing a suit and shirt and tie. But at any rate, his appearance impressed me at the time. And I recall that he looked very presentable.

He was very curt, very proper. At no time did he insult me or anything of that sort personally. He was just proper, but extremely curt.

Representative Ford. Did he just walk in the door and you were seated at your desk? What was the way in which you first spoke to one another?

Mr. Snyder. I don't recall whether he was ushered into my office by the secretary or one of the employees, or whether I was told that there was someone waiting for me outside, and I went and got him. It is unlikely that he walked into the offices, because he would have had to walk through two other offices to get to mine.

Well, he stated—he gave me a written statement, which is in the record, almost immediately upon his arrival, I believe.

Representative Ford. That is Commission Exhibit No. 913.

Mr. Snyder. He stated in effect that he had come to the Soviet Union to live in the Soviet Union, that he desired to renounce his American citizenship, though I don't think he used the word "renounce"—I think he used another word—but that he desired to renounce his American citizenship. That his allegiance was to the Soviet Union.

I think initially this was pretty much what his statement was. And would I please do what was necessary to get this over with.

Well, during this period of the interview, as far as I recall, he was standing. And he may have seated himself some time later in it. But I think for the initial part of the interview, he remained standing and declined to take a seat.

When I began to question him, he then rejoined with words to the effect, "I know what" or "I have been told what you are going to ask me, you are going to try to talk me out of this, and don't waste your time, please let's get on with the business."

I then asked him—I continued to probe and see where I could find a chink in his armor some place.

And I think that the initial chink which I found was regarding his relatives and place of residence in the United States.

I had his passport. I don't recall whether he handed it to me, though he probably did, or whether I asked him for it.

I noted that on the inside of the cover page of his passport his home address had been crossed out.

When I asked him where he lived, he declined to tell me. When I asked him about his relatives—I had noted from his passport that he was 20 years old. When I asked him about his relatives, he also said this was none of my business, and would I please get on with the business.

Well, I told him at that time, or fairly early in the interview, having found this kind of chink I could work on, I told him that I would have to know certainly where he lived in the United States in order to do anything else with his case.

At that stage, he kind of hemmed and hawed a bit and said—well, I live at so and so. And from there on it opened the crack a little bit, and I found his mother also lived at that—that this was the address of his mother, and probing further I found out about his Marine background, and that he had been recently discharged.

I questioned him a bit about where he had applied for his passport, and how he had come to the Soviet Union, and had he gone home to see his mother, and things of this sort.

Some of these questions he answered, and some he didn't. However, he did not seem quite, as I recall—quite so adamant about refusing this kind of question as he did about questions closer to the bone. That is, what knowledge do you have of Marxism, or where did you first come across this, or did you meet someone in the Marines?

Representative Ford. Did you go into those questions in your probing with him?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes; this sort of question he parried. I won't say he parried them—he simply refused to answer them. The only thing which he did say in the interview was "I am a Marxist." And I recall telling him then in a jocular vein, which evoked no response, that he was going to be a very lonesome man in the Soviet Union.

But I found at that point, and from there on, that for all I could determine he was completely humorless. And this was my impression of him on the other occasions on which I saw him. He was intense and humorless.

Representative Ford. What prompted the breakup of the interview, or the meeting?

Mr. Snyder. Well, the interview finally broke up when I couldn't get any more out of him.

Representative Ford. Was he satisfied or dissatisfied with the result of his conference with you?

Mr. Snyder. I think he was dissatisfied, if anything. I think he had come in there to renounce his citizenship, and had found himself thwarted. It is quite possible, though, this is reading into it things which were not necessarily evident to me at the time. It is quite possible that this was to be his big moment on the stage of history as far as he was concerned. He may have contemplated this for some time, as he said—and thus my refusal at that time to complete his renunciation may have been a hurdle which he had been totally unprepared for.

Representative Ford. Did he demand at any time that this was a right he had to renounce his citizenship, and demand why you would not permit him to proceed?

Mr. Snyder. Well, I cannot really reconstruct our conversations on that line. But I clearly pointed out to him his right. And he did decline, as I recall, to have me read the law to him. He said he was familiar with it, or something, so that I need not read the law to him. So I pointed out, I believe, at that time he had a right, as any citizen has a right to give up his citizenship if he so desires.

That other consideration is that the consul has a certain obligation towards the individual, and also towards his family, to see that a person—or that the consul at least does not aid and encourage an individual, and particularly a 20-year-old individual, to commit an irrevocable act on the spur of the moment or without adequate thought.

But I told him in any event that the consulate was closed that afternoon, that I had no secretary there to prepare the papers, and that if he would come back during normal business hours I would, of course, go through with it.

So I don't think that he left the room happy—if I can use that term—in his attitude towards me.

I recall probing a bit on the subject of the formation of his attitudes towards Marxism. I developed at this time the impression that he really had no knowledgeable background at all of Marxism. I think I asked him if he could tell me a little bit about the theory of labor value, or something like that, and he hadn't the faintest notion of what I was talking about—I mean something basic to Marxism. And I probed around a bit as to the sources of his attitudes. And I think the only thing he told me at the time was that he had been doing some reading, and that is about as far as I got. On that subject, he simply would not be drawn out.

Representative Ford. Did you ask him anything about his knowledge of the Russian language? Did he volunteer anything?

Mr. Snyder. Yes; I did ask him a bit about that. He said he had been studying Russian. And, again, I had the impression—I don't recall—I may have spoken some Russian to him—but I at least formed the impression that he did not know very much Russian. I don't think he could have gotten along on his own in Russian society. I don't think he could have done more than buy a piece of bread, maybe.

Representative Ford. Did he converse with any other member of the staff at the Embassy, to your knowledge, during the time of this first visit?

Mr. Snyder. No, no; at this time he definitely did not. And I don't think that he did during the time I was there—unless it was simply a passing word with the receptionist, or something of this sort.

But as far as I know, he had no knowledgeable conversation with anyone there.

Actually, there were only—well, when he first came there were only two officers, McVickar and myself, and at the time I left, three officers, with whom he might have talked. And it is inconceivable that either of the other two officers would have talked to him, knowing my interest in the case, or if I were not there somebody would have done so without making a memo for the file and for me of the conversation.

Representative Ford. In retrospect, assuming the tragic events that did transpire last year didn't take place, and this circumstance was presented to you again in the Embassy in Moscow, would you handle the case any differently?

Mr. Snyder. No; I don't think so, Mr. Ford. You mean in terms of would I have taken his renunciation? No; I think not.

Representative Ford. In other words, you would have put him off, or stalled him off, in this first interview, make him come back again?

Mr. Snyder. Yes; I would have.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Snyder. Particularly, since he was a minor. Normally, it would have been, I think, my practice to do this in any event, though. Obviously no two cases are alike, and the consul must decide. But particularly in the case of a minor, I could not imagine myself writing out the renunciation form and having him sign it, on the spot, without making him leave my office and come back at some other time, even if it is only a few hours intervening.

Representative Ford. In one of the despatches I believe you sent to Washington, you indicated that you had informed the press—I don't recall what exhibit that is.

Mr. Snyder. I think I said, "Press informed."

Mr. Coleman. Commission Exhibit No. 910, sir.

Representative Ford. You say, "Press informed." Is that the same as informing the press?

Mr. Snyder. No; this simply——

Representative Ford. What is the difference?

Mr. Snyder. This simply tells the Department that the press is onto the case, and that they can expect something from Moscow on it. The Department hates to be caught by surprise, they hate to read something in the newspapers before they have gotten it back home. And I am simply telling them that the Moscow press corps is aware of Oswald's presence, and that there would likely be some dispatches from the press from Moscow on the case.

Representative Ford. That doesn't mean the Embassy informed the press?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, no.

Representative Ford. How did you know the press had been informed?

Mr. Snyder. Again right at the moment, I cannot say. At what stage—Priscilla Johnson, I think, was one of the first to be aware of Oswald. Just how she became aware of him, and just where I became aware of her knowledge of him, I don't quite know. But this, I think, was quite early in the game.

Representative Ford. Was he given much attention by the press in Moscow?

Mr. Snyder. I cannot really speak with great authority on the point. I don't think so. This is based on several things.

One, there was very little about Oswald, I think, at the time other than what was sent in by Priscilla Johnson.

Secondly, I believe that Oswald himself had declined to talk to some other press persons of the American press corps.

Priscilla, as I recall, was the only one who seemed to have an entree to him.

Representative Ford. But you did not inform the American press in Moscow of Oswald?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Representative Ford. Did you ever talk to any of the American press or any other of the press, about Oswald at this time?

Mr. Snyder. No; not that I recall, Mr. Ford. It was my normal practice not to discuss cases of this kind. They were occurring all the time in Moscow. If it wasn't one kind it was another. And it was my practice not to discuss the details of such cases with the press simply because the cases—each one being different in any event—the cases were always ticklish. And every little bit helped or hurt in a case of this kind. And the consul needed, to the extent possible, to minimize the forces acting on the case, so that—and the press understood this very well.

Representative Ford. Were you familiar with his interview with Miss Mosby?

Mr. Snyder. I don't recall that I was. I knew that Priscilla Johnson had seen him and had been seeing him.

But I don't recall that I was aware that Ellie Mosby had seen him.

Representative Ford. You were acquainted with Miss Mosby as well as Priscilla Johnson?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes; very well.

Representative Ford. Are any of these stories that these correspondents write on these defector cases ever checked out with your office, or people, in corresponding position?

Mr. Snyder. Normally not, I would say.

Representative Ford. Were you at all aware of the 5,000 rubles that Oswald was given by Soviet authorities or by an agency of the Soviet Union which is sometimes called, I guess, the Red Cross? Are you at all aware of that?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Representative Ford. Are you aware of that organization in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes.

Representative Ford. Would you describe it for us, as far as you know what it is?

Mr. Snyder. Well——

Representative Ford. 5,000 rubles—excuse me.

Mr. Snyder. This was the old rubles at that time. No; I don't——

Mr Dulles. For the record, what was the date of the change in the value of the ruble? I think I remember it. It was around 1960—May-June of 1960, I think.

When it went into effect, I don't remember.

Mr. Snyder. I am sorry, I don't either, Mr. Dulles. It was during my term there. It seemed to me it was in the second half of my tour in Moscow. But I cannot really recall.

Mr. Dulles. I think somewhere in the record that ought to appear. I have an idea it was May of 1960.

Mr. Ehrlich. January 1, 1961.

Mr. Dulles. That is when it went into effect?

Mr. Ehrlich. It was officially revalued.

Mr. Dulles. January 1, 1961—let the record show that—the ruble was revalued, so that it took about 10 rubles to make 1 new ruble.

Representative Ford. So 5,000 rubles in 1959 was not an inconsequential amount.

Mr. Snyder. Oh, no.

Mr. Dulles. It wasn't very much.

Mr. Snyder. No; but 5,000 rubles at that time was probably two-thirds to three-quarters of the monthly salary of an average Soviet worker.

Representative Ford. Could you describe——

Mr. Dulles. About $500, isn't it, roughly—10 to 1 in those days?

Mr. Snyder. Wait a minute; yes.

Mr. Dulles. It was a considerable sum.

Representative Ford. It would be more than a month's salary, then.

Mr. Snyder. Yes; an average month's salary at the time was about 750 rubles, something around there.

Mr. Dulles. I think the legal rate was 20 cents, but the sort of going rate was around 10, I think. I think you could buy tourist rubles around 10, as I recall—10 to the dollar. The legal rate, I think, was 5 to the dollar.

Mr. Snyder. No; I think the legal rate was 10 to a dollar, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Chayes. In the same letter that states the date, which we supplied to the Commission at the Commission's request, it states that the legal rate was 4 to 1 until January 1961. But that was the official rate.

Mr. Dulles. I understand.

Mr. Snyder. There were different rates. The official rate was not the rate which was used for all things. For instance, we got 10 to 1 for our rubles. The so-called official rate was used, for instance, in clearing foreign trade accounts and this sort of thing.

Representative Ford. Can you tell us your impression of this so-called Red Cross in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Snyder. Well, again, I cannot speak of—about the Soviet Red Cross with any great personal knowledge. It is not a Red Cross organization in quite the sense in which we know it. It is clearly an organ of the State in a totalitarian state, which means it is not an independent organization, and its policies flow from the policy of the state, and of the central committee.

I don't think that the Soviet Red Cross conducts public fund-raising campaigns, for instance, in the way ours does.

It also is not an organization to which an individual might turn routinely for assistance as he might in our society.

Since the Soviet State does not admit that there is need in the Soviet Union, that there can be poverty or difficulty for which there are not organizations already in existence who are fully competent to deal with such problems, since they don't admit this kind of a situation—they also do not admit of public welfare organs in a sense such as the Red Cross.

Representative Ford. Do you know of any other cases during your period of service there where there were payments by this organization to American citizens, or Americans, those who had given up or tried to give up or failed to give up their citizenship?

Mr. Snyder. No, sir; as a matter of fact, the only way in which the Soviet Red Cross impinged upon my experience in Moscow was that they were the organ for handling whereabouts inquiries of persons living in the Soviet Union. If an American citizen wrote to the Embassy asking our assistance in locating a relative in the Soviet Union, this inquiry would go from us to the Soviet Red Cross, who was charged under the Soviet system of things with actually checking into it and letting us know if they felt that was in their interest. This was the only way in which the Soviet Red Cross impinged upon us.

I do recall on a few occasions advising persons who had come into the Embassy in one way or another and who were in dire need that they go to the Soviet Red Cross.

But the reaction of such persons indicated to me that they felt the Soviet Red Cross was not the place to go.

Mr. Coleman. Mr. Snyder, had you ever heard, while you were in the Embassy in Moscow, the secret police referred to as the Red Cross?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Mr. Coleman. You never heard the MVD, for example, referred to in that way?

Mr. Snyder. No; to my knowledge—I mean there is an organization called the Soviet Red Cross, which carries on at least in the international sphere some of the normal activities of international Red Cross organizations.

The big point of departure is that they on the one hand are not independent organizations as they are in free societies, but they are an organ of the state. And, secondly, I do not think they have the same role internally that our Red Cross organizations do.

Mr. Dulles. Have you heard of it being used in other instances for what might be called extraneous payments—that is, payments not related to Red Cross work?

Mr. Snyder. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Is there a policy that you were familiar with, as far as the Soviet Union was concerned, for permitting a person to apply for and be given Soviet citizenship?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes; there is a well-defined way of acquiring Soviet citizenship under Soviet law.

Representative Ford. Was Oswald familiar with that, as you could tell from your conversation with him?

Mr. Snyder. Well, he obviously was familiar with what one does. That is, he had made application to the Supreme Soviet, which is what one does.

Representative Ford. Did he tell you that?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes.

Representative Ford. He did?

Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir; this is not something which is common knowledge. One would have to have inquired and found out, and had someone show you or give you the proper form on which to make application, and tell you where to address it, and this sort of thing.

Representative Ford. What did he tell you had happened when he did that?

Mr. Snyder. All he said was that he had made application.

Representative Ford. He didn't indicate the application had been processed and approved?

Mr. Snyder. No; I cannot recall what our conversation was on that score. It was quite clear that he had not received Soviet citizenship.

But, also, I would not have expected him to receive it that early in the game. I mean, for one thing the Supreme Soviet does not act on these things on a continuing basis, but acts upon them periodically.

Representative Ford. En masse, so to speak?

Mr. Snyder. That is right. It has them on its calendar. So many times a year it acts on petitions for Soviet citizenship, presumably.

Presumably before it is sent to the Supreme Soviet with a favorable recommendation by the various Government organs, a thorough investigation is made by MVD and other organs, and various officials presumably at different levels have got to stick their necks out and recommend he be accepted—that sort of thing.

Representative Ford. If you had known that Oswald was in Minsk, what would your reaction have been?

Mr. Snyder. Serves him right.

Representative Ford. Why do you say that?

Mr. Snyder. You have never been in Minsk.

Well, in the first place, my own feeling is that there is no better medicine for someone who imagines he likes the Soviet Union than to live there awhile.

Representative Ford. In Minsk?

Mr. Snyder. Any place.

Representative Ford. I am more particularly interested in Minsk.

Mr. Snyder. But provincial towns in the Soviet Union are a very large step below the capital, and the capital, believe me, is a fairly good-sized step down from any American populated place.

But the difference between large cities and minor cities, and between minor cities and villages, is a tremendous step backward in time. And to live in Minsk, or any other provincial city in the Soviet Union, is a pretty grim experience to someone who has lived in our society—not necessarily American, but simply in western society. It might be just the same if he lived in Denmark, or some place. I mean to land up in Minsk, working in a grubby little factory is quite a comedown.

Representative Ford. Have you ever been in Minsk?

Mr. Snyder. I spent about an hour walking around Minsk, between trains, one time.

Representative Ford. Is there anything significant about him being sent to Minsk, as far as you are concerned?

Mr. Snyder. No, no; the only pattern that I would discern is that it is in all cases to my knowledge—all cases of which I have had knowledge, the invariable pattern of the Soviets is to send defectors somewhere outside of the capital city—to settle them in some city other than Moscow. There have been some minor exceptions to this.

What is the name—the British defector, and the two foreign office men Burgess and McLean. McLean lives or did live, until his death, just on the outskirts of Moscow.

Mr. Dulles. McLean is still alive.

Mr. Snyder. Pardon me—Burgess. Is Burgess the one married to an American?

Mr. Dulles. Philby is married to an American.

Mr. Snyder. One of the two, Burgess or McLean, is married to an American.

Mr. Dulles. McLean is.

Mr. Snyder. I had an interview with McLean's mother-in-law at the Embassy. At any rate, this was one exception.

Representative Ford. It has been alleged that in Minsk there are certain training schools for foreigners, or possibly for citizens of the Soviet Union. Are you at all familiar with that? Is there any information you have on it?

Mr. Snyder. No; I have not, Mr. Ford.

Representative Ford. Did you ever contact any Soviet officials about Oswald at the time of this first interview?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Representative Ford. Is that unusual or is that usual?

Mr. Snyder. It is usual.

Representative Ford. In other words, you, in your capacity, would not normally contact a Soviet official about someone such as Oswald?

Mr. Snyder. That is right; yes, sir. In other words, there is nothing at that stage of the game which—for which I would have any reason to go to the Soviet authorities.

Representative Ford. Even the fact that he had a visa 5 days overdue?

Mr. Snyder. Well, of course, I am already aware in a sense and am acting under my awareness that he is living under controlled circumstances. He is not simply living in a hotel and nobody knows about it. That he is in contact with Soviet authorities, and is there with their knowledge and consent. So that——

Representative Ford. It is implied consent, even though it may not be official as far as the documents are concerned?

Mr. Snyder. Well, actually, the document itself is quite eloquent on this subject, I think. There is the very negative fact that his visa is 5 days overdue, and he is still there—that speaks pretty loudly for the fact that he is living there without a valid visa, at least without a valid visa in his passport, with the knowledge and consent of the Soviet authorities. It could hardly be otherwise.

Representative Ford. Mr. Dulles, we have a quorum call over on the floor of the House. I will have to leave. Will you take over as Chairman? I will be back shortly.

Mr. Dulles. Very gladly. I have one or two questions.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. Dulles. Is there any question as to whether a minor can renounce his nationality?

Mr. Snyder. To my knowledge, there is not. To my knowledge——

Mr. Dulles. I will withdraw that question and ask Mr. Chayes that when it comes, because that probably is a matter for him rather than for you.

Does the Embassy in Moscow have any facility for learning about or finding out about errant American citizens, or any American citizens that are wandering around Russia? Do they register at the Embassy?

Mr. Dulles. They may.

Mr. Dulles. There is not a requirement?

Mr. Snyder. No; as a matter of fact, most do. Most that are in Moscow do stop in.

Mr. Dulles. There is a book in the Embassy that they can come in and sign?

Mr. Snyder. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Oswald did not sign in the book, I gather.

Mr. Snyder. I don't think he would; no. There would be no need for him to. He came into the Embassy and spoke to an officer, which is a higher form of registration in a sense.

Mr. Dulles. For the record, how long was it after his arrival in Moscow that he reported to the Embassy?

Mr. Coleman. He arrived on October 16, and he didn't go into the Embassy until October 31.

Mr. Dulles. That was about the time his visa—his permission to stay was going to expire?

Mr. Coleman. His permission to stay as designated on his visa had already expired.

Mr. Dulles. Was that a 12-day?

Mr. Coleman. He was in the Soviet Union 15 days before he went to the American Embassy.

Mr. Dulles. How long was his permit good for?

Mr. Coleman. His permit was good for 6 days.

Mr. Dulles, Only 6 days? You, of course, get no word from the Soviet Union when they give visas to Americans to come into the country.

Mr. Snyder. Oh, no, no; we get no cooperation from the Soviet authorities on anything concerning American citizens—excepting in circumstances where they desire the Embassy's help. A citizen gets sick while he is traveling in the Soviet Union, and they want the Embassy assistance in some way or other. But even in such cases, surprisingly often, we do not hear from the Soviet authorities. We hear from the traveler himself, somehow, but not from the authorities.

Mr. Dulles. Am I correct in my understanding that the State Department, having issued a valid passport for travel abroad, had no way of knowing whether the owner of that passport is going to the Soviet Union or not?

Mr. Snyder. Well, no.

Mr. Dulles. They have no way of knowing? So they have no way of informing you about it?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Mr. Dulles. I think there is a misunderstanding by a great many American people that there are certain countries that are named on the passport, which at one time I think was the case, but no longer is. As I recall it now an American passport was only stamped "Not good for Hungary," as I believe Oswald's passport was stamped. That has been changed, has it not.

Mr. Snyder. These stamps are changed a little from time to time.

Mr. Dulles. I will ask Mr. Chayes that question.

Mr. Snyder. Hungary, North Korea, North Vietnam, and China——

Mr. Coleman. Now Cuba.

Mr. Dulles. Could I see that passport for a moment? I think at this particular time this passport was issued, I thought the only stamp was Hungary.

Mr. Snyder. I think there must have been others, and Hungary was added after 1946.

Mr. Dulles. I will just read this.

"This passport is not valid for travel to the following areas under the control of authorities with which the United States does not have diplomatic relations: Albania, Bulgaria, and those portions of China, Korea, and Vietnam under Communist control."

Now, that speaks as of—this is a printed notice in the passport, and that speaks as of the date of issue of the passport, September 10, 1959. And then there is a stamp—I guess that is printed on the passport—also printed, in a special box, "This passport is not valid for travel in Hungary."

Mr. Chayes. And then that is superimposed with a void stamp when we took Hungary off the list of restricted areas.

Mr. Dulles. Right. I don't know whether that void stamp was put on in 1959—but it is not important as far as we are concerned.

In any event, this passport, as I understand, is perfectly good to travel to Russia without any notification to the State Department, is that correct?

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes.

Mr. Coleman. I should state for the record, sir, actually the application which Oswald filed on September 4, 1959, included Russia as a place where he intended to visit.

Mr. Chayes. On the other hand, the State Department has no mechanism for notifying posts abroad of ordinary travel to those countries.

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if it would not be a convenience to you if in the case, let's say, of the Soviet Union, or possibly other Communist countries, just as a routine matter they took off this note from the passport so you would have some record there if anything turned up that this fellow had said he was going to Russia. Maybe that would involve administrative work.

Mr. Snyder. I can't see what value this would be to a consul.

Mr. Dulles. Well, if a fellow got into trouble you would turn to his records alphabetically and you would find Lee Harvey Oswald in his application said he was going to go to Russia.

Mr. Snyder. You mean if he gets in trouble in Russia?

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Snyder. If he gets in trouble in Russia, we know he is there.

Mr. Dulles. You might; you might not. They don't always tell you. You don't think that would be of any particular value, though?

Mr. Snyder. No; I don't, Mr. Dulles. Under any circumstances under which it was useful to the Embassy to know whether a person had said he was coming there, we can have the information by cable within 24 hours. So to attempt—it would seem to me—to attempt to notify embassies abroad——

Mr. Dulles. I am not saying embassies abroad. I am saying the Soviet Union.

Mr. Snyder. But why the Soviet Union and not Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria?

Mr. Dulles. I said the Communist countries, I think, before. I certainly would not do it for Britain, France, and friendly countries. There is no point.

Mr. Snyder. This would involve a clerical job of major magnitude which from the Embassy's point of view I don't see that it would serve any purpose.

Mr. Dulles. Well, if a young man 20 years old just out of the Marines says he is going to the Soviet Union, isn't that of some significance?

Mr. Snyder. Not necessarily. I mean in terms of the thousands of people—thousands of Americans who flutter back and forth across the face of the earth——

Mr. Dulles. I am not talking about people floating back and forth across the earth. I am talking about people going to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Snyder. In other words, if I had looked at Oswald's application at the time he made it, knowing nothing else about it than he had just gotten out of the Marines, I would not think it was so terribly unusual, or of great interest to me that this young boy is taking a trip to a number of western European countries, including the Soviet Union. Nor would there be anything in such knowledge which would in any way I think trigger any action on my part.

Mr. Dulles. Do you have any special instructions other than the ones that you have referred to about the handling of those that renounce their citizenship, or have you covered that, do you think, quite fully? Are there any special instructions that the Embassy in Moscow prescribed?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Mr. Dulles. There are none?

Mr. Snyder. No; there are none; no, sir. This sort of thing is down to the meat of the consular officer's job. That is, he is out on his own pretty much on something of this sort. He has got to use his judgment, and such experience as he has, and such commonsense as he has.

Mr. Dulles. He has got to know the law, too—he has to know the law and regulations.

Mr. Snyder. Oh, yes; if you don't know, the first thing you do is look up the regulation and the law and see what your basic requirement is.

In renunciation cases, it is a fairly simple matter—that is, for the consular officer, as far as the law is concerned. He doesn't have a large body of law. He has a specific law which tells him exactly what the conditions are for renouncing citizenship, and that is it.

Mr. Dulles. I differ from you a little bit, in the sense that I don't think if a young fellow 20 years old came in to me and wanted to renounce his citizenship, and if I were doing consular work, as I was at one time—I think I would feel that that was a pretty—rather a tough one to handle.

Mr. Snyder. I don't say it is not tough to handle. What I meant to say was that the legal basis under which the consul, or within which the consul has to operate——

Mr. Dulles. I will talk to Mr. Chayes about the problem of a minor doing that.

Mr. Snyder. From the consular's point of view it is a fairly simple one. It doesn't require a lot of legal research.

Mr. Chayes. Just to have that in the record at this point the statute provides very clearly on the age problem, section 351(b) of the act provides that below 18 years the act specified—the citizen shall not be deemed to have expatriated himself by the commission prior to his 18th birthday of any of the acts specified in paragraphs 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

Mr. Dulles. That includes renunciation?

Mr. Chayes. Yes, 6 is renunciation. But he has to assert—within 6 months after obtaining the age of 18 years—he has to assert his claim to U.S. nationality, in order to get this automatically. But I would think the courts would go further and hold that, especially where volunteerism is involved, as in renunciation, below 18 years is the cutoff point—not 21. It used to be 21, but the Congress reduced the age limit to 18.

Mr. Dulles. Well, that covers the point here. Was there anything about the Oswald case in the Soviet press at any time to your knowledge?

Mr. Snyder. To my knowledge, there was not, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Dulles. And the Soviet authorities have given you no information about Oswald that hasn't been communicated to us? You have no other information at all from the Soviet authorities about Oswald?

Mr. Snyder. No, sir; I never communicated with the Soviet authorities about Oswald in any form, nor did they ever ask me anything about him.

Mr. Dulles. And you don't know any of the other circumstances under which his case was reconsidered after his attempted cutting of his wrists and suicide? You don't know what channels that went through in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Snyder. I was not aware of this element of the case.

Mr. Dulles. You were not aware, of course, at that time of this element of the case. Do you know what intourist guides were in charge of him?

Mr. Snyder. No.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know any other case during the period when you were in Moscow of an American who had married a Soviet wife and was given an exist visa as quickly and as easily as Oswald and Marina were given theirs?

Mr. Snyder. I don't know offhand whether Marina Oswald got her visa, her exit visa, that quickly and easily.

Mr. Dulles. Well, I think that is a matter of record—when she applied and when she got it.

Mr. Coleman. The American visa——

Mr. Dulles. This is the Soviet exit visa.

Mr. Coleman. You are talking about the Soviet passport? She applied for her passport——

Mr. Dulles. It is a visa to get out.

Mr. Snyder. It is both. She needs a Soviet passport. They are issued at the same time.

Mr. Dulles. That is correct.

Mr. Coleman. She applied for her Soviet passport in July 1961, and she was informed that it would be issued to her approximately on December 25, 1961.

Mr. Dulles. About 6 months. Do you know of any case where that has been accomplished in 6 months, other than this case, during your period there? I don't think I ought to ask you about any period other than the period you were in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Snyder. I think that a review perhaps of a few other of the cases of American citizens marrying Soviet girls during the time I was there might show that 6 months is not a terribly short period. There isn't, again, any standard for things like this. In the first place, so much depends upon the local officials in the beginning of the thing, and whether they drag their feet or don't, and how much pressure they put on the girl to talk her out of it, and all of this sort of business.

My offhand feeling is that 6 months is not an unusually short period of time, but it certainly is getting down to about probably the minimum of our experience with such things.

Mr. Dulles. That is all I have, Mr. Witness.

Mr. Coleman. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to offer for the record Commission Exhibits 908 through 940 except for Exhibit 911, which we didn't identify.

Mr. Dulles. Let me take these one at a time.

Exhibits Nos. 908 through 940, except for Exhibit No. 911, shall be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 908–910, and 912–940 were received in evidence.)

Mr. Dulles. Now, for the record, what about these two numbers that are omitted?

Mr. Coleman. When Mr. McVickar testifies he will be able to identify the documents.

Mr. Dulles. You will have these admitted at a later date?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Now, the second category you wanted to have admitted.

Mr. Coleman. I would like to also offer into evidence Commission Exhibit 946 which is the Oswald passport.

Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred, to heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 946 for identification, was admitted into evidence.)

Mr. Coleman. I offer for the record Commission Exhibit No. 947 which is the second copy of the passport renewal application, which has been identified after lunch.

Mr. Dulles. And Exhibit No. 947, the passport application, shall be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 947 for identification, was admitted into evidence.)

Mr. Coleman. I have no further questions, sir.

Mr. Dulles. We are just starting with a new witness. Won't you go ahead.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Snyder. It has been very helpful to us.

Mr. Snyder. I hope it has.

(Discussion off the record.)