DOCUMENTS, &c. &c. (continued 2)

5199. Mr. Aldam.] Why could not they work their way back?—But they still would be losing the enormous wages that they would obtain on board a slave ship.

5200. Mr. W. Patten.] Do you happen to know the wages given on board the slave ships?—They vary a little; but the wages of a common sailor I have known to be 5l. a month. I should say a common seaman on board one of those vessels would obtain, taking the value which the slaves fetch, 7l. or 8l. a month on a successful voyage.

5201. Of course, those sailors undertake those voyages, and obtain that enormous remuneration on account of the danger they run to life and limb, from coming into the hands of our cruizers?—Yes; English sailors would, until lately, have been hung if we caught them on board a slave vessel, and, therefore, we see no English sailors in that trade; but you would have men of all nations volunteer into it, if it were not for the danger they ran.

5202. There is nothing in the trade itself, except the danger that they run from our cruizers, which would lead to such enormous wages?—Nothing whatever; they may be exposed to very great inconveniences, and if you increase the inconveniences in the way I proposed, the wages would double, probably; the rate of wages depends upon the danger and inconvenience.

5203. Do you think that all the parties usually engaged in the slave trade are perfectly aware that they run the risk of being put on shore in case of capture, and of having to undergo great peril of their lives before they can return to their homes?—It is known in all the slaving ports; it has been the universal practice ever since the cruizers were on the station to land the crews; indeed it cannot be otherwise with the small vessels that we have on the coast. To venture to take fifty or sixty scoundrels like the crews of those vessels, on board such a ship, would be madness.

5204. Have you had your attention called to the very great hardship which some of those crews have sustained when put on shore?—It has not come before me in any way whatever; I have no knowledge of it at all; I attended this Committee some time ago, and I heard of one case, where it was mentioned that they were starved, but that is the only case I have heard of.

5205. Can you suggest any alteration by which they could be put on shore and subjected to very great personal inconvenience, without the dreadful loss of life that we have heard of?—I think they were as badly off when they were landed at Prince’s, which is a Portuguese settlement, as they are at any other place.

5206. Would it increase the expenses very materially, or be a very material inconvenience, to fix upon certain points of the coast at which the crews could be landed before the vessels were sent to Sierra Leone for judgment?—I do not think it could be done; it would take the cruizer out of his ground, and would inconvenience him greatly; the object is to keep the vessel efficient for the cruize, and keep him on the ground; an empty vessel might run out, in order to be taken, while the full slaver got away.

5207. If the regulation were adopted, that a cruizer taking a slaver in certain districts, which should be detained, should be obliged to land the crew at particular places; would that be practicable?—I do not think it is possible.

5208. Mr. Forster.] Independently of the feeling of humanity towards the crews themselves, do you not think that the example of such treatment must have a very bad effect in the eyes of the natives of the coast of Africa, as showing them an example of inhumanity on the part of those who profess to be acting solely in that way from motives of humanity?—I have never known a cruizer act inhumanly; I heard of one case the other day, where they were starved, but it was stated in that case that it was owing to the refusal of the Portuguese factories to support them.

5209. Mr. Stuart Wortley.] In the paper you have read, it was stated that there were 687 sailors engaged in navigating 30 slave vessels; a short time since you stated that with respect to ships condemned at Sierra Leone, there were seldom more than three or four connected with the navigation of a vessel; will you reconcile those two statements?—They only leave those three or four on board; they land all but those who are required as witnesses at Sierra Leone.

5210. There are no individuals belonging to the slave crew retained on board?—None, but those who are required as witnesses.

5211. Then those individuals of whom you spoke, as being charges against the vessel, were individuals retained as witnesses?—Yes.

5212. Chairman.] Do you think that the price paid to the Spanish or Portuguese Governments, as the case might be, would suffice for the maintenance of the crews of those vessels?—Yes, it would be only rationing them for the voyage across.

5213. And paying for their passage?—Now we pay continually out of the foreign moiety for the passage; at least the commissariat does.

5214. That is for the captain and mate; but here you are supposing several hundred instead of 20 or 30?—The rationing of the commissariat commences the moment we cease to have any thing to do with the vessel; the day the vessel is condemned, there is given to the commissary a list of the men who will come upon him for rations, and as long as they remain in the colony they will come upon him daily; when a number of vessels have been captured, and at one time we had 37 vessels lying in the harbour at the same time, they would cause a great drain upon the provisions, which are sent out only to meet ordinary contingencies; in that case the commissary went to the expense of hiring vessels to send those men away, and charged those expenses, in the same way as he would have done the rations, against the share of the foreign government.

5215. If you brought the crew to Sierra Leone you would increase the expense of maintenance very considerably?—Yes.

5216. You still consider that the moiety given to the foreign government would cover such expenses?—Yes, if vessels continued to be taken as they have been in the last few years, they would do so certainly. The only case in which I should conceive that the expense would exceed the moiety, is where very few vessels are condemned, and where you would have to run across with a very few passengers.

5217. This could be done by the existing treaty, without the necessity for any fresh negotiation?—Yes.

5218. Captain Fitzroy.] What becomes of the remainder of that moiety which goes to the foreign government, the part which is not used in paying for the maintenance of those men?—I believe there are always accounts going on between the governments at home, and it is used in England in some way that I am not aware of; the Treasury disposes of it either by paying it over to the agent of the foreign government here, or in some other way.

5219. Is the foreign moiety paid to our Government?—The whole of it is paid to the commissary at Sierra Leone; he has accounts with the Treasury; there are regular accounts which are made up as between the British Government and the foreign government, showing the exact sum that is due by the English Government to the foreign Government for their moiety.

5220. Mr. W. Patten.] Looking to the general nature of the vessels that are sold at Sierra Leone, do you think that they would bring by auction as large a price if sold in the West Indies, as they would sold at Sierra Leone?—Yes, I think they would.

5221. Do you think they would bring a larger price?—There have been vessels sold at the West Indies, but there was not any material difference in price; it would depend a good deal upon the island to which they went; in some islands there might be no great demand.

5222. Chairman.] There is a good deal of small traffic, is there not, along the coasts of the West India islands?—Yes; I should think the chances are, that the prices vessels would fetch in the West Indies would be higher than at Sierra Leone.

5223. Mr. W. Patten.] Suppose the station was established at the West Indies, would there not be the security that they would be sold without being made use of again for the slave trade?—There might be. I have strongly recommended that vessels should be sent to the West Indies, when they have cargoes on board; that the slaves should be landed in the West Indies, and the vessels, of course, might be sold there when sent over.

5224. Chairman.] You would bring them to Sierra Leone for adjudication?—Yes; there could not be a mixed commission established under the present system in the West Indies; because the treaty requires that there shall be one mixed commission on the coast of Africa, and another in the West Indies, and we have one there already at Havannah.

5225. You would think it a very material advantage, looking to the slave trade, if those sales could take place at the West Indies instead of on the coast of Africa?—No; the advantage that I was alluding to, is an advantage for the supply of labour in the West Indies, but not with regard to the supply of vessels, because the vessel might soon run across the Atlantic, and get into the hands of the slavers, as at present.

5226. If a person wished to obtain those vessels bought in the West Indies, for the encouragement of the slave trade, he would buy them at a great disadvantage as compared with the price which he now pays at Sierra Leone?—Yes; but notwithstanding the higher price in the West Indies, it is not likely to be such a price that the owner would not be able to get much more from the slave dealers than anybody else.

5227. If the sales of the prize vessels and the prize goods were made in the West Indies rather than at Sierra Leone, would they be less serviceable in the encouraging the slave trade?—Those particular goods would.

5228. Would the absence of that mode of supply be in any way an obstruction to the slave trader?—Certainly not.

5229. Are they got at those prize sales at a cheaper rate than they are directly from the merchants?—The price goods obtained at public auctions is much lower than you would buy them for in one of the shops.

5230. Then by so far as the prize sales in Sierra Leone do furnish a cheaper article to the slaver than the regular sale would do, so far they are an assistance to his trade?—The cheapness of goods sold at Sierra Leone is useful to all trades as well as to that.

5231. But if those sales did not take place at Sierra Leone, they would not be supplied so cheaply as they are?—It is a very small portion of assistance they receive; but so far as it goes it is an assistance.

5232. A vessel sold at Sierra Leone, is more easily convertible to the purposes of the slave trade, than if it were sold in the West Indies?—More easily, but not much more so, because the vessel might be run across at once.

5233. Is there not more demand for vessels in the West Indies than at Sierra Leone?—Certainly, and therefore the price would be higher.

5234. Captain Fitzroy.] Is there not also an advantage in having men disposable, ready to man those ships when purchased?—Yes.

5235. Mr. Forster.] Are not the cases very few in which they would man the vessels at once again?—I have known cases of that kind.

5236. But are not the cases comparatively rare?—Yes.

5237. Chairman.] Who generally are purchasers of prize vessels?—The greater portion are purchased on speculation; the number sold now is not at all, in proportion to the number taken, what it was before the Spanish treaty, under which most of the vessels are condemned, require that the vessels should be cut up, but some are bought on speculation, and come into the fruit trade, and others go into the Mediterranean trade; others are bought by slavers.

5238. Mr. Evans.] Do you know any thing of the slave ship Almirante, for which vessel the sum of 600l. was offered by an officer of Government, to be used as a tender, which offer was not accepted, and the vessel was sold at 1,500l., and immediately went down to the Bonny and took away 600 slaves from that port?—The Almirante was captured before my time at Sierra Leone, but I think it is very likely, because such things were taking place continually.

5239. Mr. W. Patten.] When you were at Sierra Leone, you have stated in your evidence already, that the liberated Africans were carrying on the trade with much greater advantage than the white merchants, in consequence of the price at which they obtained goods at public auctions?—Not entirely in consequence of that, but that has been one great means to assist them. For many years past, before those prize goods were sold at Sierra Leone, the liberated Africans had gradually been working themselves into notoriety; most of them are very much addicted to trading, and the persons whom they have supplanted are a lazy, indolent, worthless set, who cannot compete with them at all, and having completely driven out of the market the Maroons and settlers, they are now gradually driving out the white merchants.

5240. There is then this additional disadvantage in those auctions at Sierra Leone, that they are destroying the trade of the white merchants of the place, by the other merchants being able to purchase goods at a price which is not remunerating to the British merchant?—I consider it a great advantage.

5241. Is it not a great disadvantage in one respect, that it is discouraging the trade between England and the coast of Africa at that particular point?—No, I think quite the reverse; the supply of goods will be the same whoever are the receivers, and the extent of our export to Sierra Leone will not be diminished by altering the colour of the merchants there.

5242. But if it should be desirable to establish a general trade with that part of the coast in a legitimate way, does not the sale of goods at those public auctions, at materially reduced prices, offer a great impediment to English merchants conducting trade upon that part of the coast?—I think its first effect might be that; but its ultimate effect, I think, would be far different. I think the great point is to encourage the use of such articles, and to increase the desire for them; and the British goods will always, in competition, beat out the foreign goods from the market.

5243. Has it not pretty much the same effect there that a very large sale, under a bankruptcy in England, has upon the trade in this country?—I think not, to the same degree there; because what you require there, in order to create a demand for goods of good quality is, to allow the people to have the use of something superior to what they would have without those sales.

5244. Chairman.] But the goods sold at those prize sales are articles of an inferior kind, are they not?—The goods that are sold there are very much the same as those that are used by the natives in their own trade, and probably many of them are British manufacture.

5245. You think that it is an advantage to the trade ultimately, that those forced sales, at unnaturally low prices, should be made within the colony, producing a taste which will be gratified by a more regular trade?—Yes.

5246. Though they may interfere with the regular trade in the colony?—That is only for a time.

5247. Mr. Aldam.] Are the goods English goods?—The principal part of them are.

5248. Chairman.] Those forced sales have had a very injurious effect upon the regular trade of the place, have they not?—Yes, upon the shops; at the same time they have raised into wealth, and brought forward still more prominently than before, the liberated African hawkers.

5249. Have they created a class of native traders who have extended commerce inland further than British trade by itself, in its natural course, would have done?—Yes, certainly; the trade between Sierra Leone and the Sherboro’, and the rivers in the neighbourhood of Sierra Leone, has been very much more brisk in the large canoes that are employed by the liberated African traders, since goods have come in so cheaply.

5250. Therefore you think, incidentally to the regular trade, advantage has been given by these forced sales, which have created tastes which would not have existed under other circumstances?—Yes.

5251. Mr. Forster.] The brisk trade which you have spoken of between Sherboro’ and Sierra Leone would be with those goods; a trade chiefly with the slave dealers in that quarter?—All are slave dealers, if they can be, beyond British jurisdiction; but what the Sierra Leone traders receive in exchange for goods are rice, and other articles of produce, which are consumed in the colony; for though rice is the principal food of all who can afford to pay for it, there is no rice raised in the colony; and therefore a trade of some kind is required to be carried on, in order to procure the means of subsistence.

5252. Chairman.] The colony has not the means of supporting itself?—No.

5253. Mr. Forster.] Though those goods may be sold to slave dealers in those districts, you think that it is a legitimate and desirable trade for the English merchant?—Yes.

5254. Mr. Evans.] Have you not stated that the black merchants at Sierra Leone have more capital than the English?—There are hardly any English merchants; there are agents of English houses. The black merchants have twice as much capital as the resident English agents, but there is one merchant, Mr. William Cole, who is carrying on business on his own account, and he went into the market, he did not hold back and oppose the thing, as was done by the other English traders, but he entered into competition with the black traders, and made a good deal of money by it.

5255. In Sierra Leone merchants who had capital to employ would have considerable advantage over the agents or merchants who had not the money to lay down?—Yes.

5256. Mr. Forster.] Was not the want of money you have alluded to on the part of the English merchants, mainly owing to having their stores filled with English merchandize, which was rendered completely unsaleable by the quantity of prize goods thrown into the market in the way you have mentioned?—I think not, because Mr. Cole was in just the same circumstances; he had the largest store in the town; but he had more money than the others; he had money in his pocket instead of being in debt in England, and instead of sending home money as others were obliged to do to pay their accounts in England, he reserved his money to purchase cheap goods in the colony.

5257. Had he a large stock?—Yes, he had; but he took advantage of the circumstances that occurred, and made his profit by them.

5258. Would it answer the purpose of the trader at Sierra Leone to keep a large quantity of goods and money on his hands?—If Mr. Cole had known of those prize goods coming in such large quantities he would not have purchased goods from England, but he happened to have those goods in store as the other merchants had, and he happened to have money also, and he took advantage of the prize goods coming in, but there were very few merchants in that position.

Martis, 14º die Junii, 1842.

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland. Mr. Aldam. Viscount Courtenay. Mr. Denison. Mr. W. Evans.

Captain Fitzroy. Mr. Forster. Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Milnes. Mr. W. Patten.

LORD VISCOUNT SANDON, IN THE CHAIR.

Henry William Macaulay, Esq. called in, and further examined.

5261. Chairman.] Do you wish to make some remarks upon Dr. Madden’s Report, page 14?—I do. He states that liberated Africans at the prize sales at Sierra Leone “buy up the coppers, guns, and ship’s stores of vessels for the British agents of the slave traders of the Sherboro’ and Gallinas residing at Freetown, and thus they acquire a taste for this illegal traffic.” Now he might have known, if he had made any inquiry at Sierra Leone, that coppers are never sold at public auction, or any kind of equipment for the slave trade. The subject is referred to by Colonel Doherty in his reply to Dr. Madden’s Report. He gives a positive contradiction to that statement, and I can confirm the contradiction.

5262. To what are the sales confined?—To the vessels and the goods found on board, and to the tackle, apparel, and furniture; that is the term used in the condemnation; but coppers, irons, and any other articles that may be used again in the slave trade are always brought up to the commission-office or warehouses. It is the interest of the Mixed Commissions to gain every single copper they can; for, when broken up, the coppers are sold, and supply funds from which the repairs of the boat used in the service of the Mixed Commission are paid; that is, the boat used to carry about the officers of the court in the harbour.

5263. Do you mean that the accommodation which the officers derive is dependent upon that?—No; but they are constantly afloat. During the time that a vessel is there the marshal is required to visit her three times a day.

5264. But is the accommodation dependent upon its being derived from this source?—No; whenever that copper fund is insufficient, the repairs of the boat are paid out of the funds of which the foreign governments pay a portion; but the money derived from the sale of the coppers is appropriated to that purpose, and there is a regular account kept of the sale of those coppers that are broken up. There never was an instance of a copper being sold at public auction, or any equipment.

5265. Have you any reason to believe that this practice does lead to the encouragement of the slave trade?—I have none whatever.

5266. Have you reason to believe that any of the parties, either British or native, living at Freetown, are in any way sharers in the proceeds of slave transactions?—They may sell goods to the slave traders.

5267. Are they sharers in the proceeds of slave goods?—I believe not; I cannot say for certain, because we have a shifting population of Spaniards and Portuguese passing through the colony; but I should say no resident whatever shares in such proceeds. It is a thing which one cannot know, because of course such a transaction would be concealed if it existed.

5268. Are you not aware of any British agents of the slave traders; are you aware of the existence of agents of the Sherboro’ and of Gallinas residing in Freetown?—Yes, of persons purchasing vessels on account of slave traders, and I have no doubt purchasing goods also.

5269. What is the interest in the transaction which such persons have?—A commission, I presume.

5270. Mr. Forster.] In your former evidence, you have mentioned a merchant, of the name of Kidd, as acting as agent for the purchase of prize vessels on behalf of the slave traders at the Gallinas; in your opinion, was Mr. Kidd singular in that respect?—I do not recollect any other person employed in that way during my time.

5271. Is it within your knowledge that merchants, who were members of the Council of Government at Sierra Leone, have been engaged in similar transactions?—Never, to my knowledge; but I would also mention, as Mr. Kidd’s name has been spoken of, that, since the last meeting of the Committee, I have met with his name accidentally, in connexion with another transaction of the same kind, in the printed Parliamentary Papers, and therefore I may refer to it. It is the case of a vessel sold to a slave trader, a vessel called the Ligeira, which was captured a second time, and brought into Sierra Leone a very short time after she left the port; it appeared that in the meantime Mr. Kidd had carried her from the colony and sold her to a slave trader, and she was captured almost immediately afterwards. The case is reported at page 101 of Class (A.) of the Slave Trade Papers, for 1839-40.

5272. Chairman.] Would it not be desirable, if possible, that all the vessels taken in the slave trade should be broken up?—Certainly, it would be the best thing that could possibly be done; and in those cases where it appeared to the court, during the latter part of the time that I administered the mixed courts there, that a vessel could have been condemned either as a Portuguese or a Spaniard, in all these cases we condemned her as a Spaniard, in order that she might be cut up after her condemnation; for the slave traders were seriously injured by being deprived of the means of getting off the coast and getting slaves again.

5273. Mr. W. Patten.] In the case of the breaking up of a vessel, do the captors get any prize money?—Yes, they get a bounty on the tonnage of that vessel; she is measured by the surveyors before being broken up, in order to ascertain her tonnage by the new mode of measurement, and upon that measurement the captors are paid the bounty in England.

5274. It is immaterial to the captors whether the vessel is broken up or sold again, so far as their private interests are concerned?—Except that the vessel sells whole for much more than she does when she is broken up for fire-wood.

5275. Is the vessel valued only as fire-wood when broken up?—They get only a moiety of the proceeds of the broken parts, in the other case they get a moiety of a vessel fit for sea, with all the rigging perfect.

5276. You do not coincide with Dr. Madden, who recommends that a vessel when captured should be put into the possession of the capturing officer to be disposed of?—It would be quite impossible; the foreigners would very justly complain of us if we left the vessel in charge of the officer when once brought before the court. It appears by a paper, which I have seen this morning only, that already they complain of irons and other things, to condemn the vessel, being put on board after the arrival of the vessel at Sierra Leone. Now, if during the time the vessel was passing through the court, and during the time when the marshal now has charge of her, in order to prevent any thing of that kind happening, you left the vessel to the officer, who is interested in putting three or four shackles on board, which is quite sufficient to condemn the vessel, I think they would have just cause to complain.

5277. What Dr. Madden recommends is, that when the vessel has been condemned it should be put at the disposal of the commanding officer on the post, for the exclusive use of the service of the navy?—A small number of the vessels condemned might perhaps be beneficially made use of, and the new Act authorises the purchase of vessels when the commanding officer may think it right to purchase them; but having had that option, he of course only purchased such vessels as were required; we had 60 odd vessels in 1839 before the court; what would the navy have done with all those vessels?

5278. Mr. Forster.] Had many of those vessels cargoes on board?—Yes.

5279. Chairman.] Should you think it would be advisable to sell the vessels under bond that they should not be employed in the slave trade for a certain period?—The law is now almost as stringent as any bond could be.

5280. In what way?—Dr. Madden seems to suppose that vessels may be fitted out in Sierra Leone, and may lie in British waters equipped for the slave trade; but any one at Sierra Leone would have told him that no vessel could possibly lie there equipped for the slave trade; the authorities are so particular, that even in many cases vessels were seized and brought before the court if they were supposed to have a few gallons too much water in them. There is an exceeding jealousy on the subject, as indeed appears by some of the papers which have been presented.

5281. Mr. Forster.] Before what court is a vessel, taken in British waters, equipped for the slave trade, brought; the Court of Admiralty or the Court of Mixed Commission?—If she is prosecuted under the Act of Parliament, she is prosecuted of course in the Vice-Admiralty Court.

5282. Is there not a rule on that subject, and are not all vessels taken in British waters on suspicion of being engaged in the slave trade prosecuted in the Admiralty Court?—No; it remains with the captor, if there is a treaty which will reach the vessel, to prosecute her under that treaty before the Mixed Commission Court, if she is a Spaniard or a Portuguese, or before the Admiralty Court, for a breach of the municipal law, because she violates both the treaty and the municipal law, and therefore he has the choice of the one court or the other.

5283. In your last evidence you spoke of a vessel captured of the name of Jack Wilding, at Accra, upon that ground; in which court was she prosecuted?—Before the Mixed Commission Court, but the captor had the option of prosecuting her before the Admiralty Court; the expenses are so much less in our court, and the proceedings so much more rapid, that he preferred bringing her before ours.

5284. Is not the evidence taken before the Mixed Commission Court transmitted to England?—Yes; and it is published by the Foreign Office.

5285. But the evidence in trials before the Vice-Admiralty Court is never made public?—It is not, and a very great disadvantage it is, for this reason: our ability to condemn many of the vessels that were condemned in 1839 depended very much upon evidence found on board vessels brought before the court; this evidence conclusively proved the employment in the slave trade of other vessels not then before us, which were afterwards captured. Now, all evidence of that kind, which might be made use of subsequently in the condemnation of other vessels, is completely shut up from the public or from general knowledge, by the proceedings before the Vice-Admiralty Court being never made public. In the Mixed Commission Court papers can be invoked by the proctor which have been filed in a particular case against another vessel that is subsequently prosecuted.

5286. Chairman.] Is there no advantage in the secrecy of such papers?—None whatever.

5287. The proceedings before the Mixed Commission Court are public in themselves, and are published afterwards?—The examinations are not public, but strictly private in the first instance, but they are read in open court at the trial of the vessel, and they are sent home to the Foreign Office; an abstract of the evidence of every witness is given.

5288. The evidence taken before the Vice-Admiralty Court is not published in any way?—No.

5289. Is it communicated to the Mixed Commission?—No.

5290. Mr. Aldam.] Are the proceedings of the Vice-Admiralty Court there carried on in the same form as the proceedings of the Admiralty Court here?—Yes, very much the same.

5291. With any greater degree of secrecy?—No, but here the public papers publish them; we have no newspapers there to publish accounts of the proceedings.

5292. Chairman.] Would there be an advantage if the proceedings of the Vice-Admiralty Court were always communicated to the Mixed Commission?—Yes; and I recommended at the time when vessels began to go so frequently to the Vice-Admiralty Court, in 1839, that we should be informed of the papers filed in that court.

5293. Would there be any difficulty or objection to that?—There is no establishment of clerks connected with the Vice-Admiralty Court to supply copies at all, and it is not the custom of the judge of the Vice-Admiralty Court to report his proceedings home.

5294. Mr. Evans.] Do you think that the Mixed Commission Court has sufficient power for the objects for which it is instituted?—I think that they have. They have been rather shy of exercising it sometimes, but I believe that they do possess much more power than they ever exercised.

5295. You have no improvement in the court to suggest?—No. There seemed to be a deficiency of authority in the marshal a short time ago; but that was supplied by a local Act, which gave him all the power which the marshal of the Vice-Admiralty Court possesses.

5296. Chairman.] It is stated by Dr. Madden, in page 14, that the new interests which he supposes to be created in the minds of the British residents, especially in the minds of the liberated negroes, “have a very unfavourable influence upon them when employed in public situations, or called upon to act as petty juries in our courts.” He states, “if the case is one which involves the interest of a slave dealer, no matter what his nation, the disposition of a jury thus composed is invariably to give a verdict in favour of the slave trader, unless the chief justice should take extraordinary pains to make them do their duty honestly and impartially.” Do you know instances in which this has operated?—No; I believe it never operated in any case.

5297. What are the cases in which slave dealers come before juries in Sierra Leone?—Slave dealers have come before them, and been convicted and executed; I never knew an instance of a man who ought to have been convicted escaping.

5298. He mentions here an instance of a vessel, the Gollupchik, being captured and being sold, and becoming the property of certain London merchants, and being again sent out with a cargo of goods for the slave trade factories of Gallinas, under British colours, and commanded by a British subject. “The vessel,” he says, “was condemned by the Mixed Court of Justice at Sierra Leone, and the English captain was committed for trial at the ensuing assizes. The grand jury found a true bill against this man on the clearest evidence, but the petty jury, all of whom were persons of colour, returned an unanimous verdict of acquittal, which was received by the coloured persons in the court, and by some others of similar sentiments, with decided tokens of approbation.” Are you acquainted with that case?—Not at all; without knowing the case it would be impossible to say whether the jury were right or wrong; I have known cases where they have discharged persons accused of slave dealing, and where they were right. In the case referred to by Mr. Hartung of the Echo, the jury thought that the prisoner was not liable to conviction; but I never knew in my time any man who ought to have been convicted of slave dealing escape.

5299. Generally speaking, did you find the coloured juries do their duty in all cases?—Certainly; they do their duty very well.

5300. Mr. W. Patten.] Is it from any particular class that juries are selected?—The grand juries are selected from the most respectable inhabitants of Freetown, and the petty juries from shopkeepers and the reputable class of traders.

5301. Viscount Courtenay.] Who selects them?—The sheriff.

5302. Chairman.]—Has the office of chief justice been frequently vacant?—It has been vacant several times since I was in the colony, and an acting chief justice has been appointed.

5303. Who has acted in the interval?—During one interval, Mr. Melville, who was Queen’s advocate at the time, and Mr. Carr, who was also Queen’s advocate, and who is now chief justice, officiated on another occasion.

5304. Were they gentlemen who had a legal education?—Both of those persons had; but there were two other instances in which the office was held by men who had no legal education; once by a merchant, and a second time by the collector of customs.

5305. Was that under the necessity of the case?—Yes.

5306. Mr. Forster.] How long did the collector of customs hold that office?—A very long time; he held it from the death of Chief Justice Rankin until the appointment of Mr. Carr as chief justice, which was probably a year and a half after.

5307. Mr. W. Patten.] Do you know what year it was in?—From August 1839 till, I think, the end of 1840, or the beginning of 1841.

5308. Mr. Forster.] It is a part of the duty of the chief justice to deliver the gaol at the Gambia, is it not?—Yes.

5309. Are you aware whether the acting chief justice visited the Gambia for that purpose during the 18 months in question?—Certainly; while I was there Mr. Hook visited it.

5310. Do you know how frequently, in each year, it is the duty of the chief justice to deliver the gaol of the Gambia?—There is no time appointed; but I consider it a great disadvantage both to the Gambia and Sierra Leone, having only one chief justice for the two places.

5311. You are not aware whether the Gambia has not been left for a period of 12 months without a gaol delivery?—No; I think it is possible that it might be the case between the early part of 1838 and 1839, or between the beginning of 1839 and the beginning of 1840. There is very great difficulty in getting any person in a colony like that to fill the situation of chief justice, I mean from among the residents in the colony.

5312. Are you aware of the cause of the office having been vacant for the period of 18 months?—No, not at all; I suppose that the Colonial Government could not find a proper person to send out. One barrister who was appointed was drowned before he reached Sierra Leone.

5313. You are not aware that the applications have generally been extremely numerous for that office whenever it has become vacant?—No.

5314. Mr. Aldam.] What is the system of criminal law in force in the colonies?—The law of England.

5315. Is it modified at all?—Very little; if it is modified, it is modified by local Acts passed by the Governor and Council.

5316. Mr. Evans.] Do you think it a good thing to appoint men of colour to such high offices as those of chief justice or Governor, in any colony where many English gentlemen reside?—Certainly, if they are fit for the situations; but at Sierra Leone there is no feeling whatever except amongst one or two individuals, on the subject of colour; indeed I believe that the most popular man at the present time, and almost during the whole time when I was there, was a man of colour, and who was afterwards Lieutenant-governor; that was Dr. Ferguson, a man, I believe, universally beloved there.

5317. Mr. Forster.] Do you think that the natives have the same confidence and respect for a person of that description, as for a white officer?—I think so; at Sierra Leone, certainly.

5318. Mr. Aldam.] Practically, do you find a great number of men of colour who are fit to fill high situations in the colony?—There are not so many men of colour as white men fit to fill the high situations; but some of the highest situations have been filled in my time by men of colour, and well filled.

5319. Mr. W. Patten.] Have you any other observation which you wish to make upon Dr. Madden’s Report?—At page 28, on “The result of the efforts at present in use for the suppression of the slave trade,” Dr. Madden mentions “The disappointment the captors experience at seeing all their arduous efforts for hindering the slave trade factories from receiving their supplies from the foreign vessels engaged in this trade completely nullified by the proceedings of our own merchants and commanders of merchant-vessels, who supply them with the identical goods and stores which they capture the foreign vessels for conveying to the coast.” Now I wish particularly, with reference to that statement, to say, that foreign vessels are never captured for having goods of any description on board of them. There appears to have been some error entertained as to the grounds on which the vessel called the Dos Amigos, which has been mentioned before, was condemned. That vessel was condemned at Sierra Leone, and in the report which the Commissioners made to Government, they stated that the Dos Amigos had been allowed to lie in Cape Coast Roads fully equipped for the slave trade. It seems to have been supposed that our complaint was, that she was carrying goods for the supply of the slave trade; but no vessel, either British or foreign, has ever been condemned at Sierra Leone on account of the description of goods that she was carrying.

5320. What is the object which you have in calling the attention of the Committee to that statement; is it to deny that statement?—There is a good deal of evidence in the papers before the Committee on the case of the Dos Amigos. The impression seems to have been, that the complaint of the mixed commission court at Sierra Leone against the Governor of Cape Coast Castle, was, that he allowed a vessel to trade at Cape Coast, which was afterwards captured there as a slave trader. Now the ground of complaint was quite distinct, namely, that he allowed a vessel with equipments on board for the slave trade to be in a British harbour with impunity; it had nothing to do with the goods whatever.

5321. Chairman.] You do not believe that it would be lawful to seize and condemn a foreign vessel for conveying to a slave trader goods and stores that are not included in the equipment article?—I do not.

5322. Therefore the expression is incorrect that our commanders of British cruizers must “experience disappointment at seeing all their arduous efforts for hindering the slave trade factories from receiving their supplies from the foreign vessels engaged in this trade completely nullified by the proceedings of our own merchants and commanders of merchant vessels who supply them with the identical goods and stores, which they capture the foreign vessels for conveying to the coast”?—It is impossible that they can feel disappointment about what never happened.

5323. Mr. W. Patten.] Is it your opinion that the law can be altered upon this subject for the better?—I think not; any alteration would, I think, be for the worse. In the next paragraph Dr. Madden states, that he considers it would be desirable that the men-of-war vessels on the coast should only be employed two years. I do not think that any naval officer would agree with him in that respect; it is not till they have been two years on the coast that they become acquainted with the arts of the slave dealers, and thoroughly efficient in the suppression of the slave trade.

5324. In short, it requires considerable experience to ascertain the best means of capturing the slavers?—Certainly; but on all questions relating to service on the coast I would recommend that a naval officer should be examined.

5325. Chairman.] Dr. Madden suggests, “that instead of head-money, or the bounty of 5l. paid for the capture of each slave, the pay of men and officers should be doubled, and the promotion of the former advanced in proportion to the time of service required for it on any other station in a double ratio.” Are you of opinion that any inconvenience arises from the present system of head-money?—I do not think any inconvenience has been found to arise; it was supposed at one time, and stated rather positively in the House of Lords, that such an effect had been produced, but a refutation of the statement was given the same year, for instead of full vessels being taken, there was not one out of 20 that was taken with slaves on board.

5326. You think that the remuneration to the officers is put upon the best and fairest footing now?—I would not say that, because I think the officers are not remunerated sufficiently for empty vessels at present; the sum received for the capture of an empty vessel is so very small, and the sum received for the capture of a full vessel so much larger, that there is no comparison whatever between the two cases; and there is more good done by the capture of an empty vessel, and the service is just as arduous.

5327. Have you ever thought of any other system that could be adopted?—I have suggested an alteration of the bounties on this scale. It appeared that about three times as many vessels were captured under the equipment treaties, as were formerly taken, when only vessels full of slaves were allowed to be captured; and I thought that the remuneration for an empty vessel should be so calculated, that it should amount to about one-third of what the officer would receive if he took a full vessel with the average number of slaves on board. There would be no difficulty in making the calculation, and it would be only fair to the officers to give them that advantage.

5328. No such alteration has been made?—No.

5329. Mr. W. Patten.] You would not diminish the head-money to officers when they captured a vessel full of slaves?—No; it has been diminished very greatly the last 12 years, from 10l. to 5l. a head.

5330. What would be the effect of putting all vessels on the same footing, whether having slaves on board or being empty?—There would be no difficulty.

5331. Chairman.] Would it not be fairer to make the remuneration independent of the casual circumstance of whether the vessel was full or empty?—Yes; it would be taking away the advantage which the officers now enjoy with full vessels, but I think it would be a fair thing.

5332. Mr. Forster.] Are officers entitled to the head-money on slaves taken on shore?—No; the difficulty in that case is, that when taken on shore they are British subjects, if they are taken in British territory, and the British law will not acknowledge that they could be slaves. The difficulty was found some time ago, when a naval officer went to Bulama and captured several hundred slaves who were detained there by the Portuguese; he proceeded in the Admiralty Court, but the judge said, These men are not slaves, they are taken on British territory. The British law will not allow that any person can be a slave on British soil; so that the captor was deprived of his head-money.

5333. A considerable number was taken at the Gallinas by Captain Denman?—Yes.

5334. Will Captain Denman be entitled to head-money upon those persons so captured?—He has never received any thing for them, but I hope he may; if there is any fund from which remuneration on the ordinary scale can be granted, it would be desirable that such cases should be dealt with in the same manner as they would be if brought under the terms of the Act.

5335. Mr. Evans.] If the remuneration was on the tonnage of the vessel, supposing it was on the same scale as it is now, would that be a just way of taking it?—Yes; a remuneration on the tonnage, whether full or empty, would be fair, but the scale should be very much raised; at present it is miserably low.

5336. I am supposing that it was raised to the average of the present remuneration for capturing full and empty vessels?—That would be an improvement.

5337. Mr. W. Patten.] Is there not more difficulty in capturing a vessel with slaves on board than in capturing an empty vessel?—There is much less difficulty in capturing a vessel with slaves on board.

5338. Are not more exertions used when a vessel has slaves on board?—They run away in both cases; but the vessel is impeded greatly whilst she has her cargo of slaves on board, and there is more chance of capture, and the chase is less likely to be long, than with an empty vessel.

5339. Chairman.] The security of condemnation is greater?—Yes.

5340. You stated that there was a difficulty in remunerating the officers when slaves were taken on shore, on the ground of their being considered as British subjects; does that apply to Gallinas?—No; the question did not apply there, but to Bulama, because we claimed the sovereignty of that island. There is no remuneration, under any Act of Parliament, for slaves released under those circumstances which occurred at the Gallinas.

5341. Might there not be some question altogether, whether the release of slaves on shore was within the proper functions of a cruizer?—There might, under some circumstances; but in the case referred to it was a voluntary act on the part of the chief of the country releasing those slaves; they were detained there by persons whom the chief considered as his enemies, by whom he was kept in control, and he was relieved from their control by the Wanderer. There was a positive application made by the chief of the country.

5342. Then it was not, properly speaking, a duty imposed upon the commander engaged upon that station?—No, it would be only a duty under peculiar circumstances.

5343. Therefore such a practice would naturally not be contemplated by any Act of Parliament?—No.

5344. Mr. Forster.] Do you consider the chiefs of the Gallinas opposed to the slave trade?—No.

5345. How did they happen to apply for relief against the slave dealers?—An illegal act had been committed by those chiefs on the subjects of Sierra Leone, and when redress was demanded the excuse offered by the chiefs was, that they were held in subjection by the resident Spaniards there, and that they could not afford the relief which was required by British subjects, or even prevent British subjects being carried into slavery, in consequence of the control which was exercised over them by the Spanish and Portuguese slave traders.

5346. Do you yourself believe that excuse to be true?—I believe that it was stated; I have no means of judging of its truth.

5347. Chairman.] It was a justification for the interference of Captain Denman?—Exactly. By the papers presented to Parliament it appeared that some women and children at Sierra Leone, as far as I recollect the case, were taken down to the Gallinas, and were known to be there, and Captain Denman was instructed by the Governor of Sierra Leone to go in and demand their liberation, and also to remonstrate with the chiefs for the offence which had been committed; and also to inquire how it was that British men-of-war boats going into the river were refused all supplies, were not allowed to water, and were even prevented having intercourse with American and other vessels lying in the river. The principal chief then complained of the treatment which he received from the Spaniards and Portuguese, and he requested to be released from their control, and Captain Denman complied with his request.

5348. Mr. Aldam.] Were there any British subjects found among the slaves captured at the Gallinas?—None that I am aware of, except those particular ones that Captain Denman demanded, and whom he recovered.

5349. Chairman.] Do you believe that there are any instances of kidnapping out of the territory of Sierra Leone?—Very few.

At page 34 of Dr. Madden’s Report, there is this passage: “The charges made for the disposal of these effects,” that is, goods sold by public auction, “the captors state, and I believe with truth, are extremely heavy; and in many cases more than half the prize money that the captors had reason to expect, is swallowed up in the charges made by the various officers at Sierra Leone, employed in taking care, and ultimately disposing of, the effects of the captured vessel. On the following cases of slave-trade vessels sent in for adjudication to the Commission Courts at Sierra Leone, by Captain Tucker, of Her Majesty’s ship Wolverine, the charges here detailed were made.” Then follows the schedule; five out of the nine vessels mentioned in that schedule were sold, while I was in the court, and with respect to those five I obtained the heads of the charges yesterday from the Foreign Office. The Vigilante is the first; the charges were 99l. 1s. 4d., and in that case the sum paid to the collector of customs for duty was 18l. In the Pampeiro, the charges were 63l., the duty was 12l. In the Passos, the charges were 22l. 8s., and the proceeds very small; but in that case the vessel was destroyed at Prince’s Island, and there were also slaves on board, and the whole of those charges, for the vessel was only in port a few days, consisted of the feeding of the slaves, and the duty on the goods which were found on board, and the marshal’s expenses. The reason of the small amount of proceeds was, that there was no vessel, and only a few goods that were brought up in the man-of-war; only a few pieces of cloth, and such things. In the case of the Firmeza, the charges were 1,014l. 7s. 5d., but of that sum the duty paid to the customs was 775l., and the translations were 18l.; so that about 800l. was paid by the marshal on those accounts out of 1,014l.

5350. Mr. W. Patten.] The translations do not then appear to be of that onerous nature to the captor, which Dr. Madden, in the previous part of his statement, says that they are?—They are very heavy in some cases: I have known them as high as 60l. and 70l. In the Emprendador the expenses are 351l. 19s. 1d.; of that sum 172l. was paid in duty, and 33l. in translations, making 205l. out of 351l. Then the other expenses are the five per cent. to the auctioneer, the marshal’s charges for taking charge of the vessel, and boats and labourers landing cargo, and also a premium of about six or six and-one-eighth per cent. difference between the English money and the currency.

5351. Viscount Courtenay.] Are those fees fixed by a scale settled by the court?—The fees were fixed by a regular scale, that has been drawn up on the model of the schedule of fees paid in the Vice-Admiralty Courts, which was approved of by Dr. Lushington and two other gentlemen connected with the Admiralty Court in England, and which schedule was sent out to all the Vice-Admiralty Courts of our colonies, as the rule by which they were to be guided. In many cases our charges were less; but in no case, I believe, were they more than directed in that schedule.

5352. Chairman.] Since those heavy charges which are alluded to by Dr. Madden have been incurred, the duties, which are one principal source of expense, have been modified according to your recommendation?—They have.

5353. What would have been the result of the reduction in that case of the Firmeza, where the duties appear to have been 775l.?—The reduction would have been very great indeed. Without knowing on what articles the duty was imposed, I cannot say; but the duty was changed from a fixed to an ad valorem duty; and in the case of the tobacco and spirits of that vessel, the reduction would have been very great; probably it would have struck off 500l. at least of the 775l.

5354. That evil, therefore, is met to a considerable degree?—The evil is met as much as can be expected; indeed, I do not think that there is any thing whatever now that the captors have to complain of.

5355. It cannot be expected that the goods should be sold for the benefit of the captor, free of duty, in a colony where other articles imported pay duty?—No, certainly not.

5356. Viscount Courtenay.] Is it in the power of the proctors to make additional charges upon those parties?—The arrangement between the proctor and the captor is left to themselves; the court attempted once to interfere with the charges of the proctors, but they were instructed that it was a matter which they had no control over.

5357. Is that settled by a certain rule of etiquette?—It is settled by practice; there is a certain charge that is made for every vessel now, whether she is troublesome or not; but it is a matter over which the court can have no control whatever.

5358. Are the proctors Europeans?—There have seldom been more than three or four at one time practising.

5359. Chairman.] Are they men of education?—Yes; the Queen’s advocate is generally one, and the one who gets the most practice; and there are others who are practising attornies in the other courts, who act as proctors in the Mixed Commission Court.

5360. Are they universally Europeans, educated in England?—I believe every one has been educated in England, and is an European; there is one of them that was born in the West Indies, I believe, but educated in England.

5361. Mr. Forster.] Have the officers of the Mixed Commission the patronage of any of the appointments on the spot?—Of all.

5362. Chairman.] Do they appoint the proctor?—The proctor petitions to be admitted; and latterly, for the last year or two that I was there, I made them undergo an examination, for I found that one or two were applying to be admitted as proctors of the court in order to escape serving on juries, and I therefore made them submit to an examination on the treaties, and on the decisions of the Mixed Courts, and it checked the practice.

5363. At what time were those charges made which are specified in Dr. Madden’s Report?—The five cases out of the nine that I have referred to occurred in 1839, the others subsequently to my leaving the colony.

5364. When were those modifications made which would affect the statement which Dr. Madden has made?—They came into effect after the five cases occurred on which there are those high charges; they came into effect in December, 1839.

5365. Previously to Dr. Madden’s visit to Sierra Leone?—Yes, some time previously.

5366. Have you any further observations to make upon Dr. Madden’s Report?—In page 35 is a passage to which I was referred at the last examination: “The intervention of the whole present establishment of marshals, collectors, surveyors, interpreters, harbour-masters, agents, storekeepers, canoe-hirers, and victuallers of captured ships’ crews, might be dispensed with without inconvenience to the public, and with some advantage to the individuals who are interested in the disposal of the effects.” A great many of those persons do not exist in connexion with our court at all.

5367. Can you state what is the real establishment connected with the adjudication of slave vessels?—There is one marshal; he is paid by fees, on the principle of the schedule that was drawn up in England for the regulation of the Vice-Admiralty Courts in the colonies, and which are very low, I think almost too low; the collector we have nothing to do with; he is the Queen’s officer: as regards the surveyors, we have two surveyors in cases of vessels which are prosecuted for equipment to examine the equipment of the vessel, and to report, and they get a fee for that examination; in cases of vessels taken full of slaves no surveyors are required; it is only in cases of vessels seized for equipment.

5368. That is an officer absolutely necessary for the ascertainment of the facts?—Yes, because we could not allow a man to give evidence in his own case upon such a point as that.

5369. What is the fee?—I think the fee is two guineas a day during his employment; and in order to obtain the services of a respectable man who will go through the disagreeable duty which is imposed upon him in examining a vessel equipped for the slave trade, overhauling her in every part, and whose testimony can be positively relied upon, I do not think that a smaller fee ought to be paid.

5370. Does the survey occupy more than one day?—If it occupies more than a day, he gets another two guineas, but I do not recollect any case of that kind.

5371. What is the interpreter?—There is one interpreter, who interprets between the witness and the registrar when the witness speaks in a foreign language, and I believe he gets 5s. on an examination; he is a poor man; it is very trifling.

5372. Is the harbour-master an officer of the court?—No. Agents we have none. There is no storekeeper; the marshal lands the goods, and under some peculiar circumstances, where they have to be held over for sale, they may be stored, but I think such a thing has hardly occurred in my time.

5373. Canoe-hirers, who are those?—There are canoes employed to land the cargo.

5374. That is a duty which must be discharged and paid for at the ordinary rate in the colony?—Yes.

5375. “Victuallers of captured ships’ crews,” who are those?—We have no such men; the marshal victuals the ship’s crew at the regular rate laid down, 3s. for the officers and 2s. for the men; there are generally only three persons in each case thus provided for.

5376. Is that any thing beyond the absolute expense necessary for the object?—You cannot in a colony where food is so dear lodge and feed an European in a respectable line of life for less than 3s. a day.

5377. Mr. W. Patten.] Would you recommend the uniting of any of those offices together?—The only three officers we have are the marshal, the surveyor, and the commissioner of appraisement and sale, who is not mentioned here, and their offices cannot be united.

5378. Chairman.] Dr. Madden recommended that “the effects of the captured vessel, prior to adjudication should remain in them under the charge of the captors”?—They always do remain in the vessel; Dr. Madden mentions this as a change that ought to take place, but nobody ever thought of landing a vessel’s goods before condemnation, because if the vessel is restored she goes out with all the goods in her. He then says, “On condemnation they should be delivered over by the captors to the collector of the customs, and this part of his service be included in the remuneration of his general duties.” The court could have no control over the collector of the customs, and how he would perform the duty more cheaply than the marshal I do not know; those goods must be landed under the control of the court, and kept under the control of the court till they are sold.

5379. What are the charges on the sale which are alluded to?—The custom-house duties and the auction duty, and those already mentioned.

5380. The custom-house duties are the duties which you alluded to as having been subsequently reduced?—Yes.

5381. Which did press upon the goods in proportion to their quality?—Yes; Dr. Madden says in the last sentence, “I beg to be understood as not meaning to attribute, in the slightest degree, to these gentlemen the disadvantages of the system that is adopted for the disposal of the effects of the condemned vessel. This system has grown up to its present amount of abuse, I believe, without their sanction, and I should think, from what I have seen of these gentlemen, it exists without their approval.” It does not; if there had been any abuse I should have been responsible for it, of course, during the time that I was there; but I believe no abuse whatever existed which the court could control. In the case of translations, we had no translator till we applied to the Government, and indeed the necessity did not arise till lately, because when you could only capture vessels full of slaves, you did not require any translations; I believe there is no abuse whatever, and it certainly is not without the sanction of the court, if it exists.

5382. Viscount Courtenay.] Is there any storehouse belonging to the Vice-Admiralty Court, where goods, supposing them to be of a suspicious character, if landed, are kept?—There is a storehouse connected with the mixed commissions, where the coppers and shackles, and the iron fittings for the open hatchways, are lodged.

5383. Under whose charge is that?—It is in the residence of the registrar; the registrar is required to be a resident officer, on account not only of the books and papers which he has constantly under his charge, but on account of the equipments of condemned vessels, which are also kept by him.

5384. It would be, therefore, very irregular that any of those equipments should be kept in any place but under the custody of the registrar?—Certainly.

5385. Supposing this to have been stated, that a number of leg-irons and other things, which had been landed from a slave vessel condemned in the Vice-Admiralty Court, had been deposited in a public shed on the wharf, and that they had been neglected by the officer of the Vice-Admiralty Court, whose duty it was to have put them in a place of safety; if that was so, should you say that that was irregular and unusual?—It cannot happen in our court; if such a thing were to happen, the marshal would be immediately dismissed; but the thing never happens, because there is a regular system of duty; but the Vice-Admiralty Court has no office, it has no storekeeper, and no means of carrying on its duty efficiently.

5386. What would have been the regular course in such a case as that mentioned in this paper?—I do not know what course the Vice-Admiralty Court would pursue, but with us, equipment articles are landed and carried up to the registrar. There were several rooms, when I left, completely filled with these things, and occasionally, when the Government requires coppers for the use of the Liberated African Department, we hand them over to them, and they are supplied to vessels carrying over recruits to the West Indies; but in no case do the coppers from the condemned vessels go to anybody that we do not know will make a good use of them.

5387. Is the same person that is marshal of the Mixed Commission Court marshal of the Vice-Admiralty Court?—No; it is a rule that is laid down very strictly, not to allow any sort of connexion between the two courts, as it would only produce irregularity and confusion.

5388. Chairman.] Have you any other observation to make upon Dr. Madden’s Report?—In the last sentence of his Report he says, that parties should not be allowed to become purchasers of slave ships, or the equipments of condemned slavers, unless they “enter into a bond that such ships or equipments shall not be employed in slave trade objects, on pain of incurring the penalty of fine to the amount of double the value of the property thus employed.” Now the Act of Parliament positively requires, that if any equipments are on board a vessel, a bond shall be given, and that no vessel shall be cleared out by the custom-house unless a bond is given.

5389. Is there any thing in the present state of the law which makes it illegal to sell a vessel bought at Sierra Leone immediately into the hands of a person who shall employ her in the slave trade?—Nothing whatever.

5390. Mr. W. Patten.] Is there not an Act of Parliament which does prevent any body knowingly dealing with a slave dealer?—Yes, there is; but the difficulty would be to prove the guilty knowledge of the fact, that the man to whom the vessel is sold intended to employ that vessel in the slave trade.

5391. Mr. Forster.] What Act of Parliament do you allude to when you say that there is an Act which forbids persons selling a vessel or goods to slave dealers?—The 5 Geo. 4, c. 113.

5392. Mr. W. Patten.] In that Act of Parliament, does the word “knowingly” apply to knowledge of the fact that the parties are slave dealers, or of the fact that the goods so sold are to be employed in the slave trade?—To the latter. The second clause of that Act declares that it shall not be lawful to ship, tranship, and so on, or to contract for the shipping or transhipping to be employed in accomplishing any of the objects or the contracts in relation to the objects, which objects and contracts have hereinbefore been declared unlawful; but by the 7th and 10th clauses penalties are imposed only upon a party upon its being shown that he “knowingly and wilfully” shipped and laded goods to be employed in the slave trade.

5393. It does not apply to his knowledge of the fact of the man being a dealer in slaves?—I am not aware that it does; a great deal may come under the general term of “aiding and abetting” the slave trade; but in all the penal clauses of that Act the words “knowingly and wilfully” are introduced.

5394. How do you account for the governor of a British colony commencing his proclamation with these words: “Whereas by the laws of Great Britain, and more particularly by the provisions of the Act of Parliament passed in the fifth year of the reign of his late Majesty George the Fourth, all British subjects are prohibited in the most express and positive terms, and under the most severe penalties, from aiding, abetting, or trading with, directly or indirectly, all or any vessels or vessel engaged, or about to be engaged, in the slave trade, or fitted with that view and purpose”?—The prohibitory clauses of the Act are very strong indeed; they would seem to comprehend every kind of dealing with slave traders; but it is the penal clauses which would prevent convictions.

5395. Chairman.] If you could convict the party selling the vessel to the slave dealer with a guilty knowledge of the purpose to which the vessel was to be appropriated, you have in the Act of Parliament all that can be required?—Yes.

5396. Mr. W. Patten.] Does the same observation apply to goods?—To every part of the Act. I believe in every instance where prohibitions are given in the Act the penal clauses referring to the prohibition contain the words “knowingly and wilfully.”

5397. Chairman.] Therefore those acts are all of them unlawful, but the difficulty is in proving the guilt?—Yes. You may possibly prove the guilty knowledge by letters found on board the vessel.

5398. If you could ascertain that any merchant at Sierra Leone sold vessels or goods to a party, knowing that such vessel was to be employed in the slave trade, he might be convicted under the Act of Parliament?—Yes; he would be prosecuted and convicted under the 5th of Geo. 4.

5399. Mr. W. Patten.] Should you imply that this was guilty knowledge, that the vessel should be sold to a notorious slave dealer on any part of the coast, who was perfectly known to have no legitimate traffic of his own?—That is a legal question which would be decided in the common law courts, whether a guilty knowledge might be implied from particular circumstances, though it could not be proved directly.

5400. Mr. Forster.] You have given an opinion upon the construction of the words “knowingly and wilfully” used in the Act of Parliament; upon what authority have you given that opinion?—The Act cannot be misunderstood; I think no person can read it without seeing the meaning of it, whether lawyer or not.

5401. To sell goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco, for example, would that, in your opinion, bring a party within the meaning of the Act?—No, not unless you could prove that he sold them knowing that they were to be applied to an unlawful purpose.

5402. Chairman.] The difficulty, then, is not in understanding the purpose and object of the Act, but in proving the offence?—Yes; the difficulty is in proving the guilty knowledge, and that is the only difficulty.

5403. Sir T. D. Acland.] Was not the principal design of that Act to prevent persons from aiding in fitting up vessels for the direct and notorious purpose of engaging in the slave trade, and for no other purpose?—Yes, it was one object.

5404. Therefore, would not any person selling shackles, or any thing else that was notoriously employed in procuring slaves, or in exchange for slaves, be brought under the Act?—If you could prove that at the time he made them he contemplated that they would be employed in the slave trade, he would be brought within the purpose of the Act.

5405. If he sold shackles to vessels engaged in the slave trade?—I should think he would be brought within it then, because the guilty knowledge would be properly inferred in that case; but shackles may be made in England, and kept on board merchant vessels to be employed on the crew.

5406. Mr. Forster.] You do not think, then, that the intention of that Act was to prevent British subjects and British capital from being engaged in partnership, or having an interest in the slave trade itself, and nothing beyond that?—Yes, I think the intention of the Act was to prevent such engagements.

5407. Do you think that it goes beyond that?—I think that is all we require, that they should have no connexion with the traffic.

5408. How would you bring the party within that Act who sold goods, having no interest or partnership in the transaction to which they were subsequently applied?—In that case I think the Act would not reach him.

5409. What becomes, then, of the guilty knowledge of which you have spoken so much?—No guilty knowledge can be proved against the party in the case you suppose.

5410. Chairman.] But it may exist?—Yes, it may exist; but unless you can prove it, the penalties of the Act would not reach him.

5411. Do you conceive that the act of selling a vessel or goods that may be hereafter employed, or that shall be, to the knowledge of the person selling them, employed in the slave trade, falls within the meaning of the Act, unless that person is to have a share in the profits of the transaction?—Yes, I believe it does include that; I think that it forbids aiding and assisting in every way, even as servants, or employed in boats.

5412. Mr. Forster.] Then you think that a British subject selling goods to Pedro Blanco, or any other slave dealer, with the impression on his mind, or, in fact, the conviction on his mind, that those goods would be employed in the slave trade, would come within the meaning of that Act?—Yes certainly; but the difficulty would be in the proof of the guilty knowledge. Such an act as that is certainly intended to come within the Act; not that I would recommend that those words, “knowingly and wilfully,” should be taken out entirely; I think it might be a dangerous thing to do so; but I am speaking of what, in my opinion, the meaning of the Act is, namely, that it is absolutely necessary in every case to prove the guilty knowledge, in order to bring the party accused within the penalties of the Act.

5413. In what way would you prove the mental impression upon the man’s mind?—There is the difficulty.

5414. Do you think that any British Act of Parliament would impose penalties for the mental impression upon a man’s mind?—I have stated that I am not prepared to say whether or not the words “knowingly and wilfully” might be advantageously omitted from the Act, but a guilty knowledge may be inferred from particular circumstances.

5415. Then you consider that that Act of Parliament is an Act against constructive slave trading?—No.

5416. Chairman.] You consider it to be an Act against aiding and abetting the slave trade in as many ways as the Act of Parliament can reach it?—Yes; there is no Act that I ever read that is so general and comprehensive in its terms; but unfortunately it is limited, as it must be limited, in its application.

5417. Mr. Forster.] Can you quote the authority of any British lawyer for the opinions you have expressed with respect to the construction of that Act?—Yes, I have heard opinions expressed on the subject from the Bench at Sierra Leone repeatedly, and by educated lawyers.

5418. In the case of a British merchant selling goods to a person who was known to have no other means of gaining his livelihood, except by the slave trade, the party selling the goods would in your opinion be liable to the penalties of that Act?—It is the same thing in that case; you must prove guilty knowledge, direct or implied.

5419. In selling goods to a man who has no other means of gaining his livelihood than by applying those goods for the purposes of the slave trade, there can be no doubt of the guilty knowledge?—I should think not; but if I were a juror I should have to satisfy my own conscience that there was a guilty knowledge. I am no lawyer; this is only the opinion of a private person.

5420. Can you conceive a stronger proof of guilty knowledge than such a transaction as that would furnish?—I think I should decide that there was a guilty knowledge, taking the case supposed, that the seller knew there was no other way in which the purchaser would employ the goods sold to him than in the slave trade; if I were a juror I think I should find him guilty in that case under the Act of Parliament; I should consider the guilty knowledge to be proved.

5421. Chairman.] You appear to be in favour of the proposal for taking bond from the person selling the vessel, that such vessel shall not be employed within a certain period in the slave trade?—That they should take bond that the vessel should not be immediately sold to a slave dealer; but the difficulty would be in following the vessel through successive transfers.

5422. Can you suggest any means of so framing that bond as to escape the difficulty which pervades the enforcing the provisions of the existing Act of Parliament, on account of the necessity of establishing guilty knowledge?—I think I could to a certain extent. The case once came before me at Sierra Leone; I was consulted by one of the officers of the Mixed Commission Court on the subject of the sale of a vessel of his; he knew perfectly well that if he had sold that vessel to a slave dealer, we should immediately dismiss him from his situation, and he came to consult me respecting the person who had offered to buy the vessel. He had inquired about him, and there was some sort of suspicion, and I told him that I could not allow him, as an officer of the court, to sell this vessel to that person, unless he took bond to a sufficient amount that the vessel should not be sold again to a slave dealer, so that if the vessel, whilst in the possession of the person to whom he sold her, should be captured, the bond should be considered as violated, and he should be liable to the penalty. But I do not think you can carry the restriction beyond the first purchaser: but if the vessel, whilst in the hands of the first purchaser, should be seized for slave dealing, the penalty of the bond might be enforced.

5423. But would you not find it difficult to make that effective, from the facility that exists for the transfer of the vessel to other parties?—Yes; I do not think the restriction could be carried beyond the first purchaser.

5424. Would reaching the first purchaser be any great additional difficulty in the way of employing the prize vessels in the slave trade?—It would in Sierra Leone be a difficulty to some small extent; because, where only one or two persons are engaged in purchasing vessels to be afterwards sold to slave dealers, it is not likely that there would be any intermediate person between the seller and the Spanish or Portuguese purchaser at Gallinas, or any slave station in the neighbourhood.

5425. Would it not be very easy to establish a system of third persons acting as a medium between the slave dealer and the purchaser, who should protect the purchaser at the prize sale from the penalties of such a bond?—It might be done; but the difficulty would in that case be, to get two men to endure the odium of such employment; the difficulty would be doubled.

5426. Could not a vessel be sold to a subordinate party at Sherboro’ or Gallinas, not the slave dealer, but the agent of the slave dealer, who might be compelled immediately to hand over the vessel to the slave dealer?—It might be done.

5427. Mr. Forster.] Would you propose, by bond or otherwise, to make it illegal that the purchaser of a prize vessel at Sierra Leone should sell that vessel, on her arrival in London, to the Spanish merchants Messrs. Zulueta & Co.?—No; I would not certainly render it illegal.

5428. Then that being your opinion, in what way can you imagine any restriction to be devised for the purpose of regulating the sales of the vessels after they may be purchased at Sierra Leone?—I have mentioned that the restriction could only last, in my opinion, whilst the vessel remained in the hands of the second purchaser; that is, the person who purchases her from the highest bidder at the auction; I do not think you could follow her beyond that.

5429. Then you would prevent the actual purchaser at Sierra Leone from selling the vessel to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. in London?—No, I would not.

5430. Then where is the value of the restriction you would impose?—The value is this, and it is not of great value, that if that vessel, whilst sailing under the name of Zulueta & Co. is captured and condemned as being engaged in the slave trade, you will come upon the person who sold that vessel to Zulueta & Co. for the amount of the bond.

5431. You think it would be just to make the first purchaser of the vessel responsible for the subsequent employment of that vessel, after he had sold her to Messrs. Zulueta & Co.?—Yes, as long as it remained in the hands of Zulueta & Co.; and I would mention further, that an advantage which I did not perceive before would result from it, that the man who sells the vessel in the case supposed to Zulueta, would not be very happy under such a sale, unless he got a security from Zulueta for the amount of the bond, and in such a case, whenever doubtful characters came forward as purchasers, the amount of the bond would be an addition to the price paid for the vessel.

5432. When a prize vessel is brought into the public market in London, why should this vessel be subject to regulations different from any other vessel in the London market?—Because the vessel being purchased at Sierra Leone, at one of our sales, would be likely to be a vessel fitted for the slave trade, and for nothing else.

5433. But is it not well known that there are many vessels in the London market equally well adapted for that purpose as many of those vessels?—I think not.

5434. Sir T. D. Acland.] Do you not think that if a bond were given under penalty of forfeiture, if in the course of a certain time, say one, two, or three years, that vessel were detected as being engaged in the slave trade, the party giving the bond would take very good care to keep her out of that mischief?—Yes, I think he would.

5435. Would he not take very good care that the vessel should not get into hands through which that risk could be brought upon himself?—He would be interested in doing so.

5436. Chairman.] Other parties would secure themselves upon each successive transfer by successive bonds to the amount of their own liability?—The amount of the bond might be more than the value of the vessel considerably.

5437. Mr. Forster.] Then the result of that would be that there must be a series of bonds running through all the subsequent sales of the vessel?—Yes.

5438. Mr. W. Patten.] You have stated that in your opinion the breaking up of all the vessels would be far preferable?—Yes, the breaking up of all the vessels would be one of the best things that could possibly be done.

5439. Chairman.] What proportion of the vessels that have been taken within your knowledge have been so broken up?—It is only since the Spanish treaty came into operation in 1836 that they have been broken up at all; since that time more than two-thirds of the vessels condemned have been broken up.

5440. Sir T. D. Acland.] Would it be possible to fix the bond upon the vessel itself?—No; I do not think it would.

5441. Chairman.] You have seen a good deal of the effects of British trade upon the coast of Africa, especially as connected with Sierra Leone?—I cannot say that I have seen very much, but I have seen something.

5442. You have seen that British manufactures are, to some extent at least, employed as instruments of barter for slaves?—Yes.

5443. Indirectly through Brazil and Cuba, and from England, goods are sold to persons who would use them in barter for slaves?—Yes.

5444. Therefore, to a certain extent, British trade gives facilities for the slave trade?—Yes.

5445. Do you conceive that it would be possible, with advantage to the cause of putting down the slave trade, to have any further restrictions upon British trade on the coast of Africa: do you believe that it would be advisable to prohibit absolutely dealing in lawful articles with slavers or with slave factories?—I consider it to be undesirable to impose any restrictions.

5446. Will you state your reasons?—I think that no restrictions whatever could be drawn up applying to any description of goods that might not materially interfere with the legitimate trade.

5447. And you believe that it would be a serious injury to the people of Africa, and to the cause of civilization in Africa, if lawful trade were interfered with and impeded?—I do; I would not have any restrictions whatever upon the commercial intercourse of our vessels, to which only of course our law would apply, with any port on the coast, whatever her character was with regard to slave trading.

5448. You conceive that although some additional facility to the slave trade may arise from the lawful traffic, on the balance much more good accrues?—I think so. I think there are positive advantages in gaining an entrance for our vessels to those ports where the slave trade is carried on: that information of the character of the people and of their mode of trade is obtained, and facilities offered to the squadron cruizing on the coast and visiting those rivers; and also that at any time, if, from the checks given to the slave trade by more stringent cruizing in that part, the natives should be desirous of turning their attention to lawful commerce, there are the means of doing it at once ready to their hands. It might happen anywhere that legitimate trade, from strict cruizing, would become a desirable one for the natives; but they would not have the means of carrying it on if British vessels were forbidden to enter those ports.

5449. Is it desirable that the natives should see a lawful trade offered to them by the parties and nations who are now connected with the unlawful traffic themselves?—I think it is.

5450. If you prohibited the access of English vessels and English trade to the suspected ports, should you be able under any existing treaties, or should you be likely to be able under any future treaties, to prohibit the access to those ports of foreign vessels engaged in the supply off lawful articles?—I do not think it could be done.

5451. Unless you could so prohibit the access of foreign vessels, you could not in any way prevent the supply of those articles which are requisite to be used in barter for slaves?—No.

5452. Then, on the whole, you would gain nothing in the way of interruption to the slave trade, and you would lose many advantages for the obstruction of the slave trade which you now possess by the free access of English vessels even to the suspected ports?—That is my opinion.

5453. Sir T. D. Acland.] May not the carrying on of legitimate commerce, even with slave-dealing natives, be used as a means of inducing them by negotiation to give up dealing in slaves?—It may be so, certainly.

5454. Mr. Forster.] How did this merchant at Sierra Leone come to be regarded with suspicion and mistrust who traded to the Gallinas, if, in your opinion, such trade is beneficial for the civilization of Africa, and the suppression of the slave trade?—I have not stated that exactly; I would not impose any restrictions by law on the entrance of any vessel, whether for lawful or unlawful purposes; but such freedom does not release the merchant who sells his goods, knowing that they will be employed for the slave trade, from the responsibility of doing so.

5455. You would prevent merchants and vessels frequenting such places as the Gallinas, if it was to be inferred that they could not go there and dispose of their goods without being subject to the charge of being aiders and abettors in the slave trade?—I think that it is very desirable that some regulations should be drawn up for the guidance of the men-of-war on the coast, with regard to vessels engaged in traffic; there appears to be a sort of impression now, that it is their duty to interfere with all vessels trading with slave-trading ports, and it is quite a misunderstanding on their part.

5456. Mr. Aldam.] If there is an establishment formed, where both the lawful and the unlawful traffic is carried on in goods, do you think it is desirable to prevent English vessels from trading to that establishment?—I think it is undesirable.

5457. Chairman.] It is suggested in Dr. Madden’s Report, that there should be some further acts of treaty, with a view of developing the resources of the colony?—I quite agree with Dr. Madden in that. In the year 1836 I was before a Committee of the House of Commons, when my evidence went particularly to that point. I thought that the policy of the British Government in rejecting territory, when they had legally and properly acquired it, and confining themselves entirely to the peninsula of Sierra Leone, was very injurious.

5458. The peninsula of Sierra Leone does not afford adequate employment and resources?—I think the employment and resources are sufficient for the population at present, but the land is not so fertile as the land that we then possessed, and which the Government at home required the Government there to give up, and restore to the natives; also the destruction of our sovereignty and property in that country will not allow us to take cognizance of slave-dealing transactions occurring in that territory.

5459. Mr. Forster.] Do you think it desirable to extend the limits of the colony at Sierra Leone?—I do.

5460. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in effecting that extension?—None whatever.

5461. Do you think that it would impose upon the British Government any great expense or responsibility to carry that out?—I do not think it would.

5462. Chairman.] Would it be desirable for the trade of the colony, if possible, to extend the limits of it, so as to give to a larger portion of the produce of the soil the advantage of British growth in the English markets?—I do not think advantage would be derived in that way; because no produce that is now brought down to Sierra Leone, and passes through Sierra Leone to England, is considered as foreign produce, either teak wood, palm-oil, rice, or any thing else.

5463. Does teak, for instance, take its character from the port of Sierra Leone?—Yes.

5464. Is it landed there?—Teak that is embarked in the river Sierra Leone is put on board the vessel in British waters.

5465. Where?—At Banee Island Roads.

5466. What distance from Freetown is that?—About fifteen miles.

5467. Is it floated down so far, and then put on board at that place?—Yes.

5468. Have you considered the question of emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies?—I have.

5469. Will you state generally what opinion you have formed on it?—I have formed a very favourable opinion of it. On the 15th of February 1841, at the desire of Lord John Russell, I expressed my views fully upon this subject, in a communication which I then made to the Colonial Office; I stated the classes from whom emigration might be expected, and though this was before any scheme of emigration was carried into effect, nothing has occurred since which has at all altered my opinion; and indeed just what I then expected has happened. It was supposed that there was a considerable desire on the part of the inhabitants to emigrate; such a desire I stated did not exist; that a few liberated Africans had been anxious to go to the country from which they had been taken as slaves, to join their friends, and that many Maroons had been anxious to go back to the West Indies, from which they had been taken, and where they had friends; but that beyond that, there was no general desire for emigration; that if such desire was requisite, it would be necessary to create it. That there was no difficulty at any time thrown in the way of persons anxious to leave the colony by the Governor and Council there; that on the contrary, just before I left, an application had been made by a party of liberated Africans to the Governor asking him to send them back to Badagry, on the coast, and the Governor and Council replied, that they might go if they pleased; but that the Government would not be at any expense in sending them. A few did go and returned, and since that time emigration has been going on to a considerable extent to Badagry, and at present there are a large number of liberated Africans there, who are finding their way across to the Niger; and in a letter I received a few days ago from a gentleman at Sierra Leone, he mentions that liberated Africans are still going to Badagry, and that it is likely to become an important place. There were a few Maroons, before emigration was encouraged by any agents from the West Indies, who purchased a vessel at Sierra Leone and went over to Jamaica, and their arrival was mentioned by Sir Charles Metcalfe, in one of the despatches which was received before my letter was written. I recommended that two persons should be selected from each of the principal tribes of liberated Africans, and sent over to the West Indies to report upon the prospects that were held out to emigrants by the colonies there, and that their wives and families should be supported during their absence, and also themselves paid a certain monthly allowance until their return; and I have no doubt that if that plan had been followed, a very large emigration from Sierra Leone would have taken place, and I regret much that it was not done.