TESTIMONY OF PROF. REVILO PENDLETON OLIVER (continued 2)

Mr. Oliver. I have my one copy and I may say that this speech consists of 39 and a little more typed pages including 2 or 3 inserts here and there——

Mr. Jenner. You might find that section dealing with this precise subject.

Mr. Oliver. And that the first 27 pages deal with questions of the impression produced on the public mind by shownmanship.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, what do you mean by that, Doctor?

Mr. Oliver. I mean the ease with which many people confuse actors with the roles they play and so carry from a performance an impression that it has a reality that it did not have.

Actually, I start out by pointing out that whenever anybody goes into a theater to see Hamlet for example, he more or less consciously tells himself that he is going into that theater to undergo an illusion. He knows perfectly well the actors are not Hamlet, and the other characters are feigned—that in real life the actors may not resemble the characters they impersonate at all, and so on.

And then I took up the whole question of the socialist mentality as exhibited in history. I made some comments on the letters of objurgation that I had received, for I was still illustrating that mentality, and I spoke briefly about the general suppositions of the people called “liberal intellectuals.” I did not begin to discuss the facts of the assassination until late on page 27.

In other words, more than two-thirds of my speech dealt with these general—of my pitch, dealt with these general considerations.

Now, the particular passage from which that quotation was taken begins on page 26:

Mr. Jenner. Would you read it into the record, please?

Mr. Oliver. This entire passage?

Mr. Jenner. Is it very long?

Mr. Oliver. It is approximately three typewritten pages.

Mr. Jenner. Why don’t you go ahead and read it.

Mr. Oliver. “The second propaganda line is the one that I mentioned in the February issue of American Opinion when I was not certain that the Bolsheviks would dare to use the United States as they were then using it elsewhere in the world. You will find that line set forth in a book by one Joachim Joesten, who claims to be a Dane who migrated to Soviet Russia and later to the United States. It is entitled ‘Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy?’ And it is published by a publishing house headed by Aldo Marzani whom you may know better under one of his aliases as Tony Wales or Whales.

“He was identified as a member of the Communist Party when he was employed in our super secret ‘intelligence’ organization, the OSS, and in the State Department. Of course there was no conflict of interest there. I can’t remember whether it was under his alias or under his own name that he served a term in prison for perjury. So you see the book comes from an appropriate source. If you have any doubts remaining just note the same firm also publishes puke on Americans excreted by one Stanley or Sammy Steiner, writing under the alias of Mike Newberry. Stanley also writes for the Communist Worker. The book ‘Oswald: An Assassin or Fall Guy’ contains a few preposterous fantasies but for the most part it operates by taking the facts that are publicly known and simply turning them upside down. That way you see they will look just right to liberal intellectuals.”

Mr. Jenner. By the way, he uses—would he be classified as a liberal by most people or does he claim to be?

Mr. Oliver. I think he tries to give that——

Mr. Jenner. I am curious now.

Mr. Oliver. My opinion is that of the people who read that book perhaps 75 percent will say to themselves this man is a great liberal, a believer in civil rights, et cetera. And a champion of the underdog.

“It starts, for example, with the strange detour in the Presidential procession that made Kennedy an easy mark for a marksman in the Book Depository—to which, I believe, I was the first to draw attention. But the author argues that a sweet little Communist like Oswald couldn’t possibly have known about it, much less had the target set up for him. Poor little fellow. The detour must have been arranged so that the nasty rightwing extremists could frame him for the assassination.

“And the book makes much of the possible activities of our Central Intelligence Agency. This is designed for readers who have memories so poor that they will not recall the long list of events from the fake invasion of Cuba known as Operation Judas because it betrayed the anti-Communist Cubans into the hands of Castro, to the recent assassinations in Vietnam in which our Central Intelligence Agency with its army of 17 to 40 thousand faceless agents and the billions of dollars with which you taxpayers supply it every year, has evidently done the work of the Soviet Secret Police. It is designed for readers who will not remember that a defector from the Soviet Secret Police has sworn that his colleagues in the Central Intelligence Agency used your money directly to subsidize, (a) the Soviet Secret Police; (b) the official Communist Party in Italy; and (c) the official Communist Party in the United States.”

I should interpolate that this is obviously a reference to Lieutenant Colonel Goleniewski.

Mr. Jenner. Whom you have heretofore identified?

Mr. Oliver. Pardon me?

Mr. Jenner. Whom you have heretofore identified, or at least you made reference to him earlier in the afternoon?

Mr. Oliver. I do not recall that.

“On the contrary, the author of this incredible hogwash like the authors of some other books recently published expects you to believe that the CIA is a rightwing organization probably run by the John Birch Society. I do not know whether Oswald was paid by the CIA, but I hear that there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was. There would be nothing improbable in that. The CIA worked for Castro in Cuba before he came to power.”

And I will interpolate here that that is a reference primarily to the testimony of Ambassador Earl Smith before the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, and also a reference to the testimony of the elected president of Cuba who was driven from Cuba by Castro, and there are some further indications of some significance in at least the second edition of Nathaniel Weyl’s “Red Star Over Cuba,” and still further indications in a recent book that apologizes for the CIA’s fiasco in Cuba and at the same time criticizes them rather severely. I am sorry, the names do not come to my mind at the moment; the authors are two newsmen, I believe, both of them with New York newspapers.

Possibly one from the Times and one from the Herald Tribune. It is just a vague impression.

“It is believed to have instigated and financed the Communist smear against General Walker.” I interpolate here and refer to the——

Mr. Jenner. When you say interpolate, you mean the source from which——

Mr. Oliver. Yes, I am now interpolating from my speech, text of my speech, to say in making that statement I was relying on the considerations that the Central Intelligence Agency may be operating Inter-national Media, the publishers of the “Oversexed Weekly,” as it is generally called, “Overseas Weekly” as it appears on the masthead, the three editions of Drum in Africa, and some other publications. That is partly based on the identity of a stockholder and officer of this supposed corporation with an officer in the fictitious corporation that was set up to cover Radio Swan.

Mr. Jenner. Cover what?

Mr. Oliver. Radio Swan, which has since been admitted to be a CIA operation.

I then continue, “They contrived and financed the assassination of anti-Communists in other parts of the world, notably General Trujillo in the Dominican Republic.”

That is based—I interpolate now,—that is based primarily on the assertions of General Espaillat in his book “Trujillo, the Last of the Caesars.”

I may say at the time of the assassination of General Trujillo I referred from the facts that the only people who could have arranged it were either the CIA or the Soviet secret police.

Then I continue. “And there seems to be no good reason for supposing that it could not use your money to carry out assassinations in the Communist interest in the country.”

Mr. Jenner. The “it” is what, CIA?

Mr. Oliver. CIA.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a conclusion you reach or is that based—what is your source of that statement?

Mr. Oliver. Well, that is a conclusion that I reach primarily on the grounds that if you carry out assassinations abroad you may carry them out at home, and secondarily on the suspicions which obviously can be no more than suspicions, concerning the death of Povl Bang-Jensen.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you who is he, in my ignorance I will ask you if you can identify him?

Mr. Oliver. He is the member of the United Nations staff who attempted to communicate to the Central Intelligence Agency the names of certain Soviet agents in the United Nations who were, (A) willing to defect, in fact eager to do that; and (B) willing to identify agents of the Soviet Secret Police in the State Department and CIA. He is reported to have communicated his information in confidence to an officer of the CIA and very shortly thereafter he met his death in what was called a suicide although most improbably such. The CIA is reported to have been shadowing him at the time of his death.

On those principal data, my statement here is an inference. If they can assassinate General Trujillo in the Dominican Republic there is nothing impossible about their doing something similar on American soil.

I continued. “But what Joesten’s poisonous book is trying to tell its readers—and I warn you this is the kind of topsy turvy propaganda is certain to convince liberal intellectuals is that Kennedy was really assassinated by the wicked Fascist police of Dallas, Texas, who then framed sweet little Oswald to conceal their crime. And the author all but says outright that those awful ‘Fascist’ police are agents of the John Birch Society and General Walker.” I think that is sufficient.

Mr. Jenner. As I recall, I am not attempting to quote this, all I did was make a cryptic note, somewhere, in what you have just read the substance is “But I hear that he was” that is, that he was paid by the CIA. Would you find that spot in your quote?

Mr. Oliver. The exact quotation is, “I do not know whether Oswald was paid by the CIA but I hear there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was.”

Mr. Jenner. And from what source, on what source did you base the statement that you heard that there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was?

Mr. Oliver. Principally, although not exclusively, an article, again by Henshaw in the National Enquirer at about the time that Earl Warren made his statement that the findings would not be released during the lifetime of the people then living.

Mr. Jenner. If you will pardon my correcting you, even that newspaper account didn’t say that the Chief Justice said that the findings of the Commission would not be released.

Mr. Oliver. That the “full truth” wasn’t that it?

Mr. Jenner. I think not. It will be quoted in the report. This occurred a long time ago, and I have forgotten just what it was.

Mr. Oliver. Yes, this is in the National Enquirer for March 3, 1964.

Mr. Jenner. Could I identify that and then return it to you when we have made a copy?

That is either a photostat or a Xerox reprint that is marked Oliver Exhibit No. 7. It is entitled—The particular article by John Henshaw, “Washington Pipeline by John Henshaw,” and then the heading is “Moscow plotted JFK assassination—U.S. Government financed Oswald,” place-lined Washington, D.C.

Does that summarily describe the exhibit?

Mr. Oliver. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And that is your source?

Mr. Oliver. That is my primary source, and I believe the first source; the statement picked up elsewhere in the press. Of course this is supported.

Mr. Jenner. Is what, sir?

Mr. Oliver. This is supported by the longer article by Mr. Henshaw that has already been placed in the record as Exhibit No. 5.

Mr. Jenner. Oliver Exhibit No. 5?

Mr. Oliver. Wherein it is stated that the reason given either as an explicit statement or by implication for intervening to prevent the Dallas police from arresting Rubenstein and Oswald for the attempted murder of General Walker was that they were agents of the Central Intelligence Agency—which you see confirms the statement in the earlier report.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the news item to which I referred, that is the Washington Post of August 30, 1964, page 19, also states that “Oliver also said that under orders from Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara the Army ‘began to rehearse for the funeral more than a week before the funeral.’” Would you find that, please, in your speech in which you made reference to that subject?

Mr. Oliver. I may say that is typical of the kind of so-called journalism practiced by the Washington Post and similar publications. In the course of my speech——

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify the pages if they are numbered?

Mr. Oliver. On typewritten page, beginning on typewritten page 12, going through to approximately the middle of page 16 and including a little insert 13-A, I discussed the effect of theatrical performances on the human mind, and the way in which illusions may be carried over from the performance to reality. I begin by using a performance of Hamlet as an illustration, analyzing what happens there. In the following paragraph I elaborate on the point that “A great many naive and unreflective people do confuse actors with the roles they play in the performances.”

And I illustrate that with a story which I hope was amusing about an acquaintance of mine who witnessed a brawl in a tavern between two men, one of whom was convinced that an actress who played effectively the role of the pure and virginal heroine must be pure and virginal herself.

I then went on and using a slightly different illustration but developing the same point, I mentioned a television show about a character called Superman, and what was told to me by a vice president of the corporation that wrote and produced the show, to wit, that although this being was represented as a person who could leap a hundred feet in the air, and could bend a railroad rail with his hands, nevertheless many of the viewers thought that he was real and wrote letters to him asking for his help.

And I then went on.

Mr. Jenner. Shades of Orson Welles.

Mr. Oliver. Except that I believe these letterwriters were not financed so far as I know.

Mr. Jenner. I did not mean to imply that.

Mr. Oliver. I then went on “As another example of the ease with which illusions are induced, let us take one detail in the really spectacular show that was put on at the funeral of President Kennedy. That was a mass performance which for sheer technical virtuousity certainly deserves to rank with such spectacles in the cinema as Cleopatra and Ben Hur. Now, I made it a point to talk to many people who had seen that spectacle on television, and I found that all of them very firmly believed that the caparisoned horse named ‘Black Jack’ in the procession belonged to Mrs. Kennedy and was her favorite mount. That is entirely false.

“As most of you may not know for the national press never reported it, the headquarters detachment of our Army under orders from McNamara’s office began to rehearse for the funeral more than a week before the assassination, and ‘Black Jack’ was an old army horse who was selected at the time of the first rehearsal for the role that he played in the real performance. Incidentally, he was a horse who had never been broken to the saddle and consequently never ridden by anyone. That is what was specifically said by the commander of that detachment when he told his hometown newspaper about the rehearsals.” Perhaps I should add that I did not hear of that statement for several days and by the time that I tried to reach him by telephone the commander had been transferred to somewhere in Germany. I mention “Black Jack” and the impression created on television merely as an example of the attention to detail that makes great and impressive performances.”

In other words, in my speech I am pointing out that the impression conveyed to these many viewers whom I interviewed, and so far as I know, to all viewers; was that this horse was the horse of Mrs. Kennedy, whereas it was an army horse.

Mr. Jenner. Upon what source did you rely in making the statement that the special detachment to which you refer began to rehearse for the funeral a week before the assassination?

Mr. Oliver. I relied primarily on the interview given by Captain Cloy to the Jackson, Miss., Clarion-Ledger.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a copy of that?

Mr. Oliver. On the 21st of February, 1964.

Mr. Jenner. May I mark it? We will have an exhibit number on it.

I have marked as Oliver Exhibit No. 8 a photostatic reprint of an article headlined “A lot to remember, McComb Army officer big part in Kennedy funeral” by Kenneth Tolliver, and in the center is written, I assume, in—is that your handwriting, the black lettering?

Mr. Oliver. Mrs. Oliver’s, I believe, which picks up the words “Clarion-Ledger” from the next reproduction.

Mr. Jenner. For purposes of reproduction, it reads, “Jackson, Mississippi, Clarion-Ledger, February 21, 1964.” I take it, sir, that the clipping, I guess this is an actual clipping pasted on here, the upper portion, in any event is either the clipping or a reproduction of it upon which you relied?

(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 8 for identification.)

Mr. Oliver. This is a reproduction of the clipping.

Mr. Jenner. Would you show me where in that clipping it says in any respect whatsoever that Captain Cloy made the statement that he and his unit were rehearsing for the funeral of President Kennedy a week in advance of the assassination?

Mr. Oliver. My first knowledge of the rehearsal came from a letter that I received from someone in Arlington, or Alexandria, informing me that the Army had rehearsed the funeral more than a week before the funeral, I think, I cannot be sure.

Mr. Jenner. The funeral was on Monday, the 25th of November.

Mr. Oliver. And I would not say that I discounted the letter. I appreciated it, as I appreciate all efforts to give me information. On the other hand, I did not follow it up partly because I was very busy, and partly because I thought it entirely possible that what had been witnessed was some other Army exercise that could easily have been mistaken for a rehearsal of the funeral.

Consequently, I put it aside, and I am afraid I really dropped it from my mind until I received this clipping from the Clarion-Ledger a number of days after it had been published. I wouldn’t want to say how many now.

Mr. Jenner. But you had it prior to your speech at the Santa Ana Valley High School?

Mr. Oliver. Oh, yes; quite some time before that.

Mr. Jenner. And before you prepared the speech, part of which you have read?

Mr. Oliver. That is right. And that confirmed the statement that a funeral had been rehearsed.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; but not President Kennedy’s.

Mr. Oliver. But it turned out to be that.

Mr. Jenner. The only point I am making, Doctor, is that you will notice in the article that what Captain Cloy says is not what you state in your speech he said, but rather that before the assassination his special unit had been rehearsing for the anticipated possible funeral of President Hoover who was then ill.

Mr. Oliver. That is right. He said, “We were in a state of readiness and had just finished a funeral rehearsal because there was grave concern for President Hoover’s health”.

Mr. Jenner. That is not rehearsal for a funeral of President Kennedy a week in advance either of the funeral or of the assassination, is it?

Mr. Oliver. Capt. Richard C. Cloy states that the conduct of the President’s funeral is in accordance with orders that cover 160 pages. He implies——

Mr. Jenner. Those are standing orders.

Mr. Oliver. Presumably, and he implies that all funerals are conducted in the same way. And he goes on to speak of difficulties that his men encountered and how they performed, and that although his command was ready for the state funeral, the actual site of the burial was not known until the day before the ceremony, and so on. The point I was making was that the show was a rehearsed show, and I do not believe that I say that on——

Mr. Jenner. I think if you will read it again, sir, there is a clear implication, if not express statement on your part, that his unit began to rehearse for the funeral a week ahead. Would you read that sentence again, or that series of clauses?

Mr. Oliver. Yes; “The headquarters detachment of our Army under orders from McNamara’s office began to rehearse for the funeral more than a week before the assassination.”

Mr. Jenner. Yes; now, that clear implication is that the unit was rehearsing for President Kennedy’s funeral because they knew there was going to be a funeral.

Mr. Oliver. Oh, no; that is not the implication. I certainly would not imply that the unit knew it, because Cloy states specifically that they did not. They were told that it was a rehearsal for the anticipated demise of President Hoover.

Mr. Jenner. Is it in your implication then, sir, in your speech, that somebody else or some agency, somebody else connected with the Government of the United States or some agency of the Government of the United States, including the Army, Navy, Air Corps, Marines, wherever they may be, anticipated the assassination of the President a week in advance and directed the unit to begin preparing for the funeral?

Mr. Oliver. No; that is not my implication. If you raise a question it would be an interesting one for you to investigate; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we wish to investigate anything that you readily seek to imply, and to some, at least, and frankly to me, that sentence that you have just read carries the clear implication that President Kennedy’s assassination was anticipated by somebody in the Government service or Government-connected, and the unit, Captain Cloy’s unit was told to begin rehearsing for a funeral, the pretext being the funeral or possible funeral of President Hoover, whereas those who directed it had specifically in mind the assassination of President Kennedy, is that what you intended to imply?

Mr. Oliver. That is not what I intended to imply in this passage here.

But it is certainly an inference that could be drawn from the facts; yes, I mean it is a possibility.

Mr. Jenner. In fairness to yourself and others possibly involved, Doctor, what did you intend to imply?

Mr. Oliver. I was primarily concerned in making the point that the viewers suffered an illusion. That they had assumed this horse belonged to Mrs. Kennedy, whereas he certainly did not. I further intended to imply there was no conceivable connection between Mrs. Kennedy and the horse, since she can’t ever have ridden it if nobody rode it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you intend to imply by that statement that the assassination of President Kennedy was anticipated and that the practice instructions issued to Captain Cloy and his unit were in anticipation of, in fact, not the possible death of Hoover but the assassination of the President of the United States?

Mr. Oliver. That is not what I intended to imply. I did not intend to exclude that possibility, of course.

Mr. Jenner. And the source and sole source of that sentence which you have now read from your speech was the newspaper clipping from the Jackson, Miss., Clarion-Ledger, of February 21, 1964, now identified as Oliver Exhibit No. 8?

Mr. Oliver. Except insofar as concerns the actual date. Cloy, you see, says merely that they had just finished a rehearsal. The date as being a week before either the funeral or the assassination, I got from this letter.

Mr. Jenner. What letter was that?

Mr. Oliver. This was a letter that I had received some time in February, probably early in February.

Mr. Jenner. But the line in your speech as of last week was based on the material contained in Oliver Exhibit No. 8?

Mr. Oliver. That letter and Oliver No. 8.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the letter?

Mr. Oliver. No; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. And the letter was from whom?

Mr. Oliver. I do not recall the name.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the letter on which you relied?

Mr. Oliver. Probably. I have such a mass of undigested correspondence that I probably have it some place in that mass. On the other hand, I may not, because I recently searched for an entirely different letter and wasn’t able to find it. Possibly I just overlooked it.

Mr. Jenner. The letter was, I take it, from a person with whom you had not sufficient contact so that you can recall his or her name.

Mr. Oliver. So far as I know, it was a name unknown to me. It could conceivably have been somebody that I met some time but, as I recall, there was no allusion to such a meeting. It was simply offering information.

Mr. Jenner. Did that—I take it from what you said that the letter made reference to the item that was about to be published which is now identified as Oliver Exhibit No. 8?

Mr. Oliver. So far as I know, the writer of the letter had no knowledge of that interview at all.

Mr. Jenner. What did the writer of the letter say as you now recall?

Mr. Oliver. The writer of the letter implied that the Army had rehearsed for the funeral of Kennedy—that was the implication in the letter—as I say, more than a week either before the funeral or the assassination, I am not quite sure which word was used.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to verify the statement made by a source which was therefore unknown to you?

Mr. Oliver. As I say, I simply put the letter aside and for all practical purpose, I should say I forgot it until I received this clipping.

Mr. Jenner. Then for all practical purposes, Doctor, in making your speech last week you relied on Oliver Exhibit No. 8?

Mr. Oliver. Plus the letter for the date.

Mr. Jenner. For what date?

Mr. Oliver. The date of the rehearsal.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did you make any attempt to determine whether there was such a person who purported to write you a letter?

Mr. Oliver. As the writer of the letter, you mean?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oliver. No; I did nothing with the letter.

Mr. Jenner. You just put it aside?

Mr. Oliver. Yes; as for Captain Cloy, I did ascertain that there was such a person.

Mr. Jenner. How did you do that?

Mr. Oliver. By trying to reach him by telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mr. Oliver. In McComb, Miss., which is a small town some distance south of Jackson, but for which the Jackson paper evidently acts as the local paper. I understand there is a small paper in the town itself, but one that seems to be not very highly regarded.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do, make a long distance call down there?

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And in making that call you were advised by whom that there was or was not such a person?

Mr. Oliver. Well, I certainly was advised——

Mr. Jenner. Relate what you did on it.

Mr. Oliver. What I did was place a person-to-person call to Captain Cloy, giving his full name.

Mr. Jenner. Richard C.?

Mr. Oliver. Richard C. Cloy, in McComb, Miss. And it seems to me there is another item of information about him there which I was also able to use. Yes; it states Captain Cloy’s wife is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J. W. Burt, of Summit. I am not too sure that I used the name of Burt. I may have simply had that at hand. In any case, connection was made by the operator to some home, I assume a home in McComb, from which she was referred to another number, and at the other number a female voice replied, I assumed it was the captain’s mother, but had no means of verifying that—that the captain was in Germany and that there was no way of reaching him by telephone. I regard that as verifying his existence. I subsequently asked a friend of mine in Jackson, Miss., to verify his existence, and he reported to me that he did.

Mr. Jenner. You have never talked with Captain Cloy?

Mr. Oliver. No; I had been unable to reach him. Very possibly had I been willing to persist and spend the money for transoceanic phones, I could have done so.

Mr. Jenner. I show you a document I have marked Oliver Exhibit No. 9 which consists of pages A-4596, and A-4597 of the Congressional Record of Thursday, September 3, 1964, which consists of extension of remarks of Morris K. Udall, of the House of Representatives, commencing on page A-4596, and running over to page A-4597. Are you familiar with those newspaper reports that Representative Udall has placed of record in the Congressional Record?

Mr. Oliver. No; this is new to me. Congressman Udall is evidently much upset.

Mr. Jenner. You have anticipated my question. I was going to ask, well, I did ask if you were familiar with it. That is as you say new to you.

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. While you are looking at that, Doctor, I would like to mark your speech with an Exhibit number, and in fairness so as to have the accurate speech rather than the newspaper reports.

Mr. Oliver. Very good. Of course this man is reporting part.

Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?

Mr. Oliver. Of course this man is reporting in part.

Mr. Jenner. You are now referring to Oliver Exhibit No. 9?

Mr. Oliver. The first by Eric Cavallero. You will return that manuscript?

Mr. Jenner. Everything.

While you are browsing on Oliver Exhibit No. 9, I have before me a sheaf of sheets, typewritten with longhand notations which I have marked Oliver Exhibit No. 10, and I think you estimated they ran 39 pages plus a couple of A pages.

(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 9 for identification.)

Mr. Oliver. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. There are some interlineations in longhand and some block printing on various of the pages. Are those interlineations and block printing in your handwriting?

Mr. Oliver. Practically all of them. One or two of them may not be.

Mr. Jenner. Why don’t you identify the ones that aren’t.

Mr. Oliver. This little——

Mr. Jenner. Page 7 in the lower left-hand corner is a notation reading “This month August 1964” and that is the handwriting of whom?

Mr. Oliver. Mrs. Oliver. That is, I am perfectly willing to accept the responsibility for all of the handwritten notations that appear here.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oliver. The only exceptions are one or two corrections where in my haste in typing I have inverted letters or things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Obvious typographicals?

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This is, sir, the typewritten speech?

Mr. Oliver. Typewritten text from which I spoke.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry, I mean typewritten text from which you spoke at the Santa Ana Valley High School and other places you have spoken in recent days?

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us where those places were?

Mr. Oliver. Tucson, Ariz.

Mr. Jenner. Can you give the dates, approximately?

Mr. Oliver. Yes; I can give you the exact dates. I spoke in Tucson on Monday, the 24th of August; San Diego, Tuesday, the 25th of August; Azuza, Calif., Wednesday, the 26th of August; Glendale, Calif., Thursday, the 27th of August; Santa Ana Friday the 28th of August; and Salt Lake City Saturday, the 29th of August. And the speech which I gave in all of those places was substantially the same except that I did cut.

Mr. Jenner. The same as Oliver Exhibit No. 10?

Mr. Oliver. Yes; I did occasionally cut when I saw that my time was running a little long.

Mr. Unger. I wish you would have done that today. We missed another plane.

(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 10 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. In your reference to Joachim Joesten’s book, you had particular reference to chapter 16, did you not?

Mr. Oliver. Yes, I believe so. This is the one which takes up the discussion of the CIA and the FBI, and tries to connect them with General Walker and H. L. Hunt, and other persons.

Mr. Jenner. Do I now have all the sources to which you resorted in preparing your article in the American Opinion, and the speech which is identified as Oliver Exhibit No. 10?

Mr. Oliver. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a fair statement that as to both of those your sources were, to use your language, public sources in the sense of books, newspaper articles, and—what would you call this kind of a thing——

Mr. Oliver. Newspaper articles, or bulletins, and magazine articles.

Mr. Jenner. Magazine articles, and that you had no confidential source other than if you want to describe Colonel Clark’s talk with you as a confidential source?

Mr. Oliver. That is right. Except, of course, that I used the research facilities of Mr. Capell particularly, as I have stated.

Mr. Jenner. Did you use his research facilities in the sense of his library or rather did you employ bulletins issued by him or reports made to you which he prepared using his own library?

Mr. Oliver. Reports which he made to me chiefly by telephone, chiefly because I needed them in a hurry.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and your understanding was that he in turn based those reports on research work that he did of public sources?

Mr. Oliver. He has very elaborate files and many contacts.

Mr. Unger. I should point out to you that Mr. Jenner said he based upon public publications or files. That is not exactly correct, is it?

Mr. Oliver. Mr. Jenner said that Mr. Capell based his.

Mr. Unger. Yes; do you want that statement to stand?

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know. I will put it this way, sir. What were Mr. Capell’s sources so far as they are personally known to you, of your own knowledge?

Mr. Oliver. They are Mr. Capell’s files which go back over many years, and Mr. Capell’s current files which include information that he obtains from former intelligence officers and former members of the FBI. He has contacts with the Cuban underground, in fact with several Cuban undergrounds, and various other sources which enable him to obtain information which he believes to be reliable and accurate. He will indicate to me the nature of the information that he has, although over the telephone he will not usually disclose a source that he regards as confidential.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any other editions of his publication “The Herald of Freedom” that is, in addition to Oliver Exhibit No. 6 upon which you relied?

Mr. Oliver. I have, in the sense that I relied on information from him, much of which appeared in various copies of his periodical. I believe I have one other issue here. Here is one dated the 6th of December, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Upon which you also relied?

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That we will mark as Oliver Exhibit No. 11.

(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 11 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. It is the Herald of Freedom issue, volume 4, No. 9, dated December 6, 1963. The first page of which is entitled “John Fitzgerald Kennedy,” the second page Lee Harvey Oswald, the third page Lee Harvey Oswald, and at the bottom of the page Leon Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby. That is continued onto the fourth page, and the final heading, “The truth shall make you free,” is on the fourth page. I take it you were relying upon the materials appearing in pages 1, 2, 3, and about the third of the way down on page 4.

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I show you a tearsheet from the Chicago Daily News, dated Wednesday, February 12, 1964, on which I have underlined in red pencil or red ink, statements attributed by the author, the reporter who authored this article, and ask you whether those statements fairly report claims, charges or statements that you made?

Mr. Oliver. No, they certainly do not fairly report what I said. They are quoting from the article which is already in the record.

Mr. Jenner. That is American Opinion?

Mr. Oliver. Yes, American Opinion.

Mr. Jenner. So that an accurate, truly accurate, representation of what you did say or you did write is the two issues of American Opinion now identified as Oliver Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2?

Mr. Oliver. Precisely, and not what some malicious or careless journalist might wish to excerpt from that article for the purposes of producing a sensation or a scandal.

Mr. Jenner. Dr. Oliver, we had a kind of hard time getting hold of Commission Exhibit 1015 and they are out of print, by the way. I would like to know—are you what Mr. Surrey testified to as a—are you on the presubscription list of the——

Mr. Oliver. American Eagle Publishing Co.

Mr. Jenner. American Eagle Publishing Co.?

Mr. Oliver. I may well be. I was or don’t know whether there was or is a presubscription list. But I suspect that if there was or is one I may well be on it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to tell me how you came by one?

(Discussion off the record.)

(The document was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 12.)

Mr. Oliver. If you want to know how I got my copy, General Walker sent it to me. Or I assume that he did; anyway, it was sent to me.

Mr. Jenner. At least it arrived in the mail?

Mr. Oliver. That is right. Here is the ad.

Mr. Jenner. The advertisement to which Mr. Unger made reference appears in Oliver Exhibit No. 1, page 82.

Mr. Unger. That is not the advertisement that I made reference to, and I am not a subscriber to that magazine. I just got an ad through the mail for that publication.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I have no further questions. Mr. Unger, you are at liberty to ask Mr. Oliver any questions you desire.

Mr. Unger. I understand that I have the opportunity to clarify any points that are in confusion, but I think that the witness and counsel have brought everything out admirably. I can’t think anything that needs to be added.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. I have no further questions.

Mr. Oliver. I would like to——

Mr. Jenner. Is there something you would like to add, sir?

Mr. Oliver. Merely to point out that your opening statement of which I have a copy here, confuses the article with the speech in the reference to the rehearsal for the funeral which, of course, was not made in the article but was made in the speech, and contains a very serious misstatement in saying that in my article I charge that “President Kennedy’s assassination was part of a Communist plot engendered with the help of the Central Intelligence Agency.” I make no such charge.

Mr. Jenner. The charge you make is contained in your speech. Whatever you say on that subject is contained in Oliver Exhibit No. 10, your speech, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Oliver. What I say on that subject is contained in the speech which you have labeled No. 10.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any other sources for your speech or your article to which we have not yet made reference?

Mr. Oliver. There would probably be thousands of them if we consider the first two-thirds of the speech in which I discuss socialism and so on——

Mr. Jenner. Doctor, we are only concerned with the subject matter.

Mr. Oliver. Of the assassination?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oliver. No, we have covered only the kind of sources that we have used.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence as Oliver Exhibits Nos. 1 through 12, the documents previously so marked.

(The documents heretofore marked as Oliver Exhibits Nos. 1 through 12, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. All right, thank you, sir.