THE CORRESPONDENCE OF JOHN JAY. (continued 4)

"On the subject of the acceptance of the bills of exchange, the Count can only say that he still waits for the person in question, who has informed him that he was on the point of setting out on his journey.

"He is moreover very sensible of the attention in communicating to him the last advices received respecting the affair of Charleston, and persuades himself that Mr Jay will always observe the same complaisance.

"Saturday, July 29th."

I immediately wrote him a letter of thanks for his civility to Mr Harrison, and nothing further passed between us till the 11th of August, when I sent him the following note.

"Mr Jay presents his respectful compliments to his Excellency the Count de Florida Blanca, and has the honor of informing him, that since the date of his last, bills to the amount of six thousand and six hundred dollars have been presented to him for acceptance. Mr Jay has prevailed on the holders of these bills to wait six or eight days for his answer, on a promise that the time for their payment, if accepted, shall be computed from the day on which they were presented.

"Madrid, August 11th, 1780."

To this was written the following answer.

Translation.

"The Count de Florida Blanca has just received Mr Jay's note of yesterday, on the subject of the new bills, which have been presented to him. He is mortified not to be able to return a positive answer today, respecting the acceptance of said bills, and must repeat, that he still waits for the person of whom mention has been made in preceding notes.

"St Ildefonso, August 12th, 1780."

Mrs Jay's illness, and the death of a child, detaining me at Madrid, I requested the Count to give me notice when it would be necessary I should wait upon him, and in the mean time Mr Carmichael went to St Ildefonso.

Congress will be pleased to remember, that in the conference of July 5th, the Minister, speaking of the person intended to succeed M. Mirales, said that he spoke English, and that we knew him. I supposed, that he alluded to one of the Gardoquis, three of whom speak English, and I was well acquainted with one of them. But as another of them had been heretofore employed by the Court, it appeared most probable that he was the person meant. They are brothers and have a strong family likeness.

On the 10th, Mr Carmichael wrote me, that he had seen the Count, and was informed by him, that the person so long expected had not yet arrived, and when he did he would give notice of it. On the 12th he wrote me that a person had arrived, whom he suspected to be the one so long expected. It seems that a person much resembling the Gardoqui family had arrived at the same inn where Mr Carmichael lodged, and was seen by him.

The holders of the bills becoming extremely uneasy, I wrote the Count the following reply to his last note.

"Madrid, August 16th, 1780.

"Sir,

"The letter, which your Excellency did me the honor to write on the 12th instant, was delivered to me yesterday.

"The kind concern you are pleased to express for the delay, which suspends my receiving a positive answer respecting the bills, demands my acknowledgments, and is an additional proof of that generous sensibility, which induced your Excellency to tell me, that your friendship for America should rise with her distresses. A sentiment so evincive of magnanimity will be received by Congress with all the admiration and gratitude it merits, and will not cease to inspire me with that confidence in your Excellency, which greatness of mind seldom fails to excite.

"I ought to mention, that the holders of the bills here begin to grow impatient, and frequently repeat their applications to me for acceptance.

"With sentiments of great respect and regard, I have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY."

No answer.

The next day I received a card from the house of Joyce, informing me of their having received peremptory orders to return their bills, and that they could not delay it longer than the next post. Of this I sent a copy to the Count without any observations.

No answer.

On the 18th of August, I wrote the Count the following letter.

"Madrid, August 18th, 1780.

"Sir,

"I never find myself more disagreeably circumstanced, than when my duty constrains me to be troublesome to those, whom I wish to afford only pleasure and satisfaction. Such is my present situation. Monday next I perceive is to be a critical day. Other bills besides Messrs Joyce are then to be re-presented.

"M. Gardoqui of Bilboa writes me, that he has received bills on me for thirteen thousand three hundred and thirtyfive dollars, with orders immediately to ship the amount in goods to America. They will be presented tomorrow, and he expects an answer by Monday's post. If an immediate acceptance or refusal should be insisted on by any one of them, a protest must ensue, and American credit be reduced to the lowest ebb. What am I to do? If your Excellency should direct me to accept these bills payable at Bilboa, they will, as before, demand at what House they are to be paid.

"I must entreat your Excellency to relieve me and my country from this painful situation, and to pardon the trouble I am obliged to give you.

"With great respect and esteem, I have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY."

"P. S. The enclosed contains intelligence from America."

No answer.

Having first visited the holders of the bills, and obtained further time till Monday next, on the 24th I set out for St Ildefonso. I arrived the next day, and wrote the Count the following letter.

"St Ildefonso, August 25th, 1780.

"Sir,

"I arrived here this morning, but was prevented from immediately doing myself the honor of paying my respects to your Excellency, by fatigue and indisposition.

"In a letter I had the honor of writing to your Excellency on the 16th instant, I mentioned, that the holders of the bills began to grow impatient. On the 18th instant, I informed your Excellency by another letter, that their applications to me for acceptance had become so pressing, as that I found myself under the necessity of again requesting your directions.

"I have accepted Messrs Joyce's bills payable at Bilboa, agreeable to your Excellency's directions on the 5th of July last, and they have agreed to wait some time for the name of the House there, which may be employed to pay them. The other gentlemen were induced to delay requiring of me a decisive answer until Monday next, on my assurances, that they should then receive one.

"The inducements and reasons, which urged Congress into this measure, are known to your Excellency, and it would be no less unnecessary than improper to recapitulate the consequences, which must ensue from the success or failure of it.

"I fear your Excellency thinks I am too solicitous, too importunate. But when it is considered, that the holders of these bills are not under my control, and that they require an answer from me, I flatter myself that the trouble I give your Excellency on this subject will appear to arise from a sense of my duty, and not from the impulse of impatience.

"I sincerely congratulate your Excellency on the late important naval success against the common enemy, and have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY."

No Answer.

The next morning I went to pay my respects to the Minister, but being told he was sick, I left a card. The French Ambassador, however, and others, had been with him in the morning, and he rode out as usual in the afternoon.

Mr Carmichael informed me, that in passing by a wicket-gate of the King's private gardens, he had seen the person, whom he had before seen at the inn, walking in them, and that his servant had learned from a barber of his acquaintance, that he dressed a gentleman who spoke English, and lodged at M. Del Campo's. He also informed me, that the French Ambassador had lately received a letter from Count de la Luzerne, dated the 12th of May; that he was present when it was opened, that it was in cypher, and that the Ambassador said, he supposed he was impatient to hear the news; that he afterwards expressed a desire to see this letter, and that the Ambassador referred him for it to the Secretary; that the Secretary gave him some important papers, adding, that he had mislaid the letter. Hence it seems, as if the Ambassador intended at first to communicate the letter, but that its contents on being decyphered forbad it.

It appeared to me proper to mention my embarrassments to the French Ambassador, who had always been friendly, and ask his advice and aid on the subject. The next day I had a conference with him, and the following are notes of it.

St Ildefonso, August 27th, 1780.

Mr Jay waited on the Count de Montmorin this morning at nine o'clock, agreeably to appointment the day before. The former commenced the conversation by observing, that in his first conferences with the Minister of Spain, at Aranjues, the Minister divided the subject into two parts, and spoke largely on that of the bills drawn on Mr Jay, and on the treaty proposed to be entered into between Spain and America. Mr Jay recapitulated the Minister's assurances relative to the former, and informed the Ambassador, that the result of this conference was a promise of the Minister to send him written notes on both points, a few days afterwards. That with respect to the notes relative to the treaty, Mr Jay had not received them as yet. That on the other point, he had received notes, which, as well as his answer, he had shown to the Ambassador. That on the 5th of July he had another conference with the Minister at Madrid, in which he had endeavored to turn the conversation to the several objects of his business and mission here, but that the Minister postponed the discussion of them, until a person for whom he had sent, with a view to succeed M. Mirales, should arrive, when all the necessary arrangements should be made. He indeed told Mr Jay, that if the Messrs Joyce were pressing, he might accept their bills, payable at Bilboa, and throughout the whole conference, had given Mr Jay warm and repeated assurances, not only of the King's good faith and friendly disposition towards America, but of his own personal attachment to her interest, on both of which, as well as in his candor and promises, he desired him to place the greatest reliance.

Mr Jay proceeded further to inform the Ambassador, that being exceedingly pressed by Messrs Joyce and others, holders of the bills, for a decisive answer, which they had required to have on the Monday last past, he had signified the same to the Minister by three letters, requesting his directions, to none of which he received any answers. That he had accepted Messrs Joyce's bills, payable, as directed, by the Minister, and had prevailed on the other to wait until Monday next. That on his arrival here on Friday he wrote another letter to the Minister on the same subject, and the next day called at his house to pay his respects, but not being able to see him had left a card; that being thus circumstanced he was under the necessity of requesting the favor of him to speak to the Count, and obtain an answer from him.

The Ambassador told Mr Jay, that he ought to ask an audience of the Minister. To this Mr Jay replied, that he could not hope to have an answer to this request, as he had not been able to procure one to the different applications he had already made. The Ambassador said, that he would willingly speak to the Minister, but that he feared he should not be able to enter fully into the subject with him until Wednesday, both the Minister and himself having their time employed on objects, which at present and for some time past, had engrossed much of their attention. He then asked Mr Jay if he had written to Congress to stop drawing bills on him. Mr Jay replied, that he could not with propriety give such information to Congress, after the general and repeated assurances made him by the Count de Florida Blanca ever since his arrival here, and particularly the Minister's declaration, that he should be able to furnish him with thirty or forty thousand pounds sterling, at the end of the present or commencement of the next year, and that in the meantime, other arrangements might be taken to pay such bills as might become due after that period. He added, that if the Count had candidly told him that he could not furnish him with money to pay the bills, he should then immediately have informed Congress of it, who would have taken of course the proper measures on the occasion, but that should he now send a true account of all that had passed between the Count de Florida Blanca and himself thereon, he could not answer for the disagreeable effects such intelligence would produce. The Count seemed to think the Spanish Minister would pay the bills that had been already presented, and had probably delayed giving Mr Jay an answer until the arrival of the person he expected, who he understood was detained by the necessity of making some arrangements in his family before he left it.

On this Mr Jay remarked, that this did not accord with the information the Minister had given him near three weeks before, that the said person was then about to set out.

The conference ended with a promise of the Count de Montmorin, that he would endeavor to speak to the Count de Florida Blanca on the subject, but that he was afraid he should not be able to do it fully until Wednesday next.

Finding that the Ambassador could not do anything till Wednesday next, and that the Minister's determined silence left no room to hope much from him very soon, I despatched letters by express to the holders of the bills, and requested a little more time. I was apprehensive that if I should accept them without the Minister's consent, it might become an objection to his providing for their payment, and appearances led me to suspect, that any tolerable excuse for such refusal would have been very grateful.

The French Ambassador did not, as usual, return my visit. I dined with him, nevertheless; but his behavior, though polite, was dry, and not cordial and open as before. He mentioned not a syllable of his having received a letter from Philadelphia. These circumstances increased my apprehensions that his letter contained some things unpleasant.

On Wednesday afternoon, 30th of August, I waited on the Ambassador, to know the result of the conversation he had promised to have with the Minister on our affairs. He did not appear very glad to see me. I asked him whether he had seen the Minister, and conversed with him on our affairs. He said he had seen the Minister, but that as Count d'Estaing was present, he had only some general and cursory conversation with him, and slipping away from that topic, went on to observe, that I would do well to write another letter to the Minister, mentioning the number of letters I had already written, my arrival here, and my desire of a conference with him. I told the Ambassador, that while four letters on the subject remained unanswered, it could not be necessary to write a fifth. That these letters had been written with great politeness and circumspection; that the last was written the day of my arrival at St Ildefonso; that I had also gone to the Minister's house, to pay my respects to him, and on being told he was sick, had left a card; and that, notwithstanding these marks of attention and respect, I still continued unanswered and unnoticed. I observed to him further, that this conduct accorded ill with the Minister's assurances; that unless I had met with more tenderness from the holders of the bills, they would have been returned noted for non-acceptance; that if such an event should at last take place, after the repeated promises and declarations of the Minister, there would of necessity be an end to the confidence of America in the Court of Spain.

He replied, that he hoped things would take a more favorable turn; that to his knowledge the Minister had been of late much occupied and perplexed with business; that I ought not to be affected with the inattention of his conduct; that I should continue to conduct the business smoothly, having always in view the importance of Spain, and remembering that we were as yet only rising States, not firmly established, or generally acknowledged, &c. and that he would by all means advise me to write the Minister another letter, praying an audience.

I answered, that the object of my coming to Spain was to make propositions, not supplications, and that I should forbear troubling the Minister with further letters, till he should be more disposed to attend to them. That I considered America as being, and to continue independent in fact, and that her becoming so in name was of no further importance than as it concerned the common cause, in the success of which all the parties were interested; and that I did not imagine Congress would agree to purchase from Spain the acknowledgment of an undeniable fact at the price she demanded for it; that I intended to abide patiently the fate of the bills, and should transmit to Congress an account of all matters relative to them; that I should then write the Minister another letter on the subject of the treaty, and if that should be treated with like neglect, or if I should be informed that his Catholic Majesty declined going into that measure, I should then consider my business at an end, and proceed to take the necessary measures for returning to America; that I knew my constituents were sincerely desirous of a treaty with Spain, and that their respect for the House of Bourbon, the desire of France signified in the Secret Article, and the favorable opinion they had imbibed of the Spanish nation, were the strongest inducements they had to wish it; that the policy of multiplying treaties with European nations was with me questionable, and might be so with others; that, for my own part, I was inclined to think it the interest of America to rest content with the treaty with France, and, by avoiding alliances with other nations, remain free from the influence of their disputes and politics; that the situation of the United States, in my opinion, dictated this policy; that I knew it to be their interest, and of course their disposition, to be at peace with all the world; and that I knew too it would be in their power, and I hoped in their inclination, always to defend themselves.

The Ambassador was at a stand; after a little pause, he said, he hoped my mission would have a more agreeable issue. He asked me if I was content with the conduct of France. I answered, most certainly; for that she was spending her blood as well as treasure for us. This answer was too general for him. He renewed the question, by asking whether I was content with the conduct of France relative to our proposed treaty with Spain. I answered, that, as far as it had come to my knowledge, I was. This required an explanation, and I gave it to him, by observing, that, by the Secret Article, Spain was at liberty to accede to our treaty with France whenever she pleased, and with such alterations as both parties might agree to; that Congress had appointed me to propose this accession now, and had authorised me to enter into the necessary discussions and arguments; that, to give their application the better prospect of success, they had directed me to request the favorable interposition of the King of France with the King of Spain; that I had done it by letter to Count de Vergennes, who, in answer, had assured me of the King's disposition to comply with the request of Congress; and informed me that instructions analogous to this disposition should be given to the Ambassador at Madrid; that it gave me pleasure to acknowledge that his conduct towards me had always been polite and friendly, but that I still remained ignorant whether any, and what progress had been made in the mediation. He seemed not to have expected this; but observed, that all he could do was to be ready to do me any friendly office in his power, for that he did not see how his mediation could be proper, except in cases where points of the treaty were discussed, and could not be agreed upon. To this I replied, that these were only secondary objects of the expected mediation, and that the primary one was to prevail upon the King of Spain to commence the negotiation, and enter upon these discussions; but that I remained uninformed of what he might have done on that subject. The Ambassador made no direct reply to these remarks, but again proceeded to repeat his advice, that I should try one more letter to the Minister. I told him I had, after much consideration, made up my mind on that subject, and that it appeared to me inexpedient to follow his advice in this instance; and that when he should see the letters I had already written, he would probably be of the same opinion. I promised to show him the letters the next day, and took my leave. How far the tone of this conversation may be judged to have been prudent, I know not. It was not assumed, however, but after previous and mature deliberation. I reflected that we had lost Charleston, that reports ran hard against us, and therefore that this was no time to clothe one's self with humility.

On considering the earnestness with which the Ambassador had pressed me to write another letter to the Minister, I began to suspect that it might be the wish of the latter, who, conscious of having gone rather too far, might desire this way to retreat through. I concluded, therefore, to adhere to my resolution of not writing, but that if the Ambassador should confirm my suspicions by again pressing the measure, in that case to consent to send Mr Carmichael to the Minister with my compliments, and a request that he would favor me with a conference at such time as might be most convenient to him.

The next day, Thursday, the 31st of August, I visited the French Ambassador, and showed him the four last letters I had written to the Minister. He confessed they were perfectly unexceptionable, but again advised me to write another; I told him, I could not think of it, but that I would so far follow his advice, as to send Mr Carmichael to request of the Minister the favor of a conference. The Ambassador expressed much satisfaction at this proposal, and immediately promised to speak to the Minister on the subject. He advised, however, that I should delay the measure till Saturday, on account of some urgent business which then employed the Minister. To this I agreed. I hinted to him, that the person expected to succeed Mr Mirales was in town. He said he did not know, and waived the subject. I thought if that was really the case, it could do no harm that the Minister should know I suspected it. In the afternoon, the Ambassador's secretary paid me a visit, and seemed desirous of entering into particular conversation on the subject of our affairs, but as I did not approve of talking with the Ambassador through his secretary, I avoided it, by turning the conversation to light and general topics. He asked me several leading questions, and among others, whether there was a M. Gardoqui in town. I told him many persons came and departed that I was ignorant of, and passed on to another subject. Two persons about the Court mentioned to Mr Carmichael this evening, that this person was arrived.

On Saturday morning, the 2d of September, I committed my message for the Minister to Mr Carmichael, with directions, first to call on the French Ambassador, and ask him whether anything new had occurred to render the delivery of it improper. He told Mr Carmichael, he had mentioned to the Minister my desire of seeing him that day, but that the Minister said, he was so much occupied that it would be impossible. He, nevertheless, told Mr Carmichael he might go and see. This being mentioned to me, I told Mr Carmichael to go on.

After being long detained in the ante-chamber, he had an opportunity of delivering his message, and received for answer, that the Minister could not possibly see me till the next Tuesday evening, and that Mr Carmichael should call again on Tuesday morning, to be informed whether it would be in his power to see me then; that the person so long expected was arrived; that he had been preparing instructions for him, and would endeavor in the meantime to send him to converse with me.

On Sunday, the 3d of September, Don Diego Gardoqui, of Bilboa, presented me a note from the Count de Florida Blanca, in these words.

Translation.

"The Count de Florida Blanca presents his compliments to Mr Jay, and recommends to him to form an acquaintance with the bearer of this letter, being the person in question, whom he had expected from day to day."

It is observable, that M. Gardoqui's name is not mentioned in this letter, which appears the more singular, as the Count had never mentioned to me the name of the person expected. This was being very wary. Mr Carmichael told me, he took this to be the same person whom he saw first at the inn, and afterwards walking in the private gardens.

Hence it appears, that these strange delays were not unavoidable. Probably, the desire of further intelligence of the enemy's operations in America, and the undecided state of Mr Cumberland's negotiation, might have given occasion to them. To these may perhaps be added an expectation that our distresses would render us more pliant, and less attached to the Mississippi. But these are conjectures, and as men sometimes act without any settled system, it may not be prudent to scan their conduct by a supposed plan, however probable.

M. Gardoqui began the conversation by assurances of his personal attachment to our cause and country, which gave occasion to mutual and complimentary professions too unimportant to repeat. I told him, that the holders of the bills, after having shown me great forbearance and delicacy, were at length perfectly tired; that the house of Casa Mayor had sent their bills after me, but that as I was not to expect the honor of a conference with the Minister until Tuesday evening, at soonest, I had requested time till Wednesday to give my answer. I therefore begged the favor of him to mention this to the Minister, and obtain his directions what I should do. He asked to what amount Congress had resolved to draw. I told him. He observed, that the Court ought previously to have been applied to. In answer to which, I recapitulated the reasons before given to the Minister. He dwelt largely on the necessities of the State, and I expatiated on the extensive ideas entertained of Spanish opulence in America. He assured me they were mistaken, and spoke of the difficulties occasioned by the detention of their treasures abroad. He then remarked, that we offered no consideration for the money we solicited. I replied, that we offered the same consideration that other nations did who borrowed money, viz. the repayment of the principal with interest. He asked me if we had nothing further to offer, and mentioned ship timber. I said we had ship timber, but that as it belonged to individuals, the public could not get it otherwise than by purchase, and that it could answer no purpose to borrow money with one hand and instantly repay it with the other, for that a repayment in money, or in ship timber, was the same thing in fact, and differed only in name. Besides, that if Spain wanted timber from America, it would be better in case he went there, that he should be charged with that business, than that it should be under the direction of Congress, for that public works were always more expensive than private. He agreed in this. He again asked me whether I could think of nothing else to offer. I told him no. Whether there was nothing on the side of the Mississippi that I could offer. I told him nothing that I could think of except land, and that I did not think it would be worth the King's while to buy a hundred thousand pounds worth of land there, considering the immense territories he already possessed. He inquired whether I thought Congress would draw for the whole sum. I answered that it was in my opinion not improbable, for that they would consider the acceptance of ten or twelve thousand dollars as a prelude to further aids, naturally supposing, that if the King afforded us any supplies at all, they would be such as would correspond with his dignity, and not be limited to that little pittance. He desired me to meet him the next day at M. Del Campo's, which I promised to do.

I shortly after saw the French Ambassador, who among other things mentioned the proposed meeting at Del Campo's, which, with various other circumstances, shows his being on confidential terms with the Minister.

In the evening M. Gardoqui again paid me a visit, and pointedly proposed my offering the navigation of the Mississippi, as a consideration for aids. I told him that object could not come in question in a treaty for a loan of one hundred thousand pounds, and Spain should consider, that to render alliances permanent, they should be so formed as to render it the interest of both parties to observe them; that the Americans, almost to a man, believed that God Almighty had made that river a highway for the people of the upper country to go to the sea by; that this country was extensive and fertile; that the General, many officers, and others of distinction and influence in America, were deeply interested in it; that it would rapidly settle, and that the inhabitants would not readily be convinced of the justice of being obliged, either to live without foreign commodities, and lose the surplus of their productions, or be obliged to transport both over rugged mountains, and through an immense wilderness, to and from the sea, when they daily saw a fine river flowing before their doors, and offering to save them all that trouble and expense, and that without injury to Spain. He observed, that the present generation would not want this navigation, and that we should leave future ones to manage their own affairs, &c.

The next day, that is, the 4th of September, I met M. Gardoqui at M. Del Campo's. After some unconnected conversation, I observed to M. Del Campo, that as all the papers between the Minister and myself had passed through his hands, it was unnecessary to give him any information, except what related to the present state of the bills drawn upon me, which I proceeded to state in a short, but particular manner. He replied by making several strictures on the impropriety of drawing bills without previous notice and consent. He remarked, that they might with more propriety have been drawn on France, with whom we were allied, and who were richer than they; that the King must first take care of his own people, before he could supply us; that Spain had been brought into the war by our quarrel, but received no advantage from us; that they had been told of our readiness to assist in taking Pensacola, &c. but instead of aids, he had heard of nothing but demands from us; that our situation was represented as being deplorable, and that the enemy talked of the submission of some of the States, and of negotiations being on foot for that purpose.

Whether this style proceeded from natural arrogance, or was intended to affect my temper, I cannot say; in either case, I thought it most prudent to take no notice of it, but proceed calmly and cautiously, and the more so as this was the first time I had ever conversed with this man. I told him in substance, though more at large, that the assurances given Congress of the friendly disposition of Spain by M. Mirales and others had been confided in, and had induced Congress to expect the aids in question. That if this application could be called a demand, it was still the first they had made to my knowledge; that men in arms against the enemies of Spain were serving her as well as themselves, and therefore might without impropriety request her aid; that our separation from Britain was an object important to Spain, and that the success, with which we had opposed her whole force for six years, showed what the power of both, if under one direction, might be capable of; that I knew nothing of Spain's having been drawn into the war by or for us, and that this was not to be found among the reasons she had alleged for it; that an attack on Pensacola could not be expected to be made by troops actually employed in repelling the enemy's assaults from their own doors, and that the principles of self-defence would not permit or justify it; that Spain had much to expect in future from our commerce, and that we should be able as well as willing to pay our debts; that the tales told of our despondency and submission resulted from the policy of the enemy, not from fact, and I believed no more of their private negotiations between America and Britain, than I did of there being private negotiations between Spain and Britain for a separate peace, which the Minister assured me was not the case; that if on the arrival of the bills, I had been told plainly that no money could be advanced, further drafts would soon have been prevented; but that a contrary conduct having been adopted, other expectations had been excited; that as to France, she had done, and was still doing much for us, and that her being our ally did not confer propriety upon every request that we could make to her. He still pressed this point, and complained that the greater part of the money heretofore advanced by Spain had been laid out in France. He saw that France was deriving great commercial advantages from us, but that our commerce never would be an object with Spain, because all her productions would find a better market in her own Colonies. He desired a note of the bills which had arrived, and then made some reflections on the proposal of a treaty. We agreed perfectly well, that mutual interest should be the basis of it, and I added, that the good opinion entertained of the King and nation by America, was also a pleasing circumstance. He said, however that might be, America did not seem inclined to gratify Spain, in the only point in which she was deeply interested. Here followed much common-place reasoning about the navigation of the Mississippi, of which your Excellency has heretofore heard too much to require a repetition. He spoke also much of the difficulties of Spain, as to money matters, saying that their treasures in America could at present be of no use to them, as they had given orders that none should be sent home during the war, even if it continued these ten years; and this was done in order, by stopping the usual current of specie into Europe, to embarrass the measures which Britain must take to obtain her necessary supplies.

On the 6th of September, M. Gardoqui brought me word, that I might accept the bills of Casa Mayor, amounting to one thousand one hundred and ten dollars, which I accordingly did. The proposed conference was postponed, nor indeed was it obtained until the 23d of September.

On the 11th, the French Ambassador's Secretary called upon me, by the Ambassador's direction, to inform me, that an express was going to Paris, and to know whether anything further had been done in our affairs since he had seen me. I told him things continued in the same situation. He again commenced a conversation on the subject, and as he came directly from the Ambassador I entered into it. He expressed some concern for the delays I met with. I told him such things must be expected. He said he hoped I was content with France. I replied, that I apprehended France considered an interference in our negotiations, as a delicate matter, for that as she had probably held up the exclusive navigation of the Mississippi, and Gulf of Mexico, among other objects to induce Spain to take a part in the war, she might hesitate about pressing Spain into a treaty with us on terms, that would not comprehend this object. He said M. Gerard had reasoned well about those matters, but that he did not believe France would be backward, nor indeed that she had promised this to Spain to bring her into the war. I told him, I should not be surprised to find, that the delay arose from a desire of hearing further news from America, and probably from Philadelphia. He said, that could not be the case, for since M. Mirales's death, Spain had no person there to give them intelligence. I told him that Spain might be waiting the issue of new motions respecting the Mississippi in Congress, and that I was sure Count de la Luzerne would readily be at the trouble of communicating to them any interesting information on that or any other subject. Whether he drew any conclusions from the manner in which this was said, I cannot say, but in a way that looked like exculpating that Minister, he told me, that Count de la Luzerne had only mentioned to the French Ambassador, that two Members of Congress, with whom he had talked over the affair of the Mississippi, thought it would be best not to bring on the question of the navigation until Spain should become possessed of the adjacent country, for that then it might be ceded with a better grace. He mentioned no names. This explains the letter herein before mentioned. The inferences which flow from it are obvious. I incline to suspect, that what I said in my letters on that head returned here by the same conveyance.

On the 13th of September, M. Gardoqui delivered me the following verbal message from Count de Florida Blanca. "That the exigencies of the State would not permit his Majesty to provide for the payment of more of the bills drawn upon me than had been already accepted." I expressed my regret that this had not been told me at first, and told him it appeared a little extraordinary that the Minister should employ himself and me three months in making and answering propositions relative to a loan which it was not in his power to make. I touched also on the assurances from time to time given me, and intimated, that something, which I could not at present see through, must have caused this change; that I lamented it the more, as it would weaken the foundations on which I wished to see a cordial union laid between the two countries.

I dined with the French Ambassador. He was a little out of spirits, and on talking to him on what had happened, I told him there was nothing now left but for me to apply to France. He encouraged the idea, and agreed with me, that the bills ought to be by all means saved from protests. He imputed the conduct of Spain to resentment against M. Necker, for opposing a certain scheme of Spanish finance, which he thought interfered with his plan. It is a curious one, but I shall omit it at present, as I fear Congress already wish this letter at an end. As the Count de Florida Blanca's message to me by M. Gardoqui was a verbal one, and might hereafter be denied or explained away as convenience might dictate, I thought it important to establish it, and for that and other reasons which need no explanation, I wrote the Count the following letter.

"St Ildefonso, September 14th, 1780.

"Sir,

"The information I received yesterday from your Excellency by M. Gardoqui, has drawn the affair of the bills of exchange to a conclusion. He told me, that the exigencies of the State would not permit his Majesty to provide for the payment of more of those bills than were already accepted, amounting to about fourteen thousand dollars.

"As it is important that every nation at war should know exactly the state of their resources, and as America has been induced to consider the friendship of his Catholic Majesty as among the number of hers, I must request the favor of your Excellency to tell me frankly whether the United States may expect any, and what aids from Spain. The general assurances of amity, which that country has received from this, together with what has passed between your Excellency and myself relative to clothing for our troops, and supplies of specie in America, will I hope be considered as authorising this question; and the more so, as M. Gardoqui, to whose arrival your Excellency postponed the discussion of these matters, informs me he is not instructed to say anything to me on these, or indeed any other subjects.

"I have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY."

On this day some glorious reports from America arrived. It seemed as if she had risen like a giant refreshed with sleep, and was doing wonders. I sent the news to the Count as usual, without appearing to be affected by his late conduct. I began again to be seen, and in a few instances to be known.

The next day, the 15th of September, M. Gardoqui delivered to me a paper by way of answer to my letter of yesterday to the Minister. It is in these words;

"The following answer has been dictated to me in his Excellency's name by Don Bernardo del Campo, to be delivered to the honorable John Jay.

"That it is not his Majesty's intention to stop assisting the States, whenever means can be found to do it, but that it will be impossible to supply them with money in Europe, there being none to spare, for that which ought to have come this year from America, has neither come, nor is it known when it will, and that which would have facilitated a far advanced negotiation is likely to produce no effect, in a great measure, through the undermining of some persons of rank in France.

"The States not giving timely advice, nor having taken his Majesty's previous consent, he could not arrange his affairs beforehand, in order to assure the acceptance and payment of the bills they have drawn, for which reasons, and that Congress has not to this day given any tokens of a recompense, his Majesty might have just cause of disgust, but notwithstanding he does not, nor will change his ideas, and will always retain those of humanity, friendship, and compassion, that he has had towards the colonies. That, consequently, if Mr Jay or his constituents should find money upon credit, to the sum of one hundred or one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, that his Majesty will be answerable for the said sum, payable in the space of three years; that his Majesty will besides exert all that is possible to assist them with clothing and other things, and, finally, in order that his Majesty may extend his further dispositions, it is precisely necessary that they should give sure and effective tokens of a good correspondence, proposing reciprocal measures of a compensation that may establish a solid friendship and confidence, without reducing it to words and protests of mere compliment.

"This being the substance, I would further suggest to Mr Jay's consideration, that the continuance of assisting the States by answering the sum expressed in a manner much more public than that of paying the money privately, shows plainly the sincerity of his Majesty, although the States have not to this day proposed any equivalent to the assistance already given, and to the expenses occasioned by a war, which had its true origin from them, to all which must be added, (though by the way no credit is given to it,) that there are hints of some understanding between the colonies and England.

"St Ildefonso, September 15th, 1780.

JAMES GARDOQUI."

It is to be observed, that this paper when first delivered was not signed, and suspecting that this omission might not be accidental, I mentioned it to M. Gardoqui a day or two afterwards. After some hesitation, and doubts of its being necessary, he signed it. I made no remarks at all to M. Gardoqui on any part of this paper except the last article, which I treated with great indignation.

On the 16th I wrote a short letter and many copies to your Excellency, informing you of the necessity of suspending further drafts upon me for the present.

Three days afterwards, I had a long and satisfactory conversation with the French Ambassador, in which he was very unreserved, candid, and confidential. He read to me part of a letter he intended to send to Count de Vergennes on our affairs, and justice calls upon me to say, that we are obliged to him for it.

On the 22d of September, I sent the following letter to Count de Vergennes by one of the Ambassador's couriers.

"St Ildefonso, September 22d, 1780.

"Sir,

"I have never taken up my pen with so much reluctance as I now do, although my design is to write a letter to your Excellency. But, Sir, there are few sensations more painful than those which they experience, who, already covered with benefits, are impelled by cruel necessity to ask for more. Such is my present situation, and hence proceeds my regret.

"My uniform and unreserved communications to the Count Montmorin, who has my fullest confidence, precludes the necessity and consequently the propriety of a minute detail of American affairs here.

"Your Excellency will recollect the resolution of Congress for drawing bills on me, as well as the reasons assigned for that measure. In my first conference with the Minister on that subject, he enlarged on the necessities of the State, but nevertheless told me, he should be able, at the end of the present or beginning of the next year, to advance thirty or forty thousand pounds sterling, and that further arrangements respecting the residue should then be made.

"I afterwards received and answered propositions for the reimbursement of this money; and from time to time, was permitted to accept such of the bills as were most pressing.

"Things remained in this state till the 5th of July, when, after many warm assurances of friendship and good will, the further discussion of these matters was postponed by the Minister until the arrival of a person intended to succeed M. Mirales, the late Spanish agent at Philadelphia, and I was told that they should then be arranged and adjusted.

"Several weeks elapsed after the time assigned for his arrival had expired. The holders of the bills became importunate, and insisting on my accepting or refusing them.

"I wrote several letters to the Minister, requesting his directions, but was not favored with an answer to any of them.

"On the 3d instant, after fruitless endeavors to see the Minister, I received the following note from him by the hands of M. Gardoqui;

'The Count de Florida Blanca sends his compliments to Mr Jay, and advises him to become acquainted with the bearer of this letter, who is the person that has been expected from day to day.'

"This gentleman made many remarks tending to show the propriety of America's offering some specific consideration for this money, and hinted at the navigation of the Mississippi, ship timber, vessels, tobacco, &c. &c. I replied, that the only consideration Congress could offer, was that which all other nations at war, who borrowed money, offered, viz. to repay the principal with a reasonable interest after the war; that I should deceive him, were I to enter into contracts to pay it sooner; that the proposition of paying it during the war, in ship timber, tobacco, or other articles, did not lessen the difficulty, for that these things were worth, and cost money in America, as well as in Europe; and that as to the Mississippi, it could not come in question as a consideration for one hundred thousand pounds. The conversation was concluded, by his desiring me to meet him at M. Del Campo's the next morning. M. Gardoqui then, and since, behaved with temper, candor, and politeness.

"The next day we saw M. Del Campo. He was liberal in his censures on the measure of drawing the bills in question on Spain. He informed me, that the King must first take care of his own people before he gave supplies to others; that Spain, instead of deriving advantage from America, heard of nothing but demands. That if Congress wanted money, they should have drawn on France, with whom they were in alliance, and who had all the profit of their trade; that we ought to have distinguished between our allies, and those who only wished us well, and that applications for aid might be proper to the one, which were not so to the other; that our affairs were in a ruinous condition, and that it was even said some of the States were holding secret negotiations for peace with the enemy, &c. &c. &c. My replies were such as the subject naturally suggested, and as prudence dictated; there are seasons when men mean not to be convinced, and when argument becomes mere matter of form. On such occasions, we have little more in our power than moderation and temper. I gave M. Del Campo credit for his frankness, and wish I could with propriety have extended it to his delicacy.

"A day or two afterwards, viz. the 6th instant, I was permitted to accept bills to the amount of one thousand one hundred and ten dollars.

"On the 13th, M. Gardoqui, by order of the Minister, told me, that the exigencies of the State would not permit the King to provide for the payment of more of the bills than had been already accepted, amounting to about fourteen thousand dollars. This gave occasion to my letter to the Minister of the 14th, and to his answer of the 15th, which was dictated by him to M. Del Campo, and by M. Del Campo to M. Gardoqui, copies of both of which your Excellency will receive from Count Montmorin. The Minister's answer made a conference between us expedient. I requested that favor the 15th instant, and have been informed that the Count de Florida Blanca will endeavor to see me on Saturday evening next.

"I forbear remarks on this singular conduct. I wish it could be explained in a manner compatible with the reputation Spain enjoys in North America. I much fear partial resentments, which ought not to affect America, have been permitted to have an undue degree of influence, and that the Minister forgot in his zeal for a certain scheme of finance, that it was unjust to wound opponents through the sides of their friends. But whatever may have been the cause; the effect, unless removed, will be destructive, and France only can at present afford the means of doing it.

"When I consider, on the one hand, that France was our first, and is still our best, and almost only friend; that she became our ally on terms of equality, neither taking, nor attempting to take ungenerous advantages of our situation; that she has clothed and armed our troops, and is at this moment assisting us with her fleets, her armies, her treasure, and her blood; gratitude and generosity forbid me to solicit a further tax on her magnanimity. But, on the other hand, when I reflect that the loss of American credit would be a loss to the common cause, and an eventual injury to France; that such an event would be a matter of triumph to our common enemy; and of pain to our friends; that the honor of Congress, suspended on the fate of these bills, now hangs as it were by a hair, and that our enemies here and elsewhere are doing all in their power to cut it; when I consider, that America would feel more sensibly the loss of reputation in this instance, than the loss of battles in many others; I say, Sir, when I consider these things, I find it to be my duty to request your Excellency to interpose the amity of France, and that his Majesty will be pleased to add this strong link to the chain of benefits, by which he has already bound the affections of America to his family and people.

"I ought to inform your Excellency, that bills for about fifty thousand dollars remain unaccepted. The greater part of these are in the hands of merchants, who waited my answer with a degree of patience, I could not have expected; some of them ever since the month of June last. Further delays, therefore, were not to be asked or obtained, and I was reduced to the necessity, either of promising to accept them, or permit the credit of Congress to perish with them. I could not long hesitate. I promised to accept them. Fortunately, these bills have hitherto come on slowly, though, it is probable, that the assurances of Spain, which I have communicated to Congress, may quicken their pace. A period, however, will soon be put to their drawing, as I have written to them by several conveyances immediately to stop.

"I ought also to inform your Excellency, that a promise made me in June last of some clothing for our troops has been renewed, and that his Majesty has been pleased to offer us his responsibility to facilitate a loan of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I shall endeavor to make the most of this offer, and your Excellency may rest assured, that I shall gladly embrace every measure, which may be calculated to lessen the weight with which the American cause presses on the finances of France.

"I have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY."

I also sent a copy of this letter to Dr Franklin, enclosed in one of which the following is a copy.

St Ildefonso, Sept. 22d, 1780.

Dear Sir,

"I have lately written to you several letters. Enclosed is a copy of one to Count de Vergennes, which Count Montmorin, who also writes to him on the same subject, is so obliging as to send together with this, by a courier to Bayonne.

"The papers you have heretofore received from me, with those now sent, will enable you to understand it, and I am persuaded your abilities and influence will be exerted to promote the success of the application contained in it. It appears to me absolutely necessary, that the bills drawn on me be saved at all events. If contrary to my ideas of the wisdom and affection of France, she should not lend us money for the purpose, we must endeavor to borrow it of individuals, though at a higher than usual interest; nay, on any terms, rather than not get it. Almost anything will be better than a protest; for exclusive of the disgrace, which is intolerable, the consequences of it would cost Congress more than the expense of saving their credit, be it almost what it will.

"I am, &c.

JOHN JAY."

The Ambassador informed me, that he had received despatches from Philadelphia, which gave him and the Court great pleasure, viz.—That Congress had, at the instance of the Chevalier de la Luzerne and Don Francisco, agreed to make a diversion to the southward in order to facilitate the Spanish operations in that quarter; that a noble spirit was pervading all ranks of people; that we had been successful in Jersey, &c. &c. and in short, that the Chevalier de la Luzerne was much pleased with Congress and the general aspect of affairs in America. I lamented in silence, that I should have no other intelligence of all this, but from a French Ambassador.

He informed me further, that he believed we should now be able to get some of the clothing taken from the enemy by Admiral Cordova; that he had, and would continue to cherish the idea. We had a long conversation; he gave me much good advice, some useful information, and many assurances of cordiality and good will.

On the evening of the 23d, I was admitted to the honor of a conference with his Excellency the Count de Florida Blanca; and M. Gardoqui, who understands Spanish and English exceedingly well, performed the part of interpreter.

The following notes of the conference are very exact as to every particular.

Notes of a Conference between his Excellency the Count de Florida Blanca and Mr Jay, at St Ildefonso, on Saturday Evening, September 23d, 1780.

After the usual civilities the Count began the conference by informing Mr Jay, that the Court had received intelligence from the Havana, of Congress having so far complied with the request made to them to permit the exportation of provisions for the use of his Majesty's fleets and armies there, as to give license for shipping three thousand barrels of flour, circumstances not admitting of further supplies at that time; that this business was conducted by Mr Robert Morris in a manner with which he was well pleased; that Congress had also, in order to promote the success of the Spanish operations against Pensacola, &c. agreed to make a diversion to the southward, to detach a considerable body of regular troops and militia to South Carolina under General Gates; that his Majesty was well pleased with, and highly sensible of, these marks of their friendly disposition, and had directed him to desire Mr Jay to convey his thanks to them on the occasion.

Mr Jay expressed his satisfaction at this intelligence, and promised to take the earliest opportunity of conveying to Congress the sense his Majesty entertained of their friendship, manifested by these measures. He told the Count it gave him pleasure to hear the business of the Spanish supplies was committed to Mr Robert Morris, and assured him, that the fullest confidence might be reposed in that gentleman's abilities and integrity. He requested his Excellency again to assure his Majesty, that he might rely on the good disposition of Congress, and of their evincing it in every way, which the situation of their affairs and the interest of the common cause might render practicable and expedient. The Count told Mr Jay, that he had proposed to the French Ambassador to send to Congress for the use of their army, clothing for ten regiments lately taken in the convoy bound from Britain to Jamaica, and in which the two Crowns were equally interested; that the Ambassador approved the proposition, but had not yet given his final answer. He then observed, that a negotiation for a peace between Britain and Spain appeared at present more distant than ever; that the former had offered his Majesty everything he could desire to induce him to a separate peace; but that the King, adhering to the same resolutions in favor of America, which had influenced his conduct in his mediation for a general peace and since, had rejected them, and that Congress might rely on his Majesty's determination never to give up or forsake America, but on the contrary continue affording her all the aids in his power.

He told Mr Jay, that the Court of London, disappointed in their expectations of detaching Spain, had it in contemplation again to send Commissioners to America to treat with Congress on the subject of an accommodation with them; that this measure was at present under the consideration of the Privy Council, and that there was reason to suppose it would be adopted. He observed, that the English had hitherto discovered much finesse and little true policy; that first they endeavored by their intrigues in France to separate that kingdom and America, but not succeeding there, they sent Commissioners to America; that the last year they attempted to detach France, and this year Spain, and that being unsuccessful in both they would again attempt America; that the best way of defeating their designs was mutual confidence in each other. He remarked, that America could not rely on any promise of Britain, and asked if she was once detached from France and Spain, who could compel an observance of them? Mr Jay thanked the Count for this communication, and assured him, that Congress would not only adhere to their engagements from motives of interest, but from a regard to their honor, and the faith of treaties; that the opinion of Congress on this subject corresponded with that of his Excellency, and that their conduct, with respect to the former English Commissioners, gave conclusive evidence of their sentiments on the subject. Mr Jay promised in case he received any intelligence relative to this matter, his Excellency might depend on its being communicated immediately to him.

The Count appeared satisfied with this, and again repeated his former assurances of the King's good disposition towards America, &c. &c.

Mr Jay informed his Excellency, that the subject on which he was desirous of conversing with him, arose from the paper he had received from M. Gardoqui the 15th instant, containing his Excellency's answer to Mr Jay's letter of the 14th.

Mr Jay then requested the Count to communicate to his Majesty his thanks for the offer he had been pleased to make, of his responsibility in order to facilitate a loan of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and also for the promise of clothing, &c. &c. and to assure him, that the gratitude of the States would always be proportionate to the obligations conferred upon them; he observed to the Count, that he intended to attempt this loan in Spain, France, and Holland, and begged to be informed in what manner he should evidence the responsibility of his Majesty to the persons, who might be disposed to lend the money, for that in this and other similar cases, he meant to be guided by his Excellency's directions. The Count replied, that as this matter fell within the department of M. Musquir, the Minister of Finance, he would consult him upon it on Tuesday evening next, and immediately thereafter inform Mr Jay of the result. He then apologized, and expressed his regret for not being able to furnish the money he had expected to supply (alluding evidently to the thirty or forty thousand pounds which, in the conference at Aranjues, the 11th day of May last, he said he expected to be able to supply by the end of this or beginning of next year.) He said he had been disappointed in the remittances expected from America, for he was advised, that two ships, which he had expected would arrive from thence with treasure in December or January next, would not come, and that this and other circumstances rendered it impossible for him to advance us any money in Europe. But that he would, nevertheless, agreeably to the King's intentions, give us all the assistance in his power.

Mr Jay desired to be informed, whether any steps were necessary for him to take for forwarding the clothing at Cadiz to America. The Count answered, that he waited the French Ambassador's answer on the subject, and that he had as yet no inventory of them, but that he would again speak to the Ambassador, and make arrangements for sending them on to America as soon as possible.

Mr Jay then proceeded to regret that the pleasure he derived from these instances of his Majesty's friendship to the United States, was mingled with pain from being informed by the abovementioned paper, that the King conceived he might have just cause to be disgusted with them.

Because, 1st; they had drawn the bills of exchange without his previous consent; and, 2dly, because they had not given any tokens of a recompense. Mr Jay reminded his Excellency that these bills were drawn upon himself, and not on Spain, and although that Congress might have hoped, for reasons already assigned, to have been enabled to pay them by a loan from his Majesty, yet that every other usual measure was left open for that purpose. That an application to Spain for such a loan could give no just cause of offence, for that if it had not been convenient to her to make it, all that she had to was to have told him so, and he was then at liberty to take such measures for procuring it elsewhere as he might think proper. The Count replied, that what Mr Jay observed was true, but that certainly the bills were drawn with an expectation of their being paid by Spain, and that this might probably have been done if previous notice of the measure had been given. That he always intended to have done something towards their payment, but had been prevented by disappointments, and the exigencies of the State. Mr Jay continued to observe, that the second cause assigned for this disgust, viz. that Congress had given no tokens of a recompense, must have risen from a mistake. He reminded his Excellency, that he had never requested a donation from Spain, but that on the contrary he had repeatedly offered to pledge the faith of the United States for the repayment with interest, within a reasonable time after the war, of whatever sum his Majesty might be so kind as to lend them. To these remarks the Count said only, that interest for the money would have been no object with them; that they would gladly have lent it to us without interest, and repeated his regret at the disappointment which had prevented them. He appeared rather uneasy and desirous of waiving the subject.

Mr Jay next called the Count's attention to a part of the paper in question, which informed him "that there were hints (though no credit was given to it) of some understanding between America and the Court of London." He observed, that this subject was both delicate and important; that so far as this understanding related to Congress, or the governments of either of the States, he was sure that this insinuation was entirely groundless; that there might possibly be intriguing individuals, who might have given cause to such suspicions; that if there were such men or bodies of men it would be for the good of the common cause that they should be detected, and their designs frustrated. He therefore requested, that if his Excellency had any evidence on this subject, he would be pleased to communicate it, and thereby enable him to give Congress an opportunity of taking such measures as circumstances might render proper. The Count said, he had nothing specific or particular as yet to communicate. That he was pursuing measures for further discoveries, and that he would mention to Mr Jay whatever information might result from them.

Mr Jay resumed his animadversions on the paper in question by observing, that it assured him it was necessary, "that Congress should give sure and effective tokens of a good correspondence, proposing reciprocal measures of a compensation, &c. in order that his Majesty might extend his further dispositions towards them." That for his part he could conceive of no higher tokens, which one nation could give to another of friendship and good will, than their commissioning and sending a person for the express purpose of requesting his Majesty to enter into treaties of amity and alliance with them, and that on terms of reciprocity of interest and mutual advantage. To this the Count replied, that to this day he was ignorant of these terms, and that no particular propositions had been made him. Mr Jay then reminded him of his letters from Cadiz, and of the conference on the subject at Aranjues on the 2d day of June last, in the latter of which, after conferring on the subject of aids, and of the treaty, his Excellency had promised to reduce his sentiments on both to writing, and send him notes on each; that as to the first, Mr Jay had received the notes, but not on the last; that he had been in constant expectation of receiving them, and that delicacy forbade pressing his Excellency on that matter, or offering anything further till he should have leisure to complete them.

He said he thought he had given them to Mr Jay or Mr Carmichael, which both of them assured him he had not. Of this the Count appeared after a little time satisfied, when Mr Jay resumed the subject by remarking, that the order of conducting that business appeared to him to be this; that as a right was reserved by the Secret Article to his Majesty to accede to the treaty between France and America whenever he thought proper, and that the latter would go into a discussion of any alteration the King might propose, that should be founded on reciprocity of interest, the first question was whether his Majesty would accede to it as it was, or whether he would propose any and what alterations.

The Count here interrupted Mr Jay by saying, that the interest of France and Spain with respect to America were so distinct, as necessarily to render different treaties necessary. Mr Jay answered, that admitting this to be the case, the treaty with France might be made the basis, and then go on mutatis mutandis. The Count proceeded to say, that it would not conduce to the general pacification to hurry on the treaty; that finding Congress were not disposed to cessions, without which the King would not make a treaty, he thought it best by mutual services and acts of friendship, to continue making way for more condescensions on both sides, and not excite animosities and warmth by discussing points which the King would never yield. That, therefore, Mr Jay might take time to write to Congress on the subject, and obtain their instructions.

He said, that previous to Mr Jay's or M. Gerard's arrival at Madrid, M. Mirales had informed him that Congress would yield the navigation of the Mississippi, but that M. Gerard informed him that Congress had changed their resolution on that subject; that he had mentioned these obstacles to Mr Jay and Mr Carmichael, and it was probable that having done this, he had neglected or forgotten to give Mr Jay the notes in question. Mr Jay here reminded his Excellency, that the conference between them of the 2d day of June last turned among other points on these obstacles, and that they had then mutually expressed hopes that regulations calculated to remove them in a manner satisfactory to both parties might be adopted, and that the conferences respecting them were concluded by his Excellency's promising to give Mr Jay notes of his sentiments on the proposed treaty. The Count admitted this, and made several observations tending to show the importance of this object to Spain, and its determination to adhere to it, saying, with some degree of warmth, that unless Spain could exclude all nations from the Gulf of Mexico, they might as well admit all; that the King would never relinquish it; that the Minister regarded it as the principal object to be obtained by the war, and that obtained, he should be perfectly easy whether or no Spain procured any other cession; that he considered it far more important than the acquisition of Gibraltar, and that if they did not get it, it was a matter of indifference to him whether the English possessed Mobile or not; that he chose always to speak his sentiments plainly and candidly on those occasions, for which reason he generally acted differently from other politicians, in always choosing to commit himself to paper, and appealing to the knowledge of the French Ambassador and others, who had done business with him, for the proofs of this being the principle of his conduct. He concluded by saying he would give his sentiments in writing on this subject to Mr Jay.

Mr Jay made no reply to the Count's remarks on the navigation, but observing, that being little acquainted with the practice of politicians, he was happy in having to treat with a Minister of his Excellency's principles. He added, that there were many points necessary to be adjusted in order to a treaty; that they might proceed to agree upon as many as they could, and with respect to the others, he should state them clearly to Congress, and attend their further instructions.

Mr Jay then again turned the conference to the paper beforementioned, by observing to the Count, that it appeared from it, that the King also expected from Congress equivalents to the supplies formerly afforded, and also the expenses of the war, which it alleged had its origin from them. That as to the first he could only repeat what he had before said, that a general account of them was necessary. That he neither knew the amount of them, nor the terms on which they were granted; that it was a transaction previous to his appointment; that on being furnished with the necessary information, he would transmit it to Congress, and wait their instructions; that an expectation of an equivalent to the expenses sustained by Spain in the war, was inadmissible on every principle. He read the passage in question and remarked, that America could no more be justly chargeable with the expenses of the war sustained by Spain, than Spain could be justly chargeable with the expenses of the war sustained by America. The Count replied, that Mr Jay had mistaken his meaning, and that he urged it merely to show that as the States were deriving considerable advantages from very expensive operations on the part of Spain, that consideration should incline them to more condescension towards the latter.

Mr Jay assured his Excellency that he knew it to be the disposition of Congress to contribute all in their power to the success of the common cause, and that they would on every occasion give proofs of it, and among others, that he was confident they would permit his Majesty to export from thence, during the war, ship timber and masts for the royal navy, and would readily consent to such measures as might be proper and necessary for facilitating it. He further observed that having been informed by M. Gardoqui that his Majesty would like to take and finish a seventyfour gun ship now on the stocks in one of the eastern ports, on which it was said no work was doing, he would with pleasure write to Congress, and propose their transferring her to his Majesty at prime cost. That this previous step was necessary, as Congress might perhaps intend that vessel for particular services, but he was confident they would otherwise be happy in indulging his Majesty's inclinations. The Count appeared pleased with this. He said, that with respect to timber they stood most in need at present of yards, and should be glad to obtain a supply of them from Congress. That as to the ship, he wished to be informed exactly of her present state, and the materials wanted to complete and equip her, which he observed might be sent from the Havana, and whether a crew of Americans could be had to navigate her there. Mr Jay replied, that though he was sure that Congress would readily give their aid in these and other matters interesting to Spain, yet he could not forbear reminding his Excellency as a friend, that public business done under the direction of public bodies was always more expensive than when done by individuals. That, therefore, he would submit it to his consideration whether it would not be more advisable to commit the management of those affairs to the agent, intended to succeed M. Mirales, who, by being on the spot, would have opportunities of acting on exact information, and in a manner more consistent with the views of his Excellency. The Count agreed in this opinion, and promised to communicate to Mr Jay his further intentions on this subject.

Mr Jay informed the Minister, that as his further stay here would now be unnecessary, and business called him to Madrid, he purposed to return there on Monday next. The Count concurred and the conference ended.

Congress will permit me to observe that many things in this conference are important, and demand instructions. I forbear to point them out, because they are obvious; and I take the liberty of giving this hint from a knowledge of the delays attending the proceedings of large bodies.

I returned to Madrid on the day appointed; and whether to accept or not to accept the bills became a very serious question. After reviewing all the reasons for and against it, which are numerous, and which Congress will readily perceive without a particular enumeration, I determined to put a good face on the business, and accept all that should be presented, which I have accordingly done, and am daily doing. What the event will be I cannot pretend to decide. All that I can say is, that my endeavors shall not be wanting to render it successful. The responsibility of the King will not produce much, and the difficulty of borrowing money has been increased, by the number of agents sent to Europe for that purpose by several of the different States, who I am told have imprudently bidden on each other.

M. Gardoqui returned to Madrid a few days after I did, and brought me word from the Minister, that instructions should be sent to their Ambassadors in Holland and France, to assure in due form the responsibility of the King to such persons as might there incline to lend us money on the credit of it, and that the Minister would do the same here. He told me further, that the Minister hoped I would not be discouraged, nor consider this only on the dark side, for that it was still his intention to afford America every aid in his power. All this I ascribe to the exertions of America, and I am confident, that it will always be necessary for the United States to be formidable at home, if they expect to be respectable anywhere.

For my own part, I shall be disappointed, if I find Courts moving on any other principle than political ones, and, indeed, not always on those. Caprice, whim, the interests and passions of individuals, must and will always have greater or less degrees of influence. America stands very high here, at present. I rejoice at it, though I must confess I much fear that such violent exertions may be followed by languor and relaxation. What the plan of this Court is with respect to us, or whether they have any, is with me very doubtful. If they have rejected all the overtures of Britain, why is Mr Cumberland still here? And why are expresses passing between Madrid and London through Portugal? If Spain is determined that we shall be independent, why not openly declare us so, and thereby diminish the hopes and endeavors of Britain to prevent it? She seems to be desirous of holding the balance, of being in some sort a mediatrix, and of courting the offers of each by her supposed importance to both. The drawing of bills on me was considered as a desperate measure, prompted by our imbecility, and was a bad card to play at a time we were endeavoring to form a treaty, and when prudence demanded that the importance of Spain to us should not have been brought forward, or placed in such a glaring point of view.

One good consequence, however, has resulted from it. The cordiality of Spain has been tried by it. For I know of a certainty, that it was in her power easily to have made the loan we asked. Indeed, we shall always be deceived, if we believe that any nation in the world has, or will have, a disinterested regard for us, especially absolute monarchies, where the temporary views or passions of the Prince, his Ministers, his women, or his favorites, not the voice of the people, direct the helm of State. Besides, from the manner in which the war is carrying on, it would seem as if it was the design of France and Spain that the longest purse, not the longest sword, should decide it. Whether such be really their intention, or how far it may be politic, I cannot pretend to determine. This, however, is certain, that it would be putting the affair on a hard issue for us. It is also certain, that some respect is due to appearances and probable events, and we should be cautious how we spend our money, our men, or our public spirit, uselessly.

In my opinion, we should endeavor to be as independent on the charity of our friends, as on the mercy of our enemies. Jacob took advantage even of his brother's hunger, and extorted from him a higher price than the value of the Mississippi even for a single dinner. The way not to be in Esau's condition, is to be prepared to meet with Jacob's.

From what I can learn of the King's character, I am persuaded, that a present from Congress of a handsome fast sailing packet boat would be very acceptable, and consequently very useful.

I am informed, and believe, that a loan from individuals in France is impracticable. Here nothing can be done in that way. What may be expected from the like attempts in Holland, I am unable to say.

I have received no answer to my letter to Count de Vergennes; the Ambassador informs me, that the Count has written him on the subject, and the following is an extract from his letter.

Translation.

"I doubt whether I shall be able to render Mr Jay the service he requests of me, independently of what the Ministry has furnished the Americans in the course of the year. Dr Franklin is urgent for a million extra, to meet the drafts of Congress to the 31st of December. I am sensible how important it is to prevent them from being returned protested, but the difficulty is to find the means. I shall do my best in this exigency, but am not sure of success; beyond this, it would be impossible for me to go."

Dr Franklin has obtained some more money from his Court, and I am to have twentyfive thousand dollars of it; perhaps he may be able to advance more, but how much, I cannot say.

November 1st, 1780. No orders have as yet been given respecting the clothing. I have applied and reapplied, and have been promised and repromised. I employed Mr Harrison, at Cadiz, (with the Minister's concurrence) to make the purchase, and he has several weeks been waiting for these orders.

General Gates is defeated, and Mr Laurens in the Tower. Our sky in this quarter is again darkened with clouds not in my power to dispel.

I had flattered myself with receiving before this time some regulations respecting American seamen.

The house of Le Couteulx have refused to continue their care of them, or to advance more money on that account. They complain that the American Captains under various pretexts refuse to give them passages, without being paid for them. This is cruel.

The following are copies of their letter to me on the subject, and my answer.

LE COUTEULX & CO. TO JOHN JAY.

"Cadiz, October 3d, 1780.

"Sir,

"Our supplies for the American sailors amount at this day to —— We will continue to render them every service in our power, but will confess to you ingenuously, that if you do not furnish us with an order from Congress, by which you empower us to oblige all American Captains, who come here, to take a certain number of people, in proportion to their bulk, free of passage, and afterwards so many more on paying them a certain sum for their provisions, we can advance nothing; as all the Captains who come here never fail of showing good motives for not taking any of their fellow countrymen, without paying them a passage, which forces us to let the people go on board neutral vessels; and instead of fulfilling your views of sending them back as soon as possible, this is a means by which they get still further from it, and a great many engage in the English service."

TO LE COUTEULX & CO.

"Madrid, October 15th, 1780.

"Gentlemen,

"I have been honored with your favor of the 3d instant, and am much obliged by your attention to the letter it enclosed. You were not mistaken in supposing that the handwriting was mine. That letter was enclosed in one for Mr Harrison, and sent under cover to you.

"It gives me concern to find that you have so much trouble with American seamen, and I much lament that it is not in my power to comply with the terms on which alone you incline to continue it. I have written more than once to Congress on the subject, and submitted to their consideration the propriety of establishing proper regulations for the conduct of that business, but as yet I have received none. I presume that their attention has been so engaged by other matters of higher and more pressing importance, as not to have had leisure for making these arrangements. The refusal of American Captains to give passages to their unfortunate countrymen is certainly unkind. I shall communicate to Congress, and I hope proper measures will be taken to remove that obstacle. At any rate, however, I cannot leave these unhappy captives friendless, in a strange country. The unfeeling treatment of the Captains rather stimulates than represses my commiseration, and, therefore, Gentlemen, as it is not convenient to you to proceed in your care of them, but on terms not in my power to comply with, I find myself reduced to the necessity of requesting that favor from others. For this purpose I have written to Mr Harrison of your city, and proposed his undertaking it, and have desired him in case he consented, to mention it to you. On that event I must beg the favor of you to give him such information and advice, as may be useful to him in the management of those affairs. Be pleased also to liquidate your accounts with him; they shall be paid without further delay.

"The attention and kind offices you have regularly paid to Americans, and the personal civilities that myself and family experienced from you, while at Cadiz, will always continue to excite my warmest acknowledgments, and lead me to omit no opportunity of convincing you of the esteem and regard, with which I am, Gentlemen, &c.

JOHN JAY."

I have before mentioned to Congress my difficulties as to correspondence. They continue, and I am obliged to give Colonel Livingston the trouble of carrying this letter to Bilboa, and delivering it with his own hands to the Captain of some American vessel. Congress might have letters from me every month, if orders were given to the Captains of the vessels bringing despatches for me, to send a trusty officer with them to me. I know that all are opened, and some suppressed, and I can think of no other way of avoiding these inconveniences. It is important that our correspondence be uninterrupted.

I have written very particularly, perhaps more so than may be prudent, but as I think it my duty, I pay no regard to consequences. If Congress will be equally well satisfied with less minute information, I wish to be told so, that their direction on this head may govern me in future. I cannot forbear again observing, that few of their proceedings remain long secret. I have very good authority for saying that copies of the letters, which passed between the Committee and the late Commissioners in France, are now in the hands of a certain foreigner. How he got them I do not know, but such is the fact, and in my opinion it calls for more care in future.

If my letters meet with the same fate, my remaining here will become a useless expense to my country.

I think I have written everything material to enable Congress to know the exact state of their affairs here. If, however, there should be any questions to which an answer would be agreeable to Congress, I wish to be informed of them; for since I left America, I have made it a rule to be always in a capacity to render a reason for every part of my conduct, and state with accuracy every fact relative to it.

I have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY.

FOOTNOTE:

TO THE PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS.

Madrid, November 30th, 1780.

Sir,

Your Excellency will receive herewith enclosed certain papers from Morocco, viz.

No. 1. Containing a letter of the 21st of April last, to me from Audibert Caille, who styles himself the "Consul appointed by the Emperor for such foreign nations as have none of their own in his dominions, to protect the strangers who may come to traffic in his ports pursuant to two proclamations published last year."

No. 2. My answer.

No. 3. Copy of M. Audibert's appointment.

No. 4. Copy of a declaration of the Emperor, 20th of February, 1778.

No. 5. A letter from M. Audibert Caille to Congress of 6th of September, 1779. Also, six printed copies of M. Audibert Caille's certificates.

These papers ought to have been sent with my letters of May last, but recollecting as I was then about to put them up, that if the originals should be lost on the passage, it might be difficult to obtain others, I thought it most prudent to detain them to be copied, and wait for some other opportunity of getting them to the sea; none has, however, since occurred, and I did not think them of sufficient importance to render it necessary that either Mr Carmichael or Colonel Livingston should carry them to one of the sea ports.

It is proper that your Excellency should be informed, that on the 8th instant I had a conference with the Minister at the Escurial, in which I received many good words and friendly assurances, but time only can decide how they will terminate. I received a letter yesterday from Mr Harrison, of the 24th instant, and then no orders had arrived about the clothing. These delays may seem singular, but they are not uncommon. Mr Cumberland is still here. The French and English fleets are at sea.

Although appearances are not very flattering at present, I hope they will in time become more so. Patience, prudence, and perseverance, sometimes effect much. It is in my opinion very important that no dissatisfaction be expressed in America at the conduct of Spain. Complaint and disgust can answer no good purpose, but may be productive of many disagreeable consequences. A cautious silence is the more necessary, as I am confident that there are persons in America, who would make a merit of collecting and transmitting the sentiments of Congress, or members of Congress, on subjects interesting to the views and objects of persons in power here.

Colonel Livingston would have returned this fall at the expiration of the term expressed in his leave of absence, had I not taken the liberty of advising him to remain, and taken upon myself to adjust this matter with Congress. As he is employed, and industrious in obtaining knowledge, which may enable him to be useful in future to his country, I must join with him in requesting that Congress will be so kind as to extend his leave of absence to such further period as may be agreeable to them.

The enclosed paper marked No. 6, is a copy of a State of the Revenues and Expenditures of Spain, in the year 1778. It was formed by a Secretary to one of the embassies, and a copy of it was given to Mr Carmichael. I received it the last day of July, and had no safe opportunity of sending it before. What credit may be due to this account I cannot determine, and I have reason to think that there are few men in the kingdom who can. This government, disposed to concealment and mystery in most matters, will not probably permit an accurate knowledge of their revenues to be easily attained. This account is perhaps as near the truth as any other. The gentleman, it is said, took much pains in forming it, and it also met with the approbation of some foreign Ministers; but how far those Ministers were judges of the subject I am uninformed. The remarks subjoined to this account are Mr Carmichael's, and were added to the copy I received from him.

I send copies of several letters, which passed between Messrs de Neufville and Son, of Amsterdam, and myself, relative to the bills drawn on Mr Laurens.[26] The conduct of that House has been so friendly and disinterested, that I think Congress should be particularly informed of it, and by taking proper notice of it, induce others to follow the example.

I have the honor to be, &c.

JOHN JAY.

FOOTNOTE:

No. 1. FROM D'AUDIBERT CAILLE TO JOHN JAY.

Translation.

Aranjues, April 21st, 1780.

Sir,

By order of his Majesty the Emperor of Morocco, I wrote on the 6th of September in the last year to the Congress of the United States of North America, by way of his Excellency Dr Franklin, their Plenipotentiary at the Court of France, to inform them of the pacific intentions of that sovereign.

Not having yet received any answer on their part, I fear they have not received my letter, and by way of precaution, send your Excellency herewith joined an open copy, that after perusing it, you may make such use of it as you may think proper. I also send you a copy of the two manifests therein mentioned, as well as a translation of the patent of the consuls for foreign nations, with which his Majesty the Emperor has been pleased to honor me, and some copies of the certificates which he ordered me to give to the captains of ships, which sail under his flag.