TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN (continued 2)

Mr. Griffin. Now, was Vaughn under your direction at that time?

Mr. Dean. No, sir. Vaughn has never worked for me directly.

Mr. Griffin. How about Nelson?

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. How about Bobby Patterson?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir. Patterson worked for me when I was assigned to the area in the 100, district 100, in the downtown area.

Mr. Griffin. And was that the area that Jack Ruby's nightclub was in?

Mr. Dean. Patterson occasionally worked on the district that Ruby's Carousel Club was on. Not as a regular man.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know if Patterson was friendly with Ruby?

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. You just don't know?

Mr. Dean. I don't know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you consider yourself a friend of Patterson's?

Mr. Dean. Not intimately; no, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you see Patterson on a social basis?

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Does Patterson still work under your direction?

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Whose direction is he under now?

Mr. Dean. Sergeant Jennings, W. G. Jennings. He is still assigned to that area. Not the specific district that the Carousel was on, or has been on, but let's see—I don't recall exactly what district he is assigned to; 103 I believe.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead, if there is anything else. Incidentally, on this date, have we turned the page on that? The date there, why don't you make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why you can be free to do it [indicating].

Mr. Dean. I would like to clarify this one thing. "On occasions when driving in the area with another officer, he would go up to the Carousel, usually once or twice a week." This is true, as far as once or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. However, this—with another officer is erroneous. Usually it would be with some friend of mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Why don't you put that down?

Mr. Dean. Mutual friend or——

Mr. Griffin. This would be somebody that would be interested in sort of riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir. "In addition, Dean said he had gone to the club while off duty on four occasions." I would say four would be the outside, but I think I have been there only three times since I have known him, since 1960 or 1961 [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you change that, then. When is the time you were there most recently?

Mr. Dean. The last time I had been in his place was—well, we will say relative to the shooting, I haven't been in there since, and I think 6 or 8 months before would be the last time I had been in there, and in fact, that long since I had seen Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know any of Ruby's employees?

Mr. Dean. By name. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. But you knew them to talk to?

Mr. Dean. To speak only. The people that were in the trial, well, George Senator, I didn't know his name. I couldn't place it—knew the face but I didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender regularly at the club.

Mr. Griffin. Now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in 1960 or 1961?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir. He was a regular there all the time that I worked there, or worked in that area.

Mr. Griffin. Who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember from the Carousel Club?

Mr. Dean. I don't believe I recognized anyone, other than this fellow George Senator.

Mr. Griffin. Was there a Negro man named Andy Armstrong that testified at the trial?

Mr. Dean. I don't know. I don't know Andy Armstrong.

Mr. Griffin. He is one of Ruby's workers there.

Okay. Anything else in there that [indicating]——

Mr. Dean. Well, I would like for the record to show that my visits while off duty to the Carousel was definitely an exception rather than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there frequently on duty, I knew—or there had never been any trouble in there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. I knew it was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to someone that hadn't seen it. So this is the exception that I went there. I recall now, by reading this investigation by the FBI, that soon after I had left the basement after this shooting, or left the immediate area where Oswald was laying, I do recall now asking R. C. Nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. This was reflected in this—I do remember. I wanted it to show that I do remember now, after reading that.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me stop you here, Sergeant.

Mr. Dean. All right.

Mr. Griffin. Let me direct your attention to one portion of that report. Have you read that portion of the report which deals with this lengthy discussion that you and I had about the talk, the one talk you had with Ruby on the date that Ruby shot Oswald; have you read that portion of the report?

Mr. Dean. In the FBI report?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Dean. Let's see. I don't recall reading it. You mean now have I read it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Have you just read it?

Mr. Dean. No; I haven't read it.

Mr. Griffin. Would you find that, or I can maybe find it for you quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from Ruby at that time?

Mr. Dean. If it's included in this report [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Yes. And I don't have simply reference to the discussion about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance that he told you during that interview?

Mr. Dean. I believe that this February 18 report would—the FBI report doesn't include—it has the questions that I asked of Ruby and not of Sorrels, if that's what you mean, it does. But this February 18 report is what [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you, then, what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5010. It's a copy of a letter signed by you, dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police. Did you prepare that letter?

Mr. Dean. Yes; I did [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. And let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy of the actual original letter that you sent?

Mr. Dean. That's a copy I made myself, a Xerox copy [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Did you write that letter on the basis of any notes?

Mr. Dean. No, sir; from memory.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are recounted in that February 18th letter, other than the letter dated November 26, to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5009, and this interview report, which we have designated 5008; are there any other writings that you prepared prior to February 18?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir; there is one report that I had written regarding the article in the newspaper, that I had seen Ruby come into the basement.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Dean. Do you have that?

Mr. Griffin. I don't know if I have got that or not. Could you get us a copy of that? I don't know if we have that or not.

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir; now, I think the FBI made several—or made a report of that, also. The investigation about the department there, I don't know——

Mr. Griffin. Well, I know they made an investigation of it, and I don't have the actual copy of the report. I have got the results of their investigation but not the report.

Mr. Dean. I see.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Other than that report on the newspaper article and these two other exhibits that I have referred to, are there any other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as recounted in this February 18——

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Letter. Now, how did you come to write this letter of February 18, 1964?

Mr. Dean. Chief Stevenson called me, while I was in the office on that date, and asked me to come up to see him, and I did. And he asked me was I present during the entire interview with Ruby and Mr. Sorrels. I told him I was. And he asked me did I remember most of the interview; could I recollect most of the interview and the answers that Ruby had given and I said, "Yes, sir." Then he advised me to make a report of it, asked me would I make a report of it, recalling everything that I could of that interview. To the best of my knowledge, that's all I could remember. And I did testify to all this stuff in the trial.

Mr. Griffin. Is this the first time that you told anyone that Ruby had told Sorrels that he thought about killing Oswald two nights prior when he saw him in the showup room?

Mr. Dean. Well, I don't recall telling it to any particular person. I knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, I felt, since it was—did make an impression on me, that I could remember it, and it's written as I do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates pretty well, even though we didn't get together with Mr. Sorrels' report.

Mr. Griffin. But you can't remember?

Mr. Dean. Talking to anyone especially or specifically about what Ruby had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he had been there; no, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Or of any particular reference to the statement that Ruby made to Sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about killing Oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever——

Mr. Dean. No, sir; I did feel at the time that I would probably testify to this in court. I did witness Mr. Sorrels taking his notes, and I felt if I had to, since I did witness it, I could use the notes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I think there is one other exhibit that I haven't identified. We have talked about it, and that's Exhibit 5009, which is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963.

Would you look at Exhibit 5009 [indicating]?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir; that's my report [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. And you have read that over many times, have you not?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir; I would like for you to sign both 5008 and 5009.

Mr. Dean. All right.

Mr. Griffin. Are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make to that?

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will [indicating].

Mr. Dean. All right.

Mr. Griffin. And let me hand you 5010, and ask you to sign that and date it [indicating].

Mr. Dean. It's been signed—of course, this is a Xerox copy. Do you want me to go ahead and sign it again?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Dean. All right [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Would you take this one here, Exhibit 5008, and would you sign that and date it [indicating]?

Mr. Dean. Where [indicating]?

Mr. Griffin. On the front page, I think probably is just as well [indicating]. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. Sergeant, you and I have been talking here off the record for—I don't have a watch, but I would guess for 15 or 20 minutes, with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information that apparently had not been previously made available to the Commission, and I wonder if you could tell us what that is?

Mr. Dean. It was relative to a telephone call that I received last night at about 2 o'clock in the morning. I didn't mark the time.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you?

Mr. Dean. At city hall. In the office there. The city hall operator had called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line from Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, and that she had been—this operator had told her she had been talking to a man in Victoria about some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did I want to take the call, and it wasn't—it was a collect call, and the operator said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious and had something that possibly could be used by the Warren Commission. And, of course, I heard some of the conversation, and the man sounded rational, and the operator in Victoria, her name was Bernice Williamson, she is the night supervisor of the B.C. Telephone Company, said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he probably had something. And so I accepted the call. This man's name was Ralph Simpson. He was calling from 384-3780, and he told me that he had been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed would have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney—and the name of the attorney was Batter [spelling] B-a-t-t-e-r, is what I got, and that Batter advised him to call someone here, but not the Warren Commission. And he asked me—when I accepted the call, he asked me what I would suggest, and I told him that first he should mail them to the Warren Commission. And then he asked me had I been to the Warren Commission. He recognized my name, that I had been testifying, and I said, "Yes; and I am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." And he said, "Well, I will send the films to you. They haven't been—". Well, he said they hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, that he would send them to me airmail. This was about 2 o'clock in the night—on the morning of the 24th, this morning [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. All right. You have in front of you, Sergeant, a piece of paper?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir; what I took notes——

Mr. Griffin. Are those your original notes?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Can I mark that for identification?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark this, "Dallas. Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5012." Now, let me see if I understand you correctly. This was a collect call placed from Canada to the police department?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. By a man by the name of Simpson, Ralph Simpson?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Did you actually talk with Simpson?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. How long did the telephone call last?

Mr. Dean. Four minutes and three seconds, I think.

Mr. Griffin. Is this the name of the operator that put the call through, Bernice Williamson?

Mr. Dean. She was the Victoria operator.

Mr. Griffin. Did you get the name of the city operator?

Mr. Dean. The city operator was Patsy. I don't know her last name. Patsy. She is the night operator at city hall.

Mr. Griffin. Would you indicate that Patsy handled that? Did Patsy listen in on the call?

Mr. Dean. Yes [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. And have you talked with her about this since?

Mr. Dean. No, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on it.

Mr. Griffin. And is there a record of that in the police department?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Can you get that for us?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. I would appreciate that.

Mr. Dean. Now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges she said that the operator had further checked this number 384-3780, and that number was—the call was made from the residence of the initials R. H. W., last name [spelling] S-m-e-l-e [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Who had checked that, now?

Mr. Dean. The police department——

Mr. Griffin. Patsy?

Mr. Dean. No, sir; this night supervisor, Bernice Williamson in Canada, had contacted the police department there and asked them could they cross that number, or furnish her the address or name.

Mr. Griffin. Did Bernice Williamson tell you this after you finished the telephone call?

Mr. Dean. She told Patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is——

Mr. Griffin. Patsy reconveyed that to you?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. And you learned this from Patsy after the conversation with Simpson?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir; this R. H. W. Smele has an address of 1141 Caldonia in Victoria.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Have you reported this to anybody else?

Mr. Dean. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. I appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much.

Would you sign that exhibit, Sergeant?

Mr. Dean. [Indicating.]

Mr. Griffin. We will certainly look into that right away.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. All right. Sergeant, we have been off the record here awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been here on vacation and some other thing. Will you tell us what else?

Mr. Dean. He said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned of the President's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide scope—he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he believed that he had gotten the assassination. He was taking pictures at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the building in the background, because it's in direct trajectory of the line of fire. My impression of him was that since he said that he had talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw them away or what. When he told me that he would send them to me, that he said, "You can have them. I haven't developed them, and you don't have to send me any copies of them back."

Mr. Griffin. Will you notify us as soon as they receive those films?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. And turn them over to us?

Mr. Dean. Yes, sir. You want all the records from the city hall operator?

Mr. Griffin. Telephone call; yes.

Mr. Dean. This has been signed and dated [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to read this or not, but this is what I have marked as Exhibit 5011, which is an interview with you by Special Agent Paul Scott of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 9, 1963. Would you look that over and then——

Mr. Dean. Sign it?

Mr. Griffin. Sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to make in it.

Mr. Dean. [Indicating.]

Mr. Griffin. Then let me state for the record that I appreciate very much the assistance that Sergeant Dean has given us here this evening, and I hope, and I am sure that if anything further comes to light which he thinks would be of value to the Commission, that he will come forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today?

Mr. Dean. Burt, this—of course, I was cleared of all of this, as far as this newspaper article——

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Dean. I was just wondering if you had the FBI report on it?

Mr. Griffin. We do. And I just wanted to make sure that as far as any statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, I think I have shown you every one that we have on it.

Mr. Dean. All right.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. That's all.