TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD GIBSON (continued 2)

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he asked Gary's permission and Gary said all right.

Mr. Jenner. That was in your presence?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that permission requested before he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October? He obtained his job at Jaggars, remember, on the 12th of October.

Mrs. Gibson. I believe it was before. He said he needed to establish a residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there had been any calls for him or messages during the day.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were there any calls or messages?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not that I recall. I don't believe there were.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall him looking for work during this period? That would be the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of October.

Mrs. Gibson. I really don't know. If he had a job, it doesn't seem that he would be looking for a job.

Mr. Jenner. He was at the Texas Employment Commission on the 9th, 10th, and 11th.

Mrs. Gibson. Then probably he was. And if he gave our address and our phone number; I am sure he was.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't recall where he was staying during that period?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Could he have been staying at Hall's?

Mrs. Gibson. Gee, it is possible, but I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall that he did stay at the Hall's a good deal or portions of the time that Marina was there?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he went there weekends, as I recall, when he was working. He spent the weekends there.

Mr. Jenner. When he was working at Jaggars?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So when he began to work at Jaggars, which was the 12th of October, up to the 3d of November when you and your husband, Mr. Taylor, took the Oswalds to the Elsbeth Street apartment, he visited at the Hall's on weekends?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So there was some place he was staying then himself during that period?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; there must have been.

Mr. Jenner. Did Mrs. Hall live in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Fort Worth is approximately 30 miles?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. From Dallas, isn't it?

Mrs. Gibson. He didn't stay in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. He stayed in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you can't recall still where he stayed in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I have no idea.

Mr. Jenner. But it is now your definite recollection that he did stay in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I know that——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—after he became employed at Jaggars?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that he was staying in Dallas at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats between the two of you along about this time?

Mrs. Gibson. No; we had been spatting all our life.

Mr. Jenner. I mean were you on speaking terms?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I'd say so.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up Oswald in front of the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess so.

Mr. Jenner. Bring him to your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus.

Mr. Jenner. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of temperance or intemperance, drinking?

Mrs. Gibson. I never saw him take a drink.

Mr. Jenner. Did he smoke?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't think he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina smoke?

Mrs. Gibson. On the sly.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Gibson. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any makeup.

Mr. Jenner. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home?

Mrs. Gibson. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it across to each other, you know.

Mr. Jenner. How did she communicate with you?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands, you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I do know this about makeup and smoking.

Mr. Jenner. Were there arguments between them on the subject?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke.

Mr. Jenner. What about his reading habits?

Mrs. Gibson. He read a lot.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that?

Mrs. Gibson. My father had given him books to read. He was very much interested in them.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your place?

Mrs. Gibson. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm."

Mr. Jenner. What is that book about?

Mrs. Gibson. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a takeoff on people. Orwell—did he write it?

Mr. Jenner. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to read?

Mrs. Gibson. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember any other books?

Mrs. Gibson. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read.

Mr. Jenner. Did he indicate that he had read it before?

Mrs. Gibson. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography?

Mr. Jenner. "Mein Kampf"?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he read the Marx book—what was that, was that the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism?

Mr. Jenner. "Das Kapital"?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his literature.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was Natasha or Evalina?

Mrs. Gibson. I know Natasha.

Mr. Jenner. How did Natasha come into this?

Mrs. Gibson. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure I have got the right one.

Mr. Jenner. I can't give it to you.

Mrs. Gibson. You don't have it?

Mr. Jenner. I can't because I don't know.

Mrs. Gibson. You can't because you don't have it? Really?

Mr. Jenner. Really.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part.

Mr. Jenner. Was she a single lady?

Mrs. Gibson. No; she has a husband.

Mr. Jenner. They lived in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles. Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now, whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I figured probably she would know them. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. You were speculating?

Mrs. Gibson. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have no idea.

Mr. Jenner. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her moving into the Hall's?

Mrs. Gibson. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are very vague.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his mother in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Gibson. Maybe.

Mr. Jenner. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say this?

Mr. Jenner. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced or attempted to renounce his American citizenship?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject even discussed?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the Russians wanted him to give it up.

Mr. Jenner. And he declined to?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina politically minded?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I wouldn't say so.

Mr. Jenner. But she was religious?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I'd say she was.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he was very intelligent.

Mr. Jenner. Was he articulate?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what about his argumentation?

Mrs. Gibson. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he was saying.

Mr. Jenner. He was strong in his convictions?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Unbending?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered or prone to violence?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he was very quick tempered.

Mr. Jenner. He flared up, did he, during these arguments?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And other things, with your husband?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted, I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call us stupid a lot.

Mr. Jenner. Was that because you differed in your view?

Mrs. Gibson. Differed with him.

Mr. Jenner. From him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could you possibly say such a thing?"

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When did they go to Haiti?

Mrs. Gibson. Last year some time.

Mr. Jenner. June of 1963.

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago.

Mr. Jenner. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, did they?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment, of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions. Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your home was longer than 3 to 4 days?

Mrs. Gibson. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks I must have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time of 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs. Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of this Commission?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130 which created the Commission?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission under which depositions are taken?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you understand from all those papers that the Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which you have now elucidated.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of this subject?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience.