TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED (continued 2)

Mr. Pic. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present him and Robert got along real good.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion.

Mr. Pic. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was completely withdrawn from the crowd.

Mr. Jenner. He withdrew from everybody?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was me, maybe it was both of us.

In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay in rather than quit, and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January 1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my wife and I, to see her.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw her on those occasions?

Mr. Pic. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not elaborate.

Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk to or no one to do anything with."

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with respect to truancy in attendance at school?

Mr. Pic. I am not quite there, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point of January 1953 you were not aware.

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to time during that period?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in the Coast Guard.

Mr. Pic. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem.

She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. That is all I could suggest.

Mr. Jenner. What was her response to that?

Mr. Pic. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the psychiatrist, he wasn't going.

Mr. Jenner. She had no control over him?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you were quite aware of that, were you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss that with her?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something that had suddenly arisen or——

Mr. Pic. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time went by.

Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and take yourself back.

Mr. Pic. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. What did you and Robert do about it?

Mr. Pic. Not much, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had the love and affection for you?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14–16. There was no big troubles he got into that any kid does.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, first?

Mr. Pic. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age group.

Mr. Jenner. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out and play with other children?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go out and play.

Mr. Jenner. Was that noticeable to you?

Mr. Pic. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to school, both. I wasn't there to observe this.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally.

Mr. Jenner. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite headstrong?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty well lost any influence or control over him?

Mr. Pic. That is absolutely true, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January 1953.

Mr. Pic. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of time?

Mr. Pic. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen her on several occasions.

Mr. Jenner. During this——

Mr. Pic. Downtown where she worked.

Mr. Jenner. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer of 1953 or had she changed jobs?

Mr. Pic. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this period of time rather than Lerner's?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection?

Mr. Pic. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them.

Mr. Jenner. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with fellow workers at these various shops?

Mr. Pic. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized answer.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was.

Mr. Pic. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it.

Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next job was better.

Mr. Jenner. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next date you gave, September of 1953?

Mr. Pic. August-September 1953.

Mr. Jenner. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion with her about Lee?

Mr. Pic. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have anybody to confide in, things like this.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was working out fine.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't afford to do, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had a wife and child by that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was your compensation?

Mr. Pic. For what, sir?

Mr. Jenner. In the service at this time.

Mr. Pic. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month.

Mr. Jenner. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And were you contributing to the support of that whole family unit?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mother-in-law, wife and child?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income tax, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your service your mother as a dependent?

Mr. Pic. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, I don't remember, sir, that incident at all.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953.

Mr. Jenner. Where did her sister live?

Mr. Pic. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at the Naval hospital there for school purposes.

When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address.

Mr. Jenner. Why not?

Mr. Pic. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me and I didn't have too much to say to her.

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time there came about a substantially complete rupture then between yourself and your mother?

Mr. Pic. To a certain degree.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior to that.

Mr. Jenner. You did see him——

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right; go ahead.

Mr. Pic. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we lived there almost 2 years.

I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Halfmoon, which is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week periods at a time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, and you have the letters referring to this, sir.

It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that my mother called me from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. By telephone?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again.

Mr. Jenner. You were then in New York?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. Pic. My mother informed me of this fact.

Mr. Jenner. By letter?

Mr. Pic. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my mother—let me make sure that date is right—I am fairly certain, sir; that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas holidays of 1958—that she visited us.

Mr. Jenner. She did come to New York?

Mr. Pic. Right. She come to—we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here.

She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you learned that through correspondence?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. With her.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people to town and things like this.

Mr. Jenner. I think she was employed for a while in an organization called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization.

Mr. Pic. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was Christmas of 1957, is that right?

Mr. Ely. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon greets people.

Mr. Pic. Is this 1957 when she had that job?

Mr. Jenner. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a position of that character.

Mr. Pic. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the 10th of January, sometime.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mr. Pic. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the Marine Corps. He just liked it.

Mr. Jenner. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is December of 1957. Was he still in the service?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his wife.

Mr. Jenner. He was discharged in the spring of 1956–1957, rather; and stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while.

Mr. Pic. I don't know that.

Mr. Jenner. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines.

Mr. Pic. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe.

Mr. Ely. 1956.

Mr. Jenner. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, mustered out in 1956?

Mr. Pic. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth.

After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail and every now and then a phone call.

Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left Mitchel and departed cross country.

Mr. Jenner. You and your wife and children?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By what, automobile?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By this time you owned an automobile?

Mr. Pic. My second one.

Mr. Jenner. Second one?

Mr. Pic. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen.

Mr. Jenner. Where did she reside then?

Mr. Pic. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind of circle or something?

Mr. Jenner. Do you have that?

Mr. Pic. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124 West Fifth Street, Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. That isn't familiar.

Mr. Jenner. It is not familiar?

Mr. Pic. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time. Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West Fifth Street is probably about the same place.

Mr. Jenner. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident occurred?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am getting to that.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything.

Then the Sunday that we were there—well, prior to this, when we arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?

Mr. Pic. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?

Mr. Pic. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother working at that time?

Mr. Pic. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I know she was working at a candy counter.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was invited to this dinner.

Mr. Jenner. At your brother's?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat. After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me to come get our bags, that we would have to leave.

So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for this when we threw her and Lee out.

I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her, talked to her, anything.

Mr. Jenner. Or seen her.

Mr. Pic. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So, we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Let's suspend for dinner.

Mr. Pic. Could I just add one thing, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan.

Mr. Jenner. You were informed by your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was?

Mr. Pic. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10 November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend.

Mr. Jenner. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you were there in 1958?

Mr. Pic. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and got them and drove back all in the same trip.

Mr. Jenner. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and came to Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a statement.

Mr. Jenner. What testimony of Marilyn Murret?

Mr. Pic. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in Europe.

Mr. Jenner. Who informed you?

Mr. Pic. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I will go into that right after dinner.

Mr. Pic. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. We will suspend until 7:30.

(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)