TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET

The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of your deposition.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, three documents.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive those?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret—and don't feel offended by this—but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Murret. I understand.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, did you not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with you, that you will be able to help us.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I will if I can.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your knowledge.

Mrs. Murret. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.

(Glass of water given to witness.)

Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I am.

Mr. Jenner. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Murret. Claverie.

Mr. Jenner. How do you spell that?

Mrs. Murret. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E.

Mrs. Jenner. And your first name is Lillian?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you born in New Orleans yourself?

Mrs. Murret. New Orleans; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were your brothers and sisters born here?

Mrs. Murret. They were.

Mr. Jenner. In New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana—Cajuns.

Mr. Jenner. Cajun and American?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not my grandparents.

Mr. Jenner. Not your grandparents?

Mrs. Murret. No. On my father's side were from France, and my grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?

Mrs. Murret. What my age is?

Mr. Jenner. How old are you?

Mrs. Murret. I will be 64 in May, May 17.

Mr. Jenner. And how old is Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. I think she should be 57.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret.

Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.

Mr. Jenner. Edward John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that P-I-C?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an explanation for that, do you think?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know which way it is.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took place?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not really too accurate as to years.

Mr. Jenner. Well, as closely as you can come to it.

Mrs. Murret. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 years, we'll say——

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you present? What do you know about that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very long time.

Mr. Jenner. She had known him for some time before she married him?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known him for some time before she married him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was his business or occupation?

Mrs. Murret. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores.

Mr. Jenner. What did he do as a stevedore?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.

Mr. Jenner. He is alive?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. I don't know what the initials stand for.

Mr. Jenner. T. as in Thomas?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And B. as in Benny?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Smith?

Mrs. Murret. Smith, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he is—some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, saw him out there, but it was from a distance.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite married Edward John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. I was already married.

Mr. Jenner. You were already married then?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John Pic, does he?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't guess some of it is.

Mr. Jenner. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the Commission in this investigation.

Mrs. Murret. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and somebody else—lawyers.

Mr. Jenner. Was Sere a lawyer?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer too.

Mr. Jenner. How do you spell his name?

Mrs. Murret. Mr. Sere?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. S-E-R-E.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mr. Sere still alive?

Mrs. Murret. He is not.

Mr. Jenner. He is dead?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about Marguerite's first marriage.

Mrs. Murret. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she told me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that—but she said Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and so forth while she was working.

Mr. Jenner. How old was she then?

Mrs. Murret. Well, let's see—John must be about 31 years old now.

Mr. Jenner. You mean her son John?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.

Mr. Jenner. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. Twenty-six—I don't think she was that old; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, 31 from 57 is 26.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. Let's see—well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Oh—well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22 years.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.

Mr. Jenner. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 years old; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think that's about right.

Mr. Jenner. What was her formal education?

Mrs. Murret. She had a high school education.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.

Mr. Jenner. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, previous to that.

Mr. Jenner. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied to her as to his income, did you not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City Park area; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And she found when they went out there, or whatever occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was making; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And so she went back to work.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't she?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park area. That was when I was referring to.

Mr. Jenner. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. I have forgotten which section that was.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. Was that when they had the house?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that they rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.

Mr. Jenner. Carrollton?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact that she was pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't want any children?

Mrs. Murret. He didn't want any children, that's right.

Mr. Jenner. This would have been when they were married approximately 3 years; would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that.

Mr. Jenner. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close?

Mrs. Murret. We were very close.

Mr. Jenner. Very close?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your brothers and sisters. Your father died when?

Mrs. Murret. My father?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Well, he died about 33 years ago.

Mr. Jenner. Thirty-three years ago?

Mrs. Murret. About that; yes.

Mr. Jenner. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when did your mother die?

Mrs. Murret. My mother died about 1911.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, she preceded your father?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. So when your father died, you children were then orphans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 years of age?

Mrs. Murret. I was married when my father died. I had three children when my father died. One child was a baby.

Mr. Jenner. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?

Mrs. Murret. I have two brothers.

Mr. Jenner. Two brothers?

Mrs. Murret. And we were four sisters.

Mr. Jenner. All right, now give me the brothers' names.

Mrs. Murret. Their names are Charles and John.

Mr. Jenner. Charles Claverie and John Claverie?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Are they alive?

Mrs. Murret. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5 months apart.

Mr. Jenner. Were they teenagers?

Mrs. Murret. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.

Mr. Jenner. Was that Charles or John?

Mrs. Murret. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB.

Mr. Jenner. And he died at age 18?

Mrs. Murret. Around that; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you had four sisters, you say?

Mrs. Murret. Including myself.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; including yourself.

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. One sister was Marguerite.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And yourself, Lillian.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Who else?

Mrs. Murret. Aminthe.

Mr. Jenner. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that pronounced Aminthe?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; Aminthe.

Mr. Jenner. That sounds French, is it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; it's French.

Mr. Jenner. All right, what's the other sister's name?

Mrs. Murret. Pearl. She died.

Mr. Jenner. Pearl is dead?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Aminthe living at the present time?

Mrs. Murret. Aminthe is living in Knoxville.

Mr. Jenner. Knoxville, Tenn.?

Mrs. Murret. Tennessee, yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it Charles was the oldest?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and I was next.

Mr. Jenner. You were next?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; John was next.

Mr. Jenner. John was next?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. John was third.

Mrs. Murret. John was third, that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite was fourth?

Mrs. Murret. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth.

Mr. Jenner. How about Pearl?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, let's see—that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth.

Mr. Jenner. And Pearl was fifth?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How old was Pearl when she died?

Mrs. Murret. She died recently. She was about 54.

Mr. Jenner. She was in her fifties?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she die of natural causes?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occupation of your father?

Mrs. Murret. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. He worked for them approximately around 40 years.

Mr. Jenner. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken out the first mule car, I think—when they had mule cars, before they had the handbrakes on the cars.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal education, beyond high school?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John who died when he was 18?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did John finish high school?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Charles?

Mrs. Murret. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross," and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to someone, and I never did get it back.

Mr. Jenner. How unfortunate.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, you know, back and forth. He was a gunner.

Mr. Jenner. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser?

Mrs. Murret. On the transport.

Mr. Jenner. He was a gunner on a transport?

Mrs. Murret. Transport; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is alive; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. Aminthe is alive too.

Mr. Jenner. Did you complete high school?

Mrs. Murret. I did not. I didn't even go to high school.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you complete elementary school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. What about Pearl?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.

Mr. Jenner. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, or did she?

Mrs. Murret. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We were just trying to keep the family together more or less.

You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.

Mr. Jenner. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I don't want you to think I am just being curious.

Mrs. Murret. No; I understand.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out the family background so that we can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey Oswald. You understand?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.

Mr. Jenner. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her personality.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.

Mr. Jenner. I think she's nice looking.

Mrs. Murret. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.

Mr. Jenner. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were wrong.

Mr. Jenner. How do you and Marguerite get along now?

Mrs. Murret. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls, and how you got along then.

Mrs. Murret. Well, when we were girls, we got along.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with her, anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like that. We did get along pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, because there were things where we just didn't think alike.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Murret. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was wrong.

Mr. Jenner. She thought you were wrong?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about anything. She would just, you know, fly off.

Mr. Jenner. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything that you can recall of that nature?

Mrs. Murret. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.

Mr. Jenner. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they did for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville.

Mr. Jenner. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans area?

Mrs. Murret. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when I first got married, she stayed with me then.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed together.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband and your father and your sister Marguerite stayed together?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman.

Mr. Jenner. What is the business or occupation of your husband?

Mrs. Murret. What is his occupation?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other words.

Mr. Jenner. Different what?

Mrs. Murret. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have work, he will work for someone else.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me what else you know about John Pic.

Mrs. Murret. What else?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, about Edward John Pic.

Mrs. Murret. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, what was the reason or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. No; she left John.

Mr. Jenner. Did she leave him?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Before they were divorced?

Mrs. Murret. Before they were divorced; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that a little?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; if I can.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she would act without thinking things over?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she made up her mind. That's what I mean. In other words, when she would find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick decisions.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl as well as a mature lady?

Mrs. Murret. I don't remember anything like that before she was married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.

Mr. Jenner. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick acting in her personality?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. And you think she failed to think things over, that she didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she needed to reach a decision, is that it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over before I did them, but she wouldn't.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that?

Mrs. Murret. You can call it that if you like.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City Park section, in Carrollton.

Mr. Jenner. Would you spell that for me, please?

Mrs. Murret. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n.

Mr. Jenner. Carrollton?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs from yours.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my southern drawl.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's as long as your arm.

I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, with a sharp enunciation.

Mrs. Murret. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was she working at that time?

Mrs. Murret. No; she was not working then.

Mr. Jenner. How was she being supported?

Mrs. Murret. Eddie was supporting her.

Mr. Jenner. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until he was 18 years old.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 years old, she married Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that in a minute.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward Pic embittered her?

Mrs. Murret. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come over and stay a while, and he did.

Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was cruel, because I don't believe in that.

Mr. Jenner. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she refused to permit her former husband to see the child?

Mrs. Murret. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the child or not. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?

Mrs. Murret. That's right, she wouldn't.

Mr. Jenner. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't know that?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie see the child; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't think, not after he was a child.

Mr. Jenner. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; I imagine she was.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was unusual insofar as personality is concerned?

Mrs. Murret. No; not that I can think of.

Mr. Jenner. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she got alimony for herself.

Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a lot wouldn't know how to do that.

Mr. Jenner. Of course I gather from what you have said—as a matter of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were necessarily poor people.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, or $14 a month house rent—I forget which—and every day he would give us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left out of the $1, believe it or not.

My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day?

Mrs. Murret. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, were out.

I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had a lot of fun.

We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children have to do today.

I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's the thing to do.

Mr. Jenner. What's the Blue Room?

Mrs. Murret. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a place of entertainment?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.

They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like that either.

Mr. Jenner. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to lie about anything.

Mr. Jenner. You never have?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?

Mrs. Murret. I would say, when you put it that way—I would say if she expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do that, well, then that was the wrong thing.

Mr. Jenner. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, or show any emotional trait at all?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be right all the time.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, then you were just wrong.

Mr. Jenner. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it?

Mrs. Murret. She was very independent, in other words. She was very independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would have these little differences.

Mr. Jenner. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would go ahead and give her help again.

Mr. Jenner. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these incidents would arise?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were the older sister and really head of the family?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't act that way?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.

Mr. Jenner. She questioned that?

Mrs. Murret. With me, yes; I mean, about the children.

Mr. Jenner. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your children?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead and tell me about it.

Mrs. Murret. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was just married October 5.

Mr. Jenner. Of what year?

Mrs. Murret. This year, 1963—this past year.

Mr. Jenner. Your son John?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; well, she was over at the house——

Mr. Jenner. Who are you talking about now?

Mrs. Murret. Marguerite

Mr. Jenner. All right, Marguerite was over at the house, and what happened?

Mrs. Murret. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, so Marguerite was over at the house at that time.

Mr. Jenner. You are talking about your house?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and it was a rainy day, and John and this girl friend—we were all in the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, "Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall that was.

Mr. Jenner. Was that just this last fall, in October?

Mrs. Murret. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't seen—this was quite a while previous to that—maybe 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say?

Mrs. Murret. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that time, or after.

Mr. Jenner. Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected.

Mrs. Murret. Let's see. I can't remember when that was now.

Mr. Jenner. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to Russia right after that.

Mrs. Murret. I just can't remember that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on my route.

Mr. Jenner. Lee Oswald was an insurance collector?

Mrs. Murret. For Metropolitan; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He collected insurance premiums?

Mrs. Murret. For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co.

Mr. Jenner. Was that weekly or monthly, or what?

Mrs. Murret. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good insurance man, I think.

Mr. Jenner. He was an energetic man?

Mrs. Murret. He was.

Mr. Jenner. When you first knew him, he was married; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he collected in my area.

Mr. Jenner. He was already divorced from his wife?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had he had any children of that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he did.

Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and Marguerite became acquainted?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic—I'm not too sure of that—and Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally.

Mr. Jenner. He had to leave the church?

Mrs. Murret. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He could go to mass.

Mr. Jenner. He happened to be Catholic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are you Catholic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I am.

Mr. Jenner. All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go ahead.

Mrs. Murret. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of religion. You are Catholic.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you always been Catholic?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the Lutheran religion.

Mr. Jenner. You were baptized in the Lutheran religion?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that we went to Sunday school.

Mr. Jenner. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday school, to the Lutheran church?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so he continued that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted?

Mrs. Murret. No. John Pic—rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite a school, and it was a very nice place.

Mr. Jenner. What's the name of the school?

Mrs. Murret. William T. Frantz, they call it.

Mr. Jenner. How do you spell Frantz?

Mrs. Murret. F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is.

Mr. Jenner. There were two children born of that marriage; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born after his father died.

Mr. Jenner. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't want to change his name.

Mr. Jenner. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony terminated, did it?

Mrs. Murret. I think so, but John still received his.

Mr. Jenner. The child support continued?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in there—he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young woman was in the store——

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are you referring to John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was working in the store—you see, Marguerite didn't have any children then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young woman said to John—he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that he was married or anything, and then this marriage was annulled—an aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. My sister did tell me the story about that.

Mr. Jenner. That marriage was a happy marriage, was it?

Mrs. Murret. The Oswald marriage?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would drop by, but we didn't visit too often.

Mr. Jenner. They had a car and they had a home?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their own home on Alvar Street?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come out, he just toppled over.

Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no insurance on the house, or whatever it was.

Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember where, and then she sold that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did your sister return to work?

Mrs. Murret. Not right away.

Mr. Jenner. Not right away?

Mrs. Murret. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return to work after a period of about 3 years?

Mrs. Murret. About 3 years; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took care of Lee when he was that age.

Mr. Jenner. All right, I would like for you to tell me about that.

Mrs. Murret. When Lee was a very small child?

Mr. Jenner. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that 3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was—I don't know how that came along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and her husband—I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so—in other words, I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would still get out.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by a basement house?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath.

Mr. Jenner. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. She had gone back to work; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What sort of work did she do?

Mrs. Murret. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of the stores in town.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I assume her earnings were small?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. I assume her earnings were small?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; they don't pay too much.

Mr. Jenner. What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time?

Mrs. Murret. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home.

Mr. Jenner. Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans?

Mrs. Murret. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who have one parent.

Mr. Jenner. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be back here at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did you have him?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time.

Mr. Jenner. That was 1948; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient myself.

Mr. Jenner. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when that was?

Mrs. Murret. When she married Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Jenner. No; that you had the care of Lee in your home.

Mrs. Murret. That I had what?

Mr. Jenner. When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, when he was about 3 years old.

Mr. Jenner. That would have been about 1942; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I don't recall exactly how that was now.

Mr. Jenner. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have been 9 years old; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time.

Mr. Jenner. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home on that occasion?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere in there?

Mrs. Murret. Yes sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. He was 3 years old?

Mrs. Murret. About 3; yes.

Mr. Jenner. When he came with you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How old was he when he left?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left me.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem orphanage?

Mrs. Murret. He did. He was out there for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Did he come from your home to the orphanage?

Mrs. Murret. I really don't know that.

Mr. Jenner. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers.

Mrs. Murret. Well, the incident could have been—I don't know if it was that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any more, or something like that; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have any clear recollection on that score?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about 5 years old?

Mrs. Murret. About; yes.

Mr. Jenner. When he left your home?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem orphanage home with his two brothers, do you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit the boys out there at any time?

Mrs. Murret. I visited out there with Marguerite.

Mr. Jenner. And that was on what; a weekend?

Mrs. Murret. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles on the outside, and they went to school, you know, to school in that neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think they would keep those boys there free.

Mr. Jenner. You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. What was that?

Mr. Jenner. She was working?

Mrs. Murret. She was working; yes.

Mr. Jenner. In some department store or something like that here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have been one of these Jean's—what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald—that is, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald—before they were married?

Mrs. Murret. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she knew him at that time or not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her husband, Edward John Pic, separated?

Mrs. Murret. I doubt it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the separation and before the divorce?

Mrs. Murret. That must have been it. She must have known him during that time.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you will. What kind of man was he?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was energetic?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, one of their top salesmen.

Mr. Jenner. And he was an outgoing person, you say?

Mrs. Murret. He seemed to be.

Mr. Jenner. Would you call him an extrovert?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be getting along all right, so far as I could tell.

Mr. Jenner. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we didn't do much visiting.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz."

Mr. Jenner. That's his nickname?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that D-u-t-z?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by the name of "Dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. Does he still use that name?

Mrs. Murret. He does.

Mr. Jenner. Is your telephone listed in that name?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but that, but his family always called him Charles.

Mr. Jenner. What business is he in?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. What is your husband's business again?

Mrs. Murret. He works as a clerk.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Murret. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it helps on the debits, you know.

Mr. Jenner. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But not forward in any other respect?

Mrs. Murret. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Jenner. I mean he was a gentleman?

Mrs. Murret. As far as I know.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know anything about his family?

Mrs. Murret. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one brother who was the godfather of Lee—little Lee Oswald, you know—and I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.

Mr. Jenner. Harvey?

Mrs. Murret. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now?

Mrs. Murret. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more friendship. I don't know why.

Mr. Jenner. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still existed, or was it afterward?

Mrs. Murret. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know or were advised, that was never repaired, was it?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your recollection of that event is what?

Mrs. Murret. What do you mean?

Mr. Jenner. What do you remember about that incident?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I guess, to marry Ed.

Mr. Jenner. His name was Edward Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your best recollection that you met him once before the marriage?

Mrs. Murret. That's all I saw him; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the marriage?

Mrs. Murret. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.

I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a military school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.

Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until he became of school age.

During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could have her other two boys with her on vacation.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Covington?

Mrs. Murret. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, it's off in that direction?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed there with the boys in the summer.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then.

Mr. Jenner. Did they visit you once in a while?

Mrs. Murret. With Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at Covington?

Mrs. Murret. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.

The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she had spoke something about buying a duplex.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like—this is what she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."

Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr. Ekdahl——

Mr. Jenner. Who?

Mrs. Murret. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the end of the Ekdahl affair.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem orphanage after he left the house; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at my house, I would say, between 1½ and 2 years, and then I couldn't keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or something.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of dissension?

Mrs. Murret. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with the other two boys in the home then.

Mr. Jenner. She was quick tempered, would you say?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that's what I mean; yes.

Mr. Jenner. She would flare up in a moment; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where the other party never seems to be doing anything.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation that was warranted, is that what you mean?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own children, and this was her life. She made her own life.

Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.

Mr. Jenner. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you had met him only once, I believe you said?

Mrs. Murret. Once; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Were you at the wedding?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised that she was about to marry him?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed to be doing O.K., you know.

Mr. Jenner. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married in Texas?

Mrs. Murret. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He had a son.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were they not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. She went up to see them, I think.

Mr. Jenner. In Boston?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You think his sister influenced her a lot?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I imagine she was.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you get from what she said to you?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she just said that she thought things would be different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she told me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's what she said.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?

Mrs. Murret. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy.

Mr. Jenner. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their way?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like something happening or something you did or said, something like that. Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know the other side. I only know one side.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to 1941?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.

Mr. Jenner. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. She bought this house on Bartholomew.

Mr. Jenner. And she lived there about a year; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know how long she lived there.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. What street?

Mr. Jenner. Broadway.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. 2136 Broadway?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about the 10th of September 1942.

Mrs. Murret. I know nothing of that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in Algiers?

Mrs. Murret. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?

Mr. Jenner. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it?

Mrs. Murret. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution?

Mrs. Murret. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could be. It was a very old place.

Mr. Jenner. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married him, which squares more with your recollection.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having him at 8 years old.

Mr. Jenner. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in Texas was it that they moved to?

Mrs. Murret. I think it was Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. They moved to Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your recollection on that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I really don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas?

Mrs. Murret. I never knew she lived in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you?

Mrs. Murret. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that, and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired listening to this merry-go-round?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired.

Mrs. Murret. It would be too bad if you did.

Mr. Jenner. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.

Mrs. Murret. Oh.

Mr. Jenner. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you?

Mrs. Murret. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we didn't correspond.

Mr. Jenner. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was living with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys around Christmas time, and that's about all.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Murret. Of Lee Harvey?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Or Mr. Ekdahl.

Mrs. Murret. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married.

Mr. Jenner. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him bring that in the morning when he comes in?