TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET (continued 2)

Mrs. Murret. The snapshot?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he?

Mrs. Murret. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. It was your impression that he was a research man for what company?

Mrs. Murret. A sick man?

Mr. Jenner. No; a research man.

Mrs. Murret. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his salary was over $1,000 a month.

Mr. Jenner. Which is a substantial amount of money; right?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 better than $1,000.

Mr. Jenner. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very substantial income; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial income; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. We people?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, the Murret family.

Mrs. Murret. My family?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all the time.

Mr. Jenner. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he went to St. Louis U.

Mr. Jenner. St. Louis?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went to Loyola.

Mr. Jenner. Loyola of Chicago?

Mrs. Murret. No; Loyola of New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Murret. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.

Mr. Jenner. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis Cardinals farm teams; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.

Mr. Jenner. He works for the Swift Co. now?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. How nice.

Mrs. Murret. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his travels in connection with his business?

Mrs. Murret. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. That was your information, that she had her boys at Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was that during that summer vacation period?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you then that they were in Covington?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime?

Mrs. Murret. No; she had not.

Mr. Jenner. Is Covington very far away?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. How far away is it?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was getting along with her husband?

Mrs. Murret. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would just stay there while he went to school.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in Covington, La.?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did she do that?

Mrs. Murret. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. When she left Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At her own expense?

Mrs. Murret. So she said.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She kept Lee with her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he at that time around 5 years old?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or maybe a little older?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in his travels; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but that she had to support him; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.

Mr. Jenner. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know anything about Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. But it was your impression that he was previously married and had a son; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know; no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad heart?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very bad heart, I believe she said.

Mr. Jenner. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And they did marry?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. No children were born of that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think she was married to him very long.

Mr. Jenner. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know about the date on that.

Mr. Jenner. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went on.

Mr. Jenner. And you have already told us about that.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce.

Mr. Jenner. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at the time she married Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was a very low-priced residence.

Mr. Jenner. At 1010 Bartholomew?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way you would like them to work out.

Mr. Jenner. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time?

Mrs. Murret. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall?

Mrs. Murret. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was before the assassination?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. She said then that she was selling insurance?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, $5, $10, or whatever it was.

Mr. Jenner. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963?

Mrs. Murret. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, that was over the telephone, I think.

Mr. Jenner. That was a telephone conversation you had with her?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959.

Mrs. Murret. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they let him out of the service, right after that, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; in September of 1959.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and then he said, "Well, this is not for me."

Mr. Jenner. Who said that?

Mrs. Murret. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had saved over $1,000 or $1,400—I don't know the amount—but after he got home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm leaving."

Mr. Jenner. Lee said that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at the house. If he did, I didn't know it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call you?

Mrs. Murret. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the house, you know, this might not have happened.

Mr. Jenner. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by or called?

Mrs. Murret. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you would have tried, anyhow.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more about Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All living in in their home in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the house after school, and things like that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got like that; he was with himself so much.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to time?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of this period, didn't you?

Mrs. Murret. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support the family, or whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. The same as Lee Harvey?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.

Mr. Jenner. Hosiery?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must have been on the way back—I didn't even know she had went to New York, but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.

Mr. Jenner. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as to when she went to New York?

Mrs. Murret. 1952?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was living here—let's see——

Mr. Jenner. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of 1952?

Mrs. Murret. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I might remember.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar to you?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know that one.

Mr. Jenner. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an address where they lived in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party that bought it.

Mr. Jenner. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on the deal.

Mr. Jenner. She reported that to you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she spoke about.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of her.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of her.

Mr. Jenner. Patricia Aarons?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of her.

Mr. Jenner. Herman Conway?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Thomas W. Turner?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of him.

Mr. Jenner. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. What?

Mr. Jenner. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. She got some assistance from her sons, did she?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed anything—John, but I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression that about that time she was becoming increasingly despondent with life?

Mrs. Murret. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.

Mr. Jenner. She adjusted easily?

Mrs. Murret. She knew she had to do something about these things; that she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.

Mr. Jenner. What makes you say that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because her children didn't help her?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think that was while they were living over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or called me—I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.

Mr. Jenner. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas?

Mrs. Murret. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.

Mr. Jenner. For how long?

Mrs. Murret. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just rather stay in the house and read or something.

Mr. Jenner. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children?

Mrs. Murret. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do about it.

We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that?

Mrs. Murret. Because I saw the letter.

Mr. Jenner. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did.

Mr. Jenner. You saw the letter before it was mailed?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at your home, did he?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him?

Mrs. Murret. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out for him.

Mr. Jenner. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. I think so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. That was in your home at 757 French Street?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French Street.

Mr. Jenner. How was that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it to the 700 block.

Mr. Jenner. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. How many days were you looking for an apartment for her?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I would say about a week.

Mr. Jenner. Until she found this place on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. What was Lee doing during that time?

Mrs. Murret. He was going to school.

Mr. Jenner. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard Junior High.

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been in January 1954?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that from this lady who was a friend of hers.

Mr. Jenner. Was that Myrtle Evans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers.

Mr. Jenner. I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania, didn't she?

Mrs. Murret. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St. Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February 1955.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle Evans was managing that apartment where she lived.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that 1954 or 1955?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know—whatever you have down there probably is the right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.

Mr. Jenner. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family home—Myrtle—and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments for tenants.

Mr. Jenner. How long did they stay at your house?

Mrs. Murret. At my house?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, somewhere in there.

Mr. Jenner. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your house into this place on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know which, to be truthful with you.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been about 3 years older; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York, and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my home. It's a school on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure, that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at the school.

Mr. Jenner. Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are referring to now with relation to that school.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me, or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him "Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of that. He didn't say anything to me about that.

Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time.

Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything, so he got in several scrapes like that.

Mr. Jenner. These were things that Mrs. Oswald told you; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Your children were all entered in school, were they?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did they study pretty hard?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well in school, or what was your feeling along that line?

Mrs. Murret. I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school, because I have had children of my own going to school and they always done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school, but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school.

Mr. Jenner. When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York?

Mrs. Murret. No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get him out.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at your place?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to building, delivering messages and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. That was in 1955, would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. When he was here; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they were living in Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him more money so that he could keep his bike another hour.

Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who lives in Beaumont——

Mr. Jenner. Beaumont, Tex.?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs, and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the other children." So that was that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he wear this clothing to school?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing this clothing for him?

Mrs. Murret. No; he never would discuss anything. He was very independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because you do need somebody, sometime you will."

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that a little of this independence might have rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your sister?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family.

Mr. Jenner. In the Oswald family, do you mean?

Mrs. Murret. In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to do all I could to help her.

Mr. Jenner. Would you recognize Lee's handwriting if you saw it?

Mrs. Murret. I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see his handwriting often?

Mrs. Murret. Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School, with his homework.

Mr. Jenner. Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540 before you, do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Murret. Wait till I get my glasses.

Mr. Jenner. All right; take your time.

Mrs. Murret. I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like, something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I couldn't say for sure—I couldn't swear that that was his writing.

Mr. Jenner. You couldn't swear that he wrote this?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Does it look like what you recall his handwriting was?

Mrs. Murret. Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys. You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret. Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police, or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room.

Mrs. Murret. Well, here's one that says that he was—you see, when he stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going, but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field——

Mr. Jenner. Is that Keesler Field at Biloxi?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that, and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. After he defected to Russia?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be stationed over there, you can come over weekends."

Mr. Jenner. Did he say he was going to be stationed there?

Mrs. Murret. At Keesler Field?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he said he was going to be.

Mr. Jenner. And that is over at Biloxi, Miss.?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all. I didn't know he went until after he went.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you that he was in Russia?

Mrs. Murret. That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that was before he defected; right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her $10, she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans, so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by him from letter that he was in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. So she told you that; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. She told me; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in the New Orleans papers?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth, over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it.

Mr. Jenner. There was nothing in the New Orleans papers about it?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think. There might have been.

Mr. Jenner. Well, at least it didn't come to your attention?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think they had anything here about that at all, but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper.

Mr. Jenner. Did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you?

Mrs. Murret. No; she came down here.

Mr. Jenner. To New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you all about it?

Mrs. Murret. She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent?

Mrs. Murret. Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way, but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how it was over there, I guess; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversations with him about it?

Mrs. Murret. After he came back?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's?

Mrs. Murret. No. I didn't know anything other than he was working there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them.

Mr. Jenner. Now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet; no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well, Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed that with us as to why that was, and we never found out.

Mr. Jenner. He never discussed that with you?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was the type of boy who was too good an athlete.

Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I guess he just left. I don't know that though.

Mr. Jenner. You think that's what happened to Lee, do you?

Mrs. Murret. I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't know though.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a competitive person?

Mrs. Murret. Was he what?

Mr. Jenner. Was he competitive?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't learning anything, and it was just a waste of time.

I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him, "You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about. She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything.

Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to school, that he knew all the subjects.

Mr. Jenner. Did your children discuss Lee in your presence?

Mrs. Murret. Did they discuss Lee?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. What did your children think of Lee?

Mrs. Murret. They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him, because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a lot, though. They have always loved him.

Mr. Jenner. Then eventually they went to Texas; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was that in the fall of 1956?

Mrs. Murret. I think so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. They left New Orleans and went to Texas in 1956; right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they left.

Mr. Jenner. Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that they were about to move to Texas?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day—she had a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the place was locked up, and we never did get it back.

Mr. Jenner. This was a portable electric sewing machine?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her clothing or not; but she left.

Mr. Jenner. And where was this she called you from, do you know?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they were over on Exchange Place at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Exchange?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go right over there to get the machine?

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't. When we did go over the place was all locked up.

Mr. Jenner. So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after Robert got out of the service?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live here and work and help support the family.

Mr. Jenner. But he didn't like New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and he wanted to move over there.

Mr. Jenner. He said he wanted to live in Texas where his friends were?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. And so they moved to Texas?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and shortly after that—I forget when—but Robert married, and I didn't even know he was married.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't even know that?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of boy was Robert?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away, I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one another as brothers.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that.

Mrs. Murret. They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from real small children, you would think that they would love one another as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being halfbrothers or stepbrothers.

Mr. Jenner. Except they had two different names, Pic and Oswald; right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him, contributed to that feeling between the two boys?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me, that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father, and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father contribute to him."

Mr. Jenner. Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recall that each regarded the other as his brother; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much as he did Robert. That's just what I think.

Mr. Jenner. How did John and Robert get along?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any girls in this family."

Mr. Jenner. Oh well, that was boy talk, was it not?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; but they did say, "It had better not be a girl."

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become aware that Lee had entered the Marines?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not until he came in that Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. When he wanted to be stationed at Keesler Field?

Mrs. Murret. That's right, that's what he said when he came through on a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have already touched on some information regarding when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the telephone book over there and found her number.

Mr. Jenner. What is your son-in-law's name?

Mrs. Murret. Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I think, or her brother—I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home.

It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left, and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Did he contact you at all?

Mrs. Murret. No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I think, from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. She called you and told you about that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he didn't write you, did he?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard from him; no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The only time he saw you was on that one Saturday?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field.

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in the Marines?

Mrs. Murret. He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office—he has expired since then—and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then the next step was that when he got over to the place—I don't know whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his suitcase—but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that.

Mr. Jenner. You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't admit him on the affidavit?

Mrs. Murret. That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there and converse with him about different things in the service and so forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything like that, though.

Mr. Jenner. Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't seem to have worked much after school.

Mrs. Murret. Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house.

Mr. Jenner. Did your boys work after school when they did go to school?

Mrs. Murret. My boys?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. My boys—let's see. They always went to school, and during vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. That's what I mean.

Mrs. Murret. One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900 worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time, and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed, and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he liked to do.

Mr. Jenner. Who didn't like to do the things he liked to do?

Mrs. Murret. Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's what he liked.

Mr. Jenner. Was he inclined to want to be by himself?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. Was he inclined to want to be by himself?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't stay in there too long, I don't think.

Mr. Jenner. He wasn't in the Sea Scouts too long?

Mrs. Murret. No; he wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a Liberty Hotel here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. There could be.

Mr. Jenner. Or the Hotel Liberty?

Mrs. Murret. There might be; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite had on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was a pretty nice apartment she had there.

Mr. Jenner. On Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and because of that reason rents are pretty high.

Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom, and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom, and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she told me.

Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or something like that, but of course you can't please everybody.

Mr. Jenner. But he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from him when he was in Russia?

Mrs. Murret. One time I heard—it was a postcard, and I think it was the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard, and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene——

Mr. Jenner. That's your son Gene?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more.

When I wrote to Lee—I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point.

Mr. Jenner. You did write a card, but your children tore it up?

Mrs. Murret. Well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know.

Mr. Jenner. So there wasn't any communication between you or any member of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you saw him, when next did you hear about him?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and then they went back to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. You mean Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they were over here after that.

Mr. Jenner. Did she live in New Orleans for a while then?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. She just came for a visit?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she stay with you?

Mrs. Murret. She stayed with me; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you had discussions during that time about his going to Russia?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not too much.

Mr. Jenner. What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your impression?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to her over the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. You mean she tried to reach him by telephone?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk. He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her after she left here. She said she was going to get lost.

Mr. Jenner. She said that to you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. She said nobody was going to know where she was going.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said, "Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he said, "Yes."

I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now," and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married, and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said, "Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out."

Mr. Jenner. This was in May or April 1963; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Just about a year ago?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember whether it was May or April, which month it was.

Mrs. Murret. It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week after Easter.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, he arrived at your home; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly dressed.

Mr. Jenner. How was he dressed?

Mrs. Murret. He just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of pants.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have a suit coat on?

Mrs. Murret. A suit coat?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No, he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Was your husband home?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was anybody other than you home?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. What luggage did he have when he arrived at your home?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at your house.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only carrying just a little handbag, they call it.

Mr. Jenner. What color was it?

Mrs. Murret. Possibly it was brown.

Mr. Jenner. Brown?

Mrs. Murret. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of material was it?

Mrs. Murret. What the handbag was made of?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. I think it was just cloth.

Mr. Jenner. A cloth bag?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have it in just one hand?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't too large, then?

Mrs. Murret. No; it was small.

Mr. Jenner. The witness indicates about 14 inches.

Mrs. Murret. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put their clothes in, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of that?

Mrs. Murret. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things over at the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Murret. He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that?

Mrs. Murret. How do I know that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until he found an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That evening?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In your automobile?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other packages; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you home when they came back from the bus station?

Mrs. Murret. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage, if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see anything in the garage eventually?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it.

Mr. Jenner. Over the duffelbag?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How many duffelbags were there?

Mrs. Murret. Quite a few, I think.

Mr. Jenner. More than two duffelbags?

Mrs. Murret. I could be wrong, but I think there were more.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and that there could have been more than two?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus station though.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any long packages with him?

Mrs. Murret. I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long packages?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. I didn't see any.

Mr. Jenner. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes that a person would pack things in?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I guess there were clothes in those.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any long flat package with him?

Mrs. Murret. I didn't see any.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan wrapping paper?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of my business.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any package that stood up on end at all?

Mrs. Murret. I didn't see any like that; no.

Mr. Jenner. Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and hard?

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw.

Mr. Jenner. Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear in cold weather.

Mr. Jenner. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer and sickle or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him.

Mr. Jenner. You say he had no suit coat?

Mrs. Murret. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever get them out?

Mrs. Murret. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking—we were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives." He said, "You are the only one I know."

Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday. Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it, and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job—I don't know where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone to letter.

Mr. Jenner. To letter?

Mrs. Murret. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this job.

First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know how to do that."

So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her—he had a map; he always carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always take this map and mark the route out himself.

So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever went back to see her.

So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"

Mr. Jenner. He was quite happy that he had gotten work?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it."

I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression when you were talking along these lines that he really believed he was that smart?

Mrs. Murret. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You don't think he was spoofing you?

Mrs. Murret. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We didn't even know when he left this job.

Mr. Jenner. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, did he read while he was home at night?

Mrs. Murret. Did he read?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't read any books?

Mrs. Murret. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his life in Russia, and how he felt about it?

Mrs. Murret. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was over there.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. We didn't talk about it too much.

Mr. Jenner. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.