Morning Session (continued 2)
Reading edition
MR. DODD: Well, I want to ask you this. Then you knew all about it, and I understood you to say that you did anyway, on your direct examination. You knew about the deportation of the Jews, and you were doing your part to see that the SD carried it out. That is the only point I am trying to make with you, and I assume that you agree.
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, of course I knew that a few trains had been loaded with Jews in Vienna. They were then taken to Poland and unloaded. No preparations whatsoever had been made, and the Jews were in serious difficulties. I opposed this state of affairs; and when Bürckel complained, I told Himmler, “If such actions take place, then they ought to be carried out by the SD,” because I was under the impression that then better preparations would be made. When I say that today it sounds very tragic and bitter, but I thought that at least emergency quarters and so on would be provided somewhere. Apart from that I knew from 9 November 1938 how these things were carried out. The Party forged ahead, and then the State had to take over these matters and carry them out.
MR. DODD: Yes. At any event, you knew that Kaltenbrunner at that time was deporting, or had charge of the transporting of the Jews out of Austria.
SEYSS-INQUART: I do not recall Kaltenbrunner in this connection. I think that was done by the Party alone. I believe Kaltenbrunner had no part in it.
MR. DODD: Didn’t you say the SD, and wasn’t that under Kaltenbrunner in Austria, at that time?
SEYSS-INQUART: I said that it ought to do it, but these transports were not run by Kaltenbrunner, Globocznik ran them.
MR. DODD: Well, they were under Kaltenbrunner, were they not? He was the head of the whole police system in Austria at that time.
SEYSS-INQUART: Well, he was rather the commander of the Security Police; and how much influence he had there I could not say, but I think it was very little.
MR. DODD: You found out since you have been sitting here that he had quite a lot, didn’t you? You now know that he had a lot to do with it.
SEYSS-INQUART: No.
MR. DODD: You mean to say you haven’t heard here that Kaltenbrunner had something to do with the removal of the Jews?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I shall leave that to Kaltenbrunner. From my own observations I do not know it.
MR. DODD: Well, I am not going to labor it, but that isn’t what I asked you. I asked you if you haven’t heard in this courtroom that Kaltenbrunner had much to do with the removal of the Jews.
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.
MR. DODD: Certainly. You relate that back to your letter, don’t you? And don’t you now know that he had something to do with the removal of Jews at the time you wrote the letter?
SEYSS-INQUART: In my opinion, Kaltenbrunner had nothing at all to do with the evacuation of Jews as mentioned here, because that was a wild action carried out by the Party or Gauleiter Globocznik.
MR. DODD: Do you remember when you got the authority, through Lammers, for the confiscation of property that you asked for in Austria?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.
MR. DODD: Have you seen these documents? They are new; your letter to Lammers, his reply back to you, and the order which was issued at your request. Those are three documents.
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.
MR. DODD: Your letter to Lammers is dated 23 October 1938, and it is 3448-PS, which becomes Exhibit USA-886. And Lammers’ reply to you is dated 24 October 1938 and it is 3447-PS, which becomes Exhibit USA-887. The order itself is 3450-PS, which becomes Exhibit USA-888.
That was a confiscation of the property of the Jews in Austria, was it not, which you requested?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes. I testified yesterday, or the day before, that I co-operated in this matter by issuing decrees.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we adjourn now?
MR. DODD: I can finish in 5 minutes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, go on, then.
MR. DODD: I would like to finish up, and I think I can do it.
Defendant, when did you first learn about the many Austrians who were dying in the concentration camps after the Anschluss?
SEYSS-INQUART: About the many Austrians who died in concentration camps? I really learned about that in this courtroom, but about the numerous Austrians who were in concentration camps, perhaps in the course of 1943-44. In 1938-39 I knew that some political opponents were in concentration camps, but they were gradually being released again, or at least some of them.
MR. DODD: Didn’t you know that they were being killed in Buchenwald as early as 1939? Didn’t you know some of the people, and know about their deaths? Now think a minute before you answer this. Didn’t you know about the death in Buchenwald of people who had been your political opponents?
SEYSS-INQUART: I do not remember, Mr. Prosecutor.
MR. DODD: You never heard a word about it?
SEYSS-INQUART: I do not mean to say that at all. If you give me a name, then I shall tell you at once what the situation is.
MR. DODD: I know if I tell you the name you will tell me you heard it, I suppose. However, I am asking you first if you didn’t in fact know that some of them were dying in these camps. That is all I want to know. It was pretty common knowledge in Austria, was it not?
SEYSS-INQUART: I shall most certainly admit that it is possible that I was told that one or another died in the camp even as early as 1938 or 1939.
MR. DODD: Well, you still continued to go on with the Nazis, although at least you knew that vast numbers of your fellow countrymen were being thrown into concentration camps. Didn’t that make any difference to you? Whatever you thought before the Anschluss, you certainly knew what they were doing after it.
SEYSS-INQUART: That I knew that large numbers were dying is out of the question. That there were a few, one or another, who died would not have affected me particularly because, between 1934 and 1938, at least as many National Socialists had died in the concentration camps of Dr. Dollfuss and the Fatherland Front, that is to say, of the Austrian State.
MR. DODD: Well now, wouldn’t you agree with me that conditions were very bad in Austria after the Nazis took over and they went from bad to worse and you knew it and everybody else in Austria knew it? Or do you want to take the position that they improved? I would just like to know what your opinion is.
SEYSS-INQUART: I will tell you quite frankly. Of course, if you listen today to the leaders of the political opposition, then it was terrible. However, if you saw the people up to 1939, then you could see that they had a new lease on life, because unemployment disappeared and there was quite a different spirit. But then the war altered all that.
MR. DODD: One last question, if you can answer it for me briefly.
Do I understand you to accept responsibility for whatever went on in Poland, whatever is established as having gone on in Poland? That is, joint responsibility with Frank? Do you accept that as his deputy?
SEYSS-INQUART: First of all, that can only apply to the time when I was there and acted as deputy.
MR. DODD: Of course. I certainly don’t mean after you left there. I am only talking about the time that you were there.
SEYSS-INQUART: Well, then, as deputy, only where I acted as deputy, or where crimes came to my knowledge without my taking measures against them.
MR. DODD: I just want to read into the record one sentence from a document that has already been offered in evidence, Mr. President. It is Document 2233-PS; and from that document, Page 1, Paragraph 4, I would like to read this, because part of it was read by the Defense, but this part was left out. It is under the small Arabic Figure 3:
“The necessary police and other measures arising therefrom will be under the immediate direction of the Chief of the Security Police; every arbitrary action is to be strictly avoided.”
This had to do, by the way, with the “AB Action,” concerning which this witness has testified.
The records show that you, indeed, Mr. Defendant, were present at the time that the Defendant Frank discussed this AB Action and made this statement which I have just read into the record. Certainly you don’t deny responsibility for whatever was done under the AB Action, do you? Because you did know about that.
SEYSS-INQUART: Neither in connection with the AB case nor in any other case did I deny anything. I spoke especially about the AB Action.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, Document 2233-PS, which is USSR-223, is now available in the French. It is already in evidence and has been accepted by the Tribunal, but a French copy was not available at the time it was offered. It has now been completely translated into the French, and I offer it to the Tribunal for assistance in the French.
I have concluded my examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you said that the document of 11 November 1937, 3369-PS, was a new document. Did you give it a number?
MR. DODD: Just a moment, Mr. President. I will check that. I meant to offer it, and I fear that I did omit to do so. That would become USA-889. It was a new document, and I did intend to offer it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn, and we will reconvene at 10 minutes past 2.