Afternoon Session (continued 2)
Reading edition
THE PRESIDENT: It is a matter which would come under the competence of the military authorities; and he does not know about it. That is what he said.
WIMMER: All the matters of the Ministry for National Defense fell within the jurisdiction of the military commander, for it is perfectly clear that everything of a military nature which took place or was directed in the Netherlands there was directed by this Ministry, and it is clear that the commander, the German military representative of the Reich, was competent in this sphere.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have a document which proves that the man’s dismissal was done by Seyss-Inquart, I suppose you can put it to him.
M. DEBENEST: I wanted simply to demonstrate that the answer he gave was inexact, merely by reading four lines of the document.
THE PRESIDENT: As I said, if you have a document which proves that the man’s dismissal was by Seyss-Inquart, you can put it to him.
M. DEBENEST: That is what I intended to do, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do it; put it to him, then.
M. DEBENEST: I do not have the original in German. I handed it in yesterday evening to the Secretary of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Read it to him, M. Debenest. Read it to him.
M. DEBENEST: That is what I am going to do, Mr. President.
[Turning to the witness.] Here is what Seyss-Inquart wrote:
“One of the secretaries general tried to appeal to the authority of Winkelmann”—Winkelmann was the military chief—“concerning the question of the continuation of work in armament factories for the Armed Forces, but this official....”
WIMMER: I did not understand that. Will you please read the last two sentences once more?
M. DEBENEST: “....concerning the matter of the continuation of armament factories for the Armed Forces. But this official was immediately dismissed.”
WIMMER: But that does not say that the Reich Commissioner dismissed this official.
M. DEBENEST: Certainly it is not said that the Reich Commissioner did it; but it is none the less clear in this report that the Reich Commissioner indicates here that when an official, no matter who he may be, does not obey the orders which are given to him, he is dismissed from his office and he quotes this case as an example.
WIMMER: But here it is a question of the military branch. What I have said before deals exclusively with the civilian sector branch, the Reich Commissioner’s branch. It is perfectly clear and possible that in a report to Hitler the Reich Commissioner should speak about other things also, because he was the guardian of the interests of the Reich. And he reported about other things to his superior, besides those which were exclusively within his sphere of activity. Nor do I know whether by these officials or these workers, for example, the secretary general is meant, the Secretary General for National Defense.
M. DEBENEST: Very well. We will leave this question.
Did you not require that the Secretary General for Education should place the Kammerlingh Onnes laboratories in Leyden at the disposal of the German authorities for research on atomic energy?
WIMMER: But only in the Netherlands; not in Germany.
M. DEBENEST: But if it was not for Germany, the Secretary General for Education had perfect freedom to decide for himself; you did not have to intervene, did you?
WIMMER: No. That was a German measure which had been demanded by the Reich and which was now carried out in such a manner that all the materials, machinery, and so on, remained in the Netherlands, and German scientists were to have the opportunity to carry out their researches there. Moreover I do not believe that that had anything to do with atomic matters. Who said that?
M. DEBENEST: You claim that important public libraries and private libraries were not confiscated or transported to the Reich? You said so just now, is that not a fact?
WIMMER: Just now? I did not talk about libraries at all just now.
M. DEBENEST: But just now when Seyss-Inquart’s defense counsel was questioning you, you certainly said, unless I misunderstood you, that no libraries had been transported to the Reich which came from the Netherlands.
WIMMER: I did not say that. Will you please show me that in the transcript?
M. DEBENEST: Then it is doubtless a mistake. Were not the professors of the University of Amsterdam threatened with the death penalty if they handed in their resignations, and did you not threaten them yourself?
WIMMER: I neither expressed such a threat, nor do I know of any such threat. I consider it quite impossible that anybody could have uttered such a threat.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.