Afternoon Session (continued 2)
Reading edition
MR. DODD: How could you fail to meet him? You met regularly in 1940 with this Reich Defense Council. We have some documents here, and I will be glad to show them to you, showing exactly what you said before that council.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, as I said, he probably kept the minutes of the meetings.
MR. DODD: Well surely, then, you saw him certainly on some occasions, between 1940, the date of these files, and 1942, the date of the SS reports on the exterminations. He apparently was with you for 2 years before the first report that we have, which is dated 1942, and he was 1 of 20 on your council.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe I must describe the exact composition of this Reich Defense Council. There were the leading commanding generals of the Army and the Luftwaffe; there were various Gauleiter; there were the people mentioned here; there was Dr. Putt, the representative of the Economic Management Staff and all the others who are listed here. In this large circle of people, whom I had to welcome, there was an official who kept the minutes and who was one of many officials in my office. These meetings, as you have probably ascertained, took place very infrequently. Dr. Fischer did not report to me currently, nor did he submit to me the minutes of these sessions; the Regierungspräsident reported to me.
MR. DODD: Do you think that Heinrich Himmler or Reinhard Heydrich were sending these reports to inferior people around Germany in these Gaue about the exterminations in the East?
VON SCHIRACH: If these reports had been meant for me, they would have been sent to me directly. Moreover, I said today that I do not dispute having been informed of the shooting of Jews in the East, but at a later period. I mentioned that in connection with the war. However, the reports themselves were not in my hands. If these reports had been before me, they would have had a certain note, which I would recognize immediately.
MR. DODD: Well, let’s see. Of course they are addressed to you, to the attention of Fischer.
But I am going to move on a little bit. Now I am going to tell you that you got weekly reports. You haven’t seen these. What do you say to that?
VON SCHIRACH: Weekly reports?
MR. DODD: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: I received innumerable weekly reports from every possible office.
MR. DODD: No, I am talking about one kind of report. I am talking about the reports from Heydrich and Himmler.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know what you mean.
MR. DODD: Well, you had better take a look (Document 3943-PS). We have 55 of them, for 55 weeks. They are all here, and they run consecutively, and Dr. Fischer is not involved in these. And each one bears the stamp of your office having received it on it, and the date that it was received.
They tell, by the way—and you can look at them—what was happening to the Jews in the East.
VON SCHIRACH: All these probably—I cannot look at them all just now. These reports went from the Chief of the Security Police to the Office of the Reich Defense Commissioner. They were not, as I can tell from the first document, initialed by myself, but bear the initials of the Regierungspräsident. I did not receive these reports; otherwise my initial would have to be there.
MR. DODD: Dr. Dellbrügge was the man who received them, according to the note, and he was your chief assistant. Incidentally, I think we ought to make this clear to the Tribunal, both of your chief assistants were SS Brigadeführer, were they not?
VON SCHIRACH: I should in any case have stated that Dr. Dellbrügge was one of Himmler’s confidants; but I believe...
MR. DODD: And he was your chief assistant, that is the point I am making. And so was your other chief assistant, also an SS Brigadeführer.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe that this statement proves the opposite of what you want to prove against me.
MR. DODD: Well, I am going to go on with these weekly reports in a minute, but there is one thing I do want to ask you.
Were you pretty friendly with Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: I knew Heydrich, and while he was Reich Protector in Prague he extended an invitation to me as President of the Southeastern Europe Society to hold a meeting there which I accepted. However, I did not have close personal contact with Heydrich.
MR. DODD: Did you think he was a good public servant at the time that he was terrorizing Czechoslovakia?
VON SCHIRACH: I had the impression that Heydrich, as he said himself during my stay in Prague, wanted to carry out a policy of conciliation, especially in regard to Czech workers. I did not see in him an exponent of a policy of terror. Of course, I have no practical knowledge of the incidents which took place in Czechoslovakia. I made only this one visit, or possibly one further visit.
MR. DODD: You sent a telegram to “Dear Martin Bormann” when Heydrich was assassinated; do you remember that—the man who was, I understand, not in your good standing in 1942? Do you remember when Heydrich was assassinated by some Czech patriots in Prague?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Do you remember what you did when you heard about it?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not remember exactly.
MR. DODD: Perhaps if I read you this telegram you will remember it.
“To Reichsleiter Bormann, Berlin, Party Chancellery; Express. Urgent. Immediate attention.
“Dear Martin Bormann:
“I request that the following be submitted to the Führer.
“Knowing the Czech population and its attitude in Vienna as well as in the Protectorate, I would draw your attention to the following:
“The enemy powers and the British cliques around Beneš have for a long time felt bitter about the co-operation generally found among the Czech workers and their contribution to the German war economy. They are seeking for a means to play off the Czech population and the Reich against each other. The attack on Heydrich was undoubtedly planned in London. The British arms of the assailant suggest parachuted agents. London hopes by means of this murder to induce the Reich to take extreme measures with the aim of bringing about a resistance movement among Czech workers. In order to prevent the world from thinking that the population of the Protectorate is in opposition to Hitler, these acts must immediately be branded as of British authorship. A sudden and violent air attack on a British cultural town would be most effective and the world would have learned of this through the headline ‘Revenge for Heydrich.’ That alone should induce Churchill to desist immediately from the procedure begun in Prague of stirring up revolt. The Reich replies to the attack at Prague by a counterattack on world public opinion.
“It is suggested that the following information be given the press tomorrow regarding the attempt on Heydrich’s life.”
And then you go on to say that it was the work of British agents and that it originated in Britain. You sign it, “Heil Hitler, Dein Schirach.”
Do you remember sending that telegram to Bormann?
VON SCHIRACH: I have just been listening to the English translation. I should like to see the German original, please.
MR. DODD: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you read, I thought, a British “coastal” town, did you not?
MR. DODD: No, “cultural” I meant to say, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that is what I have got.
MR. DODD: Yes, it is “cultural.”
Incidentally, I call your attention, Mr. Witness, to the word “cultural.” You have expressed such a great interest in culture.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it be all right to break off now, or do you want to go on?
MR. DODD: I had hoped I could finish. I won’t be many minutes, but I do have one or two rather important documents that I would like to put to the witness.
Mr. President, if we recess, may I ask that the witness not be talked to by his counsel overnight? I think it is only fair, when a witness is under cross-examination, that he not have conversations with his counsel.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say to this document...
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I should like to have this question clarified as to whether as defense counsel I am entitled to talk with my client or not. Mr. Dodd forbade me to talk to my client some time ago; and, of course, I acquiesced. But, if I am told that I must not speak to my client until the end of the cross-examination and the cross-examination is to be continued on Monday, that means that I cannot speak with my client tomorrow or the day after. But, in order to carry on his defense, I must have an opportunity of discussing with my client all the points raised here today.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will withdraw my request. I really forgot we were going over until Monday. I do think it is the ordinary rule, but I do think it might present some difficulty for the counsel here.
I want to be fair with the Tribunal. During the recess Dr. Sauter approached the witness stand and I did tell him then that I did not think he should talk to him during the recess while he was under cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is the British rule, but I think in the circumstances we had better let Dr. Sauter...
MR. DODD: I quite agree. I was thinking we would go on tomorrow, but I do not want to interfere with his consultation over the weekend.