THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS AND THE WORLD.

BY WILLIAM A. MORTON. (Copyright by the Author.)

"Let us dream no dreams and tell no lies, but go on our way, wherever it may lead us, with our eyes open and our heads erect. If death ends all, we cannot meet it better. If not, let us enter, whatever be the next scene, like honest men, with no sophistry in our mouths and no masks on our faces."—Sir James F. Stephen.

I.—THE GODHEAD.

The World:—We understand, Latter-day Saints, that you are delighted when an opportunity presents itself which enables you to explain to the world the faith you believe in?

Latter-day Saints:—That is true. We are always ready to give, to every one that asks of us, a reason for the hope that is within us; for, like the Apostle Paul, "we are not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth."

The World:—You testify most positively that you know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God; that the Church of which you are members was established by Divine revelation. You claim that it is the only Church on earth which teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fulness?

Latter-day Saints:—That is our position exactly. We testify that God the Father and Jesus Christ His Son appeared to the boy, Joseph Smith, in the year 1820. We further testify that the angel which John the Revelator prophesied would "fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water;" (Revelation 14: 6-7) came to Joseph Smith, and delivered to him a record containing the fulness of the Gospel of the Son of God. We claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, indeed, the true Church of Christ; that it was established and named by Him; that it has the same officers, holding the same Divine authority, as the primitive Church, namely, "Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc." (Eph. 4: 11.) We profess to be teaching the very same Gospel that was taught by Christ and His Apostles. We contend that there is but one true Gospel. Jesus said, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt. 7: 14.) Paul taught: "There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph. 4: 4, 5.) He further said: "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1: 8.)

The World:—Well, we have decided to follow the admonition of the Apostle Paul—"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (I. Thes. 5: 21)—and if you have no objection, we would like to put you on trial and judge you, according to the law and the testimony, that we may learn whether the doctrines which you teach are of God or whether you speak of yourselves.

Latter-day Saints:—We are quite willing to be put on trial, and to be judged as you have proposed, according to the law and the testimony; for, as the Prophet Isaiah said, if we speak not according to the law and the testimony there is no light in us. (Isaiah 8: 20.) We have many witnesses who are ready and willing to testify in our behalf, men whose testimony cannot be questioned. They are not men who have followed cunningly devised fables, but who were eye-witnesses of the things of which they will speak. If it please the court, we are ready; let the trial begin.

The World:—The first offence with which you are charged is that of teaching that the Godhead is composed of three separate and physically distinct Persons. This, as you must know, is contrary to the teaching of all the churches, especially the Church of England. That church teaches that the Godhead is composed of three Persons, namely, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that these three are one in substance, equal in power and glory. Here is an extract from the Book of Common Prayer: "And the Catholick Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son: and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. * * * The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals: but one eternal. * * * So the Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods: but one God." (Book of Common Prayer, pp. 21, 22.)

Latter-day Saints:—We are aware that that is the teaching of the Church of England, but it is not in harmony with the teaching of Christ and His disciples. We have a witness named John who was intimately acquainted with the Son of God, whom we consider a most competent authority to speak on this matter. He is ready to be examined.

The World:—We will be pleased to hear his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN.

The World:—What is your name?

John:—My name is John, sometimes called the Baptist.

The World:—We understand that you are a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ?

John:—I am.

The World:—Were you personally acquainted with the Messiah?

John:—I was. I am His cousin. I was associated with Him during His ministry.

The World:—Is it true that you were sent before His face to prepare His way?

John:—It is. The Lord sent an angel to my father, as he prayed in the temple in Jerusalem, who promised him a son who would go before the face of the Lord and make His paths straight. I am that son.

The World:—Were you called of God to do that work?

John:—I was. When the angel appeared to my father, he said unto him, "Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. * * * And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." I also cite to you the testimony of John as recorded in his Gospel, which reads as follows: "There was a man sent from God whose name was John." (John 1: 6.)

The World:—What was the nature of your mission?

John:—I was sent to preach repentance and water baptism. I preached in the wilderness of Judaea, saying unto the people, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3: 1, 2.)

The World:—Were you able to bring many people unto repentance?

John:—Yes, a great many. Mark has made the following record concerning my missionary labors: "And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1: 5.)

The World:—Have you ever heard the voice of God?

John:—I have, on several occasions.

The World:—Mention one of them.

John:—He spoke to me when I did not know that Jesus, my cousin, was His Only Begotten Son. He said to me, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (John 1: 33, 34.)

The World:—Did you baptize Jesus Christ?

John:—I did.

The World:—What took place at His baptism?

John:—That which is recorded in Matthew 3: 16-17: "Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

The World:—Then, John, according to your testimony, the three Personages who constitute the Godhead are not one in substance, but are separate and distinct?

John:—They are certainly separate and distinct Personages. When Jesus came up out of the water, after His baptism, and while He stood on the bank of the river, the Spirit of God descended like a dove and lighted upon Him, and at the same time the voice of the Father was heard from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." These things I both saw and heard: I saw Jesus on the bank of the river; I saw the Spirit of God descend from heaven like a dove and rest upon Christ; I heard the voice of God out of heaven bear testimony that Jesus was His beloved Son.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):—The testimony of the witness John is certainly very clear and convincing. Have you any other witnesses to prove that the Godhead consists of three separate Persons?

Latter-day Saints:—We have several. Here is the Apostle Peter.

The World:—We will listen to his testimony.

PETER'S EVIDENCE.

The World:—Your name is Simon Peter?

Peter:—It is.

The World:—Are you also one of Christ's disciples?

Peter:—I am one of His Apostles.

The World:—Prior to your call to the ministry what was your occupation?

Peter:—I was a fisherman.

The World:—How did you receive your call to the ministry?

Peter:—I was called by Christ Himself.

The World:—Is there a record of your ordination?

Peter:—There is. You will find it recorded in the Gospel according to Saint Mark, as follows: "And lie ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach." (Mark 3: 14.) I am one of the Twelve.

The World:—Do you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Ghost are three Persons in one substance?

Peter:—I do not.

The World:—Can you furnish evidence that they are separate Personages?

Peter:—I can.

The World:—We will listen to your evidence.

Peter:—On one occasion Jesus took James and John and me up into a high mountain apart by ourselves, and there He was transfigured before us. His face shone as the sun and His raiment became as white as snow. We beheld two heavenly messengers come to Jesus and talk with Him. They were Moses and Elias. They spoke to Him of His death which He should accomplish at Jerusalem. We were very much astonished at the things which we saw, and as soon as Moses and Elias had departed I went to Jesus and said to Him, "Master, it is good for us to be here: let us make three tabernacles: one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." (Luke 9: 33.) While I was speaking a cloud came and overshadowed us, and there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." (Luke 9: 34, 35.)

The World:—Was there a record made of what took place on the occasion of which you speak?

Peter:—There was. It is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. (Matthew 17; Mark 9; Luke 9.) I also made a record of it in my second general epistle, as follows: "For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (II. Peter 1: 17, 18.) Jesus, in speaking to us on one occasion, said: "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." (John 16: 28.) Now, surely you would not have me interpret Jesus' saying as meaning that He had come from Himself and was going to return to Himself? I was with the Savior during that awful night in the Garden of Gethsemane when in the anguish of His soul He prayed, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." (Mark 14: 36.) I did not understand Jesus on that occasion to be praying to Himself.

The World:—The witness is excused.

The Latter-day Saints:—Here are James and John, who will corroborate the testimony of Peter.

The World:—James, you have heard the testimony of the Apostle Peter, what have you to say concerning it?

James:—I corroborate it in every particular. I was also on the mount and heard the voice of God bear testimony that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son.

The World:—The witness is excused.

The World:—John, you have listened to the testimony of your fellow Apostles, what have you to say concerning it?

John:—It gives me pleasure to corroborate it. They have spoken the truth, and nothing but the truth. I also heard the voice of the Father saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him."

The World:—That is all. (To the Latter-day Saints):—Have you any more witnesses?

The Latter-day Saints:—We have one more, a man who laid down his life for the truth's sake; his name is Stephen.

Stephen's testimony.

The World:—What is your name?

Stephen:—My name is Stephen.

The World:—What position did you hold in the Christian Church?

Stephen:—I was one of the seven men who were set apart by the Apostles to look after the temporal needs of the widows in the church. (Acts 6.)

The World:—Did you also proclaim publicly the Gospel, and bear testimony to the divinity of Jesus?

Stephen:—I did.

The World:—How was your testimony received by the people?

Stephen:—They denounced me as a blasphemer. On one occasion when I was preaching to them they gnashed on me with their teeth. (Acts 7: 54.)

The World:—What happened at that time?

Stephen:—The Lord filled me with the Holy Ghost and opened the heavens to me.

The World:—What did you behold when the heavens were opened?

Stephen:—I beheld God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7: 55.)

The World:—You say that you saw God, and Jesus standing on His right hand. Then, God and Jesus must be two separate Beings?

Stephen:—Certainly. Jesus was not standing at His own right hand.

The World:—You bore testimony to what you saw?

Stephen:—I did.

The World:—How did the people receive your testimony?

Stephen:—It cost me my life. They stoned me to death. (Acts 7: 59, 60.)

The World:—That is all.

Latter-day Saints:—It is not necessary to call any more witnesses. We have proved, most conclusively, that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct Personages. John proved that, when he testified that he saw Jesus standing on the bank of the Jordan; then he beheld the Spirit of God descend from heaven like a dove and rest upon the Messiah, and at the same time he heard the voice of God testify that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son. Peter testified that when James and John and himself were on the mount with Jesus they heard the voice of God testify that Jesus was His Beloved Son. James and John corroborated his testimony. Stephen testified that he, being filled with the Holy Ghost, had the heavens opened to him, and he saw God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of His Father.

The World:—The evidence which you have produced is, indeed, incontrovertible. It is, to be sure, contrary to the teachings which we have received in the churches and from our fathers. But we now call to mind the words of the Prophet Jeremiah, "O Lord, my strength and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." (Jeremiah 16: 19.)

II.—THE PERSONALITY OF GOD.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):—It is true, then, as we have been told, that you believe and teach that God the Father is a personal Being, possessing a definite form, with bodily parts and spiritual passions?

Latter-day Saints:—Such is our belief and teaching.

The World:—This also is contrary to the teachings of almost every church in Christendom. The Church of England, in the first of the "Articles of Religion," published in its Prayer Book, says: "There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts or passions; of infinite power, wisdom and goodness."

Latter-day Saints:—We believe in the God of the Bible, in the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob; the God of all the holy Prophets, and the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We have witnesses whose testimonies cannot be impeached. They are men who can testify from actual experience, men who saw God, and who conversed with Him face to face, and whose testimonies should, therefore, be worthy of all acceptation.

The World:—We will be pleased to listen to your witnesses. Let the first witness be called.

Latter-day Saints:—The first witness who will testify in our behalf is Abraham, "the father of the faithful and the friend of God."

Abraham's testimony.

The World:—What is your name?

Abraham:—My name is Abraham. I was at first called Abram, but the Lord changed my name to Abraham. (Genesis 17: 5.)

The World:—Have you ever had a revelation from God?

Abraham:—I have had many.

The World:—Relate one.

Abraham:—When my wife and I were residing with my parents in Haran the Lord spoke to me, saying, "Abram, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew then: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing; and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 12: 1-3.)

The World:—You were, of course, obedient to the Lord?

Abraham:—I was. I took my wife, Lot, my brother's son, and all those who believed what the Lord had said to me, and, with our substance, we set out for the land of Canaan. While we were camped in the plain of Moreh the Lord appeared unto me and said, "Unto thy seed will I give this land." (Genesis 12: 7).

The World:—Were you visited by the Lord on any other occasion?

Abraham:—I was. I was ninety-nine years old at the time. We were living in the plains of Mamre. The Lord appeared to me there and said, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly. * * * As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. * * * And I will make thee exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee." (Genesis 17: 1-6.) I am testifying of things which I have seen with my own eyes; I saw the Lord and talked with Him face to face, as one man talks with another.

The World:—We have no further questions to ask the witness.

Latter-day Saints:—We have another witness who is prepared to give as strong and as irrefutable evidence as the previous one. His name is Moses.

The World:—We will listen to his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF MOSES.

The World:—Your name is Moses?

Moses:—It is.

The World:—Where were you born?

Moses:—I was born in Egypt, of Hebrew parents.

The World:—It is true that at the time of your birth Pharaoh made a decree that all the male children of the Hebrews were to be thrown into the river Nile?

Moses:—It is.

The World:—How did you escape the fate of the others?

Moses:—My mother made a little ark of bulrushes, daubed it with slime and pitch, and placing me in it she took it down and left it on the flags by the river's brink. In a short time Pharaoh's daughter came down to the river. Seeing the ark, she requested her maid to fetch it. On removing the cover, she beheld me in tears. Her heart was touched, and she decided to keep me as her own child. My sister Miriam, who was in hiding near by, came forward and proffered to get a nurse for the baby. The king's daughter gave her permission to do so, so she went and brought my mother. When my mother arrived, Pharaoh's daughter said to her, "Take this child away and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages." (Exodus 2: 9.) So my mother had the pleasure of raising her own child, and was well paid for doing so. When I was grown I was taken to the court of Pharaoh, and adopted by his daughter. I was treated as though I were her own son and was taught in all the learning of the Egyptians.

The World:—You did not take very well to Egyptian court life?

Moses:—I did not; I would much rather have been with my own people. I finally ran away from Pharaoh and went to Midian, where I fell in love with and married Zipporah, a daughter of Jethro, a priest of Midian. (Exodus 2: 21.)

The World:—What occupation did you follow?

Moses:—I was a sheep-herder; I tended the flocks of my father-in-law.

The World:—We have been told that on one occasion while you were herding the sheep you had a heavenly manifestation; is the report true?

Moses:—It is. While I was tending the sheep one day I beheld a burning bush. I went over to see the strange sight, and as I approached the bush God called unto me out of the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses." And I said, "Here am I." And He said, "Draw not nigh hither; put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3: 4-6.) On hearing that, I hid my face; for I was afraid to look upon God. Then the Lord said unto me, "I have surely seen the afflictions of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows. * * * Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt and I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt. * * * unto a land flowing with milk and honey." (Exodus 3.)

The World:—Did you do as the Lord commanded you?

Moses:—I did, and the Lord, in His infinite mercy, and by many signs and wonders, brought the children of Israel up out of Egypt into their own land.

The World:—Have you ever seen God?

Moses:—I have. On one occasion I talked with Him face to face. I was in the tabernacle at the time. A cloudy pillar descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with me. And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshiped, every man in his tent door. And the Lord spake unto me face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. (Exodus 33: 9-12.) Later He hid me in the cleft of a rock, and as He passed by, in His glory, I beheld His back parts. (Exodus 33: 22-23.)

The World:—Did any of your associates ever see God?

Moses:—Yes, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel and myself saw Him on one occasion. (Exodus 24: 9, 10.)

The World:—Is it true that you spent forty days and forty nights with the Lord on Mount Sinai?

Moses:—It is. It was on that occasion that He gave me two tables of stone on which He had written with His own finger the ten commandments for the children of Israel.

The World:—Moses, we recognize you as one who is fully competent to speak on this important matter. You have seen the Lord a number of times; you have talked with Him face to face; you have been with Him for forty days and forty nights at one time; now, we would like you to describe to us, just as plainly as you can, the true and the living God.

Moses:—I tell you in plainness and in all truth, that God is just like a perfect man. If you could see God today you would see Him just as Abraham saw Him, just as I saw Him, in the form of man, for man was made in the image of God. (Genesis 1: 27.)

The World:—Thank you; that is all.

Latter-day Saints (to the World):—Surely the testimony of these two witnesses ought to be enough to convince you that the God whom we worship—a God with body, parts and passions—is, indeed, the true God, the God of the Bible. But these are not all our witnesses. We have others, whose testimony we desire you to hear.

The World:—Let them come forward.

Latter-day Saints:—Thomas, the World desires to hear your testimony.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS.

The World:—Were you acquainted with the Lord Jesus Christ when He was on the earth?

Thomas:—I was.

The World:—What position did you hold in the Church of Christ?

Thomas:—I was an Apostle.

The World:—Did you see the Savior after His resurrection?

Thomas:—I did. I at first considered the news too good to be true. When the other Apostles told me that they had seen the risen Lord, I said, "Except I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."

The World:—Did Christ show Himself to you after that?

Thomas:—He did. Eight days later I was with the Apostles in a house in Jerusalem when the Savior appeared in our midst. As soon as He entered the room He said, "Peace be unto you." Then turning to me, He said, "Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." (John 20: 26, 27.) I recognized Him at once, and I exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!"

The World:—You saw the print of the nails in His hands, and the mark of the spear in His side?

Thomas:—I did.

The World:—Then, He must have appeared to you in the same body in which He was crucified?

Thomas:—He did, in the very same body of flesh and bones, but quickened by Spirit. (Luke 24: 39.)

The World:—Did you see Him after that!

Thomas:—I did, a number of times. One evening Simon Peter, Nathaniel of Cana, the sons of Zebedee, two other disciples and I went out fishing. We fished the entire night, but caught nothing. As we were returning in the morning, we saw a "man," as we supposed, standing on the shore. He asked us if we had any meat, and we answered that we had not. He told us to cast our net on the right side of the ship. We did so, and to our astonishment we caught one hundred and fifty-three fishes. John was the first to recognize the "man" on the shore, and as soon as he saw who He was, he exclaimed, "It is the Lord!" On hearing that, Peter jumped into the sea and swam to the shore. We were delighted to meet our beloved Redeemer once again. The Lord had prepared a fire of coals, and had some fish cooked. He invited us to come and dine with Him, which we did, and ate heartily of bread and fish. That was the third time that Jesus showed Himself to us after His resurrection. (John 21.)

The World:—Were you present at the ascension of Christ?

Thomas:—I was.

The World:—Tell us what took place on that occasion.

Thomas:—Just before His ascension He said to us, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1: 8.) As soon as He had finished speaking He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of our sight. As we stood gazing after Him, two men dressed in white apparel appeared, and, addressing us, said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1st chap.)

The World:—That is all, Thomas.

Latter-day Saints (to the World):—We have proved by the last witness, an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, that Christ arose from the grave in the same body which was nailed to the cross, but immortalized; in that body He appeared to His disciples; in that same body He made a fire of coals on the shore and prepared food, which He ate with His disciples; in that same body He ascended into heaven; in that same body He shall come again to the earth.

The World:—What evidence have you that Christ shall come again in His crucified body?

Latter-day Saints:—We have the testimony of the Prophet Zechariah.

The World:—We will hear what he has to say.

TESTIMONY OF ZECHARIAH.

The World:—Your name is Zechariah?

Zechariah:—It is.

The World:—Were you a Prophet in Israel?

Zechariah:—I was so honored of the Lord.

The World:—Did you prophesy concerning the second coming of Christ?

Zechariah:—I did. I prophesied and said, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." (Zechariah 14: 4.) "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zechariah 13: 6.)

The World:—We will excuse the witness.

Latter-day Saints:—We have another witness whose testimony we would like you to hear; his name is Paul.

The World:—We will be pleased to listen to his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:—Your name is Paul?

Paul:—It is.

The World:—Are you an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Paul:—I am.

The World:—Have you ever seen Christ?

Paul:—I have. (I Cor. 15: 8.)

The World:—What is your testimony concerning Christ?

Paul:—It is the same as that of Thomas and the rest of the Apostles—that He has a body of flesh and bones.

The World:—What is your testimony concerning God, the Father of Christ?

Paul:—I testify that as Christ is so is His Father. I wrote to the Hebrew saints on this matter, as follows: "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Heb. 1: 3.) Christ said on one occasion: "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

The World:—We have no further questions to ask the witness.

Latter-day Saints:—We now respectfully ask you to listen to the testimony of the young prophet, Joseph Smith.

The World:—We have heard a great deal concerning that young man. It has been reported that he declared he had seen God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Latter-day Saints:—Such, indeed, was his testimony, and tens of thousands of us have received testimonies from the Lord that he spoke the truth.

The World:—We will hear him for ourselves.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH SMITH.

The World:—Your name is Joseph Smith, Jr.?

Joseph Smith:—It is.

The World:—Are you the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Joseph Smith:—I was simply an humble instrument in the hands of the Lord in re-establishing, according to the revelations of God, the Church of Christ upon the earth.

The World:—So, you profess to have received revelations from God?

Joseph Smith:—I do. More than that: I have seen God and His Son Jesus Christ, and have talked with them.

The World:—We are desirous of hearing from your own lips your testimony concerning this matter.

Joseph Smith:—Realizing that I, as well as all other men, shall have to stand some day before the judgment bar of God to be judged according to my works, my testimony in this case shall be the truth, and the truth only, God being my witness. I was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, state of Vermont. My father, Joseph Smith, Senior, left the state of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the state of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father's arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester, in the same county of Ontario. His family consisted of eleven souls, namely—my father, Joseph Smith; my mother, Lucy Smith (whose name, previous to her marriage, was Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack); my brothers, Alvin (who died November 19th, 1824, in the 27th year of his age), Hyrum, myself, Samuel Harrison, William, Don Carlos; and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy. Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, "Lo, here?" and others, "Lo, there!" Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist. For notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased—yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued; priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions. I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely—my mother Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia. During this time of great excitement, my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who wrong. My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of either reason or sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others. In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself, What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it? While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if He gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture. So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally. After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other—"This is my beloved Son, hear him!" My object in going to enquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the beforementioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying, it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them. I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me. It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself. However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defence before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light, and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise. So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it, at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

The World:—Then, according to your testimony, God the Father, and Jesus Christ are two distinct Personages?

Joseph Smith:—That is my testimony. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also: but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

The World:—So that if we were to see God now, we would see Him in the form of man?

Joseph Smith:—You would. "If the veil was rent today, and the Great God, who holds this world in its orbit, who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible—I say, If you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another."

The World:—The witness is excused.

Latter-day Saints:—This closes our case. You have heard the testimonies of Abraham, Moses, Thomas, Zechariah, Paul, and Joseph Smith. The testimonies of these servants of the Lord are similar in every respect. You cannot reject the testimony of Joseph Smith without rejecting the testimonies of the others. We pray you, give heed to these things; for "this is life eternal: to know the living and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent."

III.—FAITH AND WORKS.

The World:—What are the first principles and ordinances of your religion?

Latter-day Saints:—The first principles and ordinances of our religion are these: First, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The World:—Do you believe that good works must accompany faith in order for men to obtain salvation?

Latter-day Saints:—We do. We maintain that belief alone is not sufficient to bring salvation to any man. "Faith without works is dead." Faith is the first principle of the Gospel of Christ: it is the foundation upon which every other principle and ordinance rests. You remember, the Apostle Paul said, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Heb. 11: 6.)

The World:—Well, we have been taught that all a person has to do in order to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the Gospel which Paul and Silas preached to the Philippian jailor and his household. When the jailor asked Paul and his companion what he should do to be saved, they answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16: 30, 31.)

Latter-day Saints:—No, that is only part of the Gospel which Paul and Silas preached to the jailor and his house. They did not stop at belief, as the majority of preachers do in these days. But here is the Apostle Paul; he can speak for himself.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:—Paul, when the Philippian jailor asked you and Silas what he should do to be saved, what did you tell him?

Paul:—We told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and he would be saved, and also his house. (Acts 16: 31.)

The World:—We thought so. Now, if the jailor and his household had simply to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to gain salvation, why should other people have to do more?

Paul:—But we did not tell the jailor and his household that that was all they had to do. We taught them other doctrines besides belief in Christ; we taught them the ordinance of baptism. Here is what the record says: "Then he (the jailor) called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway." (Acts 16: 29-33.)

The World:—You have spoken truly, Paul. We see that, according to the record, after you had told the jailor to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you taught him and his household other commandments of the Lord, among them baptism. One more question: Did you preach to the people that Jesus Christ was the author of eternal salvation?

Paul:—I did.

The World:—And Jesus Christ, the author of eternal salvation, taught this doctrine, that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life?"

Paul:—He did. But you have quoted only part of what I said and only part of what Christ said. I did not tell the people that Christ had become the author of eternal salvation to all those who would simply believe in Him. Here is what I said: "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb. 5: 8, 9.) Jesus did not tell the people that they would have eternal life by simply believing in Him. This is what He said: "Not every one that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matt 7: 21.) Now, it would appear from this that there were people in the days of the Savior who believed, as thousands of people believe today, that they could get into the Kingdom of God by simply believing in Christ, and calling Him Lord, Lord. And in order to disabuse their minds of that erroneous belief. Jesus made use of the words which I have just quoted. Now, do you think that I, or any other servant of the Lord, would preach salvation through belief alone when Christ had condemned such doctrine? On one occasion He said: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." (Luke 6: 46-49.) Here is a Gospel not only of believing, but of doing: a Gospel, not of faith alone, but of faith and works.

The World:—We dare not dispute what you have said; were we to do so, we would be disputing the words of Christ. Permit us, however, to ask you another question.

Paul:—Certainly.

The World:—Isn't it a fact that Christ, when He was upon the cross, and just as He was about to give up the ghost, said, "It is finished"?

Paul:—That is true.

The World:—Did Christ not mean that He had done all that was necessary for man's salvation? that He had paid the price of man's redemption, and that there was nothing left for mankind to do?

Paul:—Part of what you have said is, indeed, true: Christ atoned for our sins on Calvary's cross; He died that we might live, and that He might present us, pure and spotless, to the Father. But when He said, "It is finished," He did not mean that from that time henceforth and forever mankind would have nothing whatever to do but to believe in Him, and by that simple assent of their minds obtain eternal life and an everlasting inheritance in the Kingdom of His Father. He meant that His sufferings were at an end; He meant that He had drunk the bitter cup to the dregs; He meant that He had done the will of the Father, and had thus become, as I told the Hebrew Saints, the author of eternal salvation to all those who would obey Him. After Christ had risen from the dead He tarried for forty days with His disciples, during which time He taught them many things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. In giving them their commission, He said to them, "Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." (Matt. 28: 19-20.) So you see, Christ did not tell His Apostles to tell the people that all they had to do was to believe in Him: they were to teach them to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded them.

The World:—Did you write an epistle to the Ephesians?

Paul:—I did.

The World:—Here is an extract from it to which we desire to call your attention: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2: 8, 9.) Did you write that?

Paul:—I did.

The World:—What did you mean by writing in this way to the Ephesians?

Paul:—Merely this, and nothing more: the Ephesians, as well as many others, thought to justify themselves by the works of the law—by circumcision, for instance. They did not understand that the law had been fulfilled in Christ, and so they wanted to continue in the practice of dead works. These I condemned, but I never spoke one word against the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ. On the contrary, I exhorted the people to perform good works. This is what I wrote to the Ephesians: "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free." (Ephesians 6: 8.) I wrote practically the same thing to Titus. Here is an extract from my letter to him: "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works." (Titus 3: 8.) Surely you do not think that I would write to the Ephesians one time condemning good works, and write afterwards to them and also to Titus commending good works? The works that I condemned were dead works, such as circumcision; but God forbid that I should advise anyone against keeping all the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said that he who would break one of the least of His commandments, and teach men to do so, the same would be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The World:—That is all, Paul.

Latter-day Saints:—Perhaps you would like to hear the testimony of the Apostles John and James?

The World:—Certainly, if they can give us any additional light on the subject.

Latter-day Saints:—John, we would be pleased to have you tell The World whether you consider good works essential to salvation.

JOHN'S TESTIMONY.

John:—I am more than pleased to speak on this important matter. As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I taught the people to do the will of God as it had been laid down by the Savior.

The World:—It is recorded in the Gospel which bears your name that Christ said, "God so loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?"

John:—That is correct.

The World:—Did you not infer from that that all a man had to do in order to be saved was to believe in Christ?

John:—I did not; for Christ, just a little while before, had said to Nicodemus, who knew that Jesus was a Teacher sent of God: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.) There is something more than belief in those words.

The World:—Did you not teach the people that the blood of Jesus Christ would cleanse them from all sin?

John:—I did; but it was on the condition that they walked as Christ walked. This is what I said: "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (I John 1: 7.) After Christ had taught us the principles of the Gospel, He said to us: "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." (John 13: 17.) Again He said to us: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also." (John 14: 12.) The Lord gave me a vision when I was on the Isle of Patmos: "and I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev. 20: 12.) In the face of all these things, how could I believe that belief alone in Christ was all that was necessary for salvation?

The World:—The witness is excused.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES.

The World:—James, were you commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ to preach His Gospel?

James:—I was.

The World:—Did you not teach the people that all that was necessary in order to attain to salvation was belief in the Lord Jesus Christ?

James:—How dare I teach such doctrine when the Lord had instructed us to teach them to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded us?

The World:—Then, you believe that in order for a man to procure salvation he must have works with his faith?

James:—I do most assuredly. I taught the people that faith without works is dead. Surely you have read my epistle, wherein I said: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. * * * But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? * * * For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2: 14-18, 20, 26.)

The World:—This is certainly strange doctrine to us. We have been taught from childhood that all we had to do to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

James:—You say that that is what the preachers have taught you?

The World:—It is. The only gospel that we have been taught is the gospel of Belief Alone. We have never been taught that we had to do anything towards our salvation.

James:—You have been deceived by false teachers, whom Paul prophesied would rise up in the last days. Here is the prophecy: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables." (II Timothy 4: 3, 4.)

The World:—Paul truly prophesied as you have said; but do you think his prophecy applies to the preachers of the present time?

James:—I would prefer that you answer that question yourselves. I believe that I can make this matter very plain to you. Supposing a man were to come to you at the present time and tell you that good works were not at all essential to salvation, that all you had to do to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; and after he had gone out three Apostles of the Lord Jesus should come in and tell you that belief alone would not save you, that you would have to couple works with your faith, which of these men would you believe?

The World:—That scarcely needs an answer: we would, of course, believe the Apostles.

James:—I thought as much. Well, Paul, John and I have told you, just as plainly as it is possible for us to do, that belief alone will not save you: that you must have works as well as faith. And as you have told me that you believe our words, I would advise you, if you do not wish to deceive yourselves, to be doers of the word, as well as hearers of it.

The World:—Thank you, James. That is all.

Latter-day Saints:—The words of the Apostles are very plain, indeed; James told us that what the spirit is to the body so works are to faith; and that as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. We would advise you to accept the teachings of Christ and of His inspired Apostles.

The World:—In the face of all these Scriptures, we cannot see how our preachers can teach that good works are not essential to salvation.

Latter-day Saints:—We are not at all surprised at their doing so. If the Scriptures are to be fulfilled, we must expect to see men arise speaking perverse things, and drawing away disciples after them. It has been clearly proven that Christ and His Apostles taught that men would have to couple good works with their faith if they expected to get salvation. Now, any doctrine contrary to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles is the doctrine of men. But as it was in the days of the Savior, so it is today. Christ said of the people in His day: "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matt. 15: 8, 9.)

The World:—We are very thankful to you for calling our attention to these plain and precious truths, and the next time that we are visited by our ministers we will request them to tell us who gave them authority to preach that good works are not essential to salvation, when the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught that they are. For our ministers have most assuredly taught us that the Lord would not accept of any good works that we might do.

Latter-day Saints:—Then He has changed since the days of the early Apostles. Do you not remember what happened to Cornelius? Cornelius was not like the people of the present day, for he believed in having good works with his faith; and instead of the Lord being displeased with him for performing good works, He sent an angel from heaven to tell him that his prayers and his alms had come up for a memorial before God. (Acts 10: 4.) Now, if all the ministers in the world told you that good works are not essential to salvation, all you would have to do would be to turn to this Scripture, and there you could show them how the Lord had so approved of a man's good works that He sent an angel from heaven to tell him that He had accepted of them, and to tell him of other things which were necessary for him to do. And, if that were not sufficient, you could refer them to the writings of the Apostle Peter, who said: "And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (II Peter 1: 5-11.)

IV.—REPENTANCE.

The World:—You say, Faith in God and in His Son Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel, and the second is Repentance?

Latter-day Saints:—Yes, the second principle of the Gospel is repentance.

The World:—What do you understand the term repentance to mean?

Latter-day Saints:—Repentance is a deep, sincere, heartfelt sorrow for sin, producing a reformation of life. It is, in a word, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well. Here is the Apostle Paul, who will be pleased to speak upon this important subject.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

Paul:—I speak from experience concerning this most essential principle of the Gospel of Christ. I was, as you all know, a most unrelenting persecutor of the Saints. I had even gone so far as to assent to the death of the faithful Stephen. I was on my way to Damascus, with letters from the high priest, authorizing me to bring bound to Jerusalem all those whom I found professing faith in Jesus Christ. I verily believed that I was doing God service. As I neared Damascus, the Lord checked me in my evil course and called me to repentance. He declared that by persecuting His saints I was persecuting Him, and told me to desist from my ungodly work. On hearing the word of the Lord, my soul was rilled with remorse, and I immediately turned round and, by a life consecrated to Christ and His cause, sought to atone for my past offences.

The World:—Was it the Lord, then, who led you to repentance?

Paul:—It was, for repentance is one of the most precious gifts of God to men. Through the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ that choice gift has been purchased for poor, fallen humanity. But, I would have you understand, that God is jealous of all His gifts. He does not bestow them where they would not be appreciated. Repentance, like every other gift of God, has been promised to men on certain conditions.

The World:—Please tell us what these conditions are.

Paul:—One of the conditions is that men will manifest a desire to cease from sin, and to work righteousness in the sight of God. The Lord, speaking through Isaiah the prophet, made a promise unto the children of men that if they would seek Him they would find Him, and that if they would forsake their evil ways and thoughts and turn unto Him, He would pardon their transgressions. I quote from the writings of the prophet: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55: 6, 7.) Thus we see that the gift of repentance is promised men on condition that they seek the Lord and forsake their evil ways and thoughts. The Lord has assured us that He has no pleasure whatever in the death of a sinner. Speaking to the house of Israel by the mouth of the Prophet Ezekiel, He said: "Say unto them, as I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" "Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; if the wicked restore the pledge, given again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live." (Ezek. 33: 11, 14-16.) But, behold, a greater than Ezekiel has testified to the same thing. Here are the words of Jesus Christ, the Author of eternal salvation: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5: 32.) "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15: 7.)

The World:—Thank you, Paul, for your testimony.

Latter-day Saints:—We have another witness who was called by the Lord to preach repentance to the people of his generation.

The World:—We are ready to listen to his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF NOAH.

The World:—What is your name?

Noah:—My name is Noah.

The World:—Were you called by the Lord to preach repentance unto the people in your day?

Noah:—I was. The Lord beheld that the wickedness of the children of men was great upon the earth. They had entirely turned away from the holy commandments which had been delivered unto them. They took pleasure in all manner of wickedness and abominations. They were, as are millions of the human family at the present time, "lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God." The Lord saw that the imaginations of their hearts were evil continually, and that they would surely perish if they did not turn from their wicked, reprobate ways. Therefore, He called me to be a preacher of righteousness, and commissioned me to go forth and cry repentance unto that wicked and perverse generation. I was commanded to build an ark, into which I was to take all those who would hearken unto my words and turn unto the Lord. I was obedient unto the heavenly commandment, and went forth among the people, crying repentance unto them, and warning them to flee from the wrath to come. I preached not alone by precept, but by my works also. I immediately set to work to construct the ark, and during the one hundred and twenty years while the ark was being prepared, I cried aloud and spared not. O, how my soul was grieved when I beheld the hardness of the hearts of the people, for I knew that God would not be mocked, that He would not strive with them forever, but that He would surely destroy them if they did not repent of their sins.

The World:—What success did you meet with, Noah, in your preaching?

Noah:—Practically none. My words seemed to them as idle tales. They spurned the message which I brought them from their merciful Creator. They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they married and were given in marriage up till the very day that I and my family—eight souls in all—entered the ark, and the Lord shut the door. Even now, I fancy I can hear their scoffs and scorns, their mockings and derisions, as we bade them a last farewell till we would meet them at the judgment bar of God. Then was the word of the Lord fulfilled, and His righteous judgments were poured out upon those wicked people and they perished from the earth. (Gen. 6: 7.) And now, in closing my testimony, I will say to you, that God has not changed: He is the same yesterday, today and forever; He does not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, and just as sure as God is God, so sure will His judgments come upon the inhabitants of the earth in these latter-days if they do not repent and turn from their transgressions. "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13: 3.)

The World:—That is all, Noah.

Latter-day Saints:—We now most respectfully ask you to listen to the testimony of another servant of the Lord.

ABRAHAM'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—What is your name?

Abraham:—My name is Abraham.

The World:—Are you prepared to give testimony concerning the matter which is before us?

Abraham:—I am.

The World:—We will listen to your testimony.

Abraham:—It grieves me to have to report that the inhabitants of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah failed to profit by the sad fate which befell the people in the days of Noah. With the history of the past before them, showing clearly God's hatred of sin, they added day by day to the cup of their iniquities. Their abominations at last became unbearable to the Lord, and He decreed that He would destroy them from the face of the earth. I shall never forget the day that the Lord came to me in Mamre and informed me of His intention of destroying the cities of the plains and the inhabitants thereof. My soul was filled with sorrow, nevertheless I knew that all the judgments of the Lord were just. I besought Him to grant me favor in His sight, which He did. I asked Him if He would spare the city of Sodom provided fifty righteous souls were found there. He promised me that He would spare the city if it contained fifty righteous inhabitants. But alas! that number could not be found. I plead with the Lord again and again, and He finally consented to turn away His judgments from Sodom if ten God-fearing persons were found in the city. But ten such persons could not be found, and the Lord in His anger destroyed the inhabitants of those wicked cities and thus blotted out their iniquity from before His face. (Gen. 18: 19.) And as He spared not the cities of the plains, neither will He spare any other city or nation that forgets God. As Noah said, so say I, Woe unto the inhabitants of the earth if they do not repent. Behold, ere they are aware, the Spirit of God will cease to strive with them, and they shall, by their ungodly deeds, bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The World:—We have listened with interest to your testimony, Abraham. You are excused.

Latter-day Saints:—We will now introduce a witness who will show you the great blessings which came to the people of Nineveh when they turned from their evil ways and began to work righteousness in the sight of the Lord.

TESTIMONY OF JONAH.

The World:—What is your name?

Jonah:—My name is Jonah.

The World:—Were you called by the Lord to preach repentance?

Jonah:—I was. The word of the Lord came to me on one occasion, saying: "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me." (Jonah 1: 2.)

The World:—Did you do as the Lord commanded you?

Jonah:—I did not. I went down to Joppa, and there took ship for Tarshish. The Lord punished me for my disobedience, and then He said unto me the second time, "Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee." (Jonah 3: 2.) So I did as the Lord commanded me. As I entered the city I began to cry aloud, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing; let them not feed, nor drink water: but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3: 5-10.)

Latter-day Saints:—The next witness whose evidence we desire you to hear is John, the forerunner of Christ.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN.

The World:—Your name is John?

John:—It is.

The World:—Were you called by the Lord to preach repentance to the people of your generation?

John:—I was. I was sent before the Lord to prepare His way. I called upon the people to repent of their sins, for the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. (Matt. 3: 1, 2.)

The World:—Were you able to bring many to repentance?

John:—Yes, many people of Judaea and Jerusalem, upon hearing the proclamation, repented, came forward and confessed their sins, and were baptized in the river Jordan. (Mark 1: 5.)

The World:—Are we to understand that confession of sins is essential?

John:—Such has been the teaching of the servants of the Lord in every dispensation. Without confession of sins repentance is incomplete. Here are the words of the inspired teachers: "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Prov. 28: 13.) "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1: 8, 9.) But confession should be accompanied with a promise and determination to sin no more. To confess his sins before God will not benefit a man unless his confession is accompanied with a determination to sin no more. He must covenant with the Lord that he is willing to forsake sin, and that in future he will, with His Divine assistance, yield to no evil, but will shun the very appearance of it, and keep himself unspotted from the world. God cannot be deceived, and He will not pardon those who merely confess their sins, and still make no effort to forsake them.

The World:—Repentance is, therefore, conditional?

John:—It is. Men must be willing to confess their sins and to forsake them. They must also be willing to forgive others. In fact, Christ told the people that His Father would not forgive them their trespasses if they in their hearts failed to forgive those who trespassed against them. These are His words: "If ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6: 14, 15.) And this forgiveness must be without limit. On one occasion Peter asked the Lord, "How oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him, till seven times?" The Master answered, "I say not unto thee, until seven times; but until seventy times seven." On another occasion He taught the disciples, saying, "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him." (Luke 17: 3, 4.) Nowhere are repentance, confession and forgiveness more beautifully portrayed than in Christ's parable of the prodigal son. After having wasted his substance in riotous living, and being brought down so low that he had to satisfy his hunger with swine's food, the prodigal at last came to himself. He thought of his father's home in which he had spent so many happy years, of the good things of the earth with which the tables had always been laden, of the hired servants who waited upon the family. The spirit of repentance entered his heart, and springing to his feet he exclaimed, "I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, and am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. * * * But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. * * * And the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: and bring hither the fatted calf and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: for this my sen was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found." (Luke 15: 18-20, 21-24.) In this parable is clearly exhibited the love and mercy of God. Verily, he that cometh to Him shall in nowise be cast out.

The World:—We will excuse the witness.

Latter-day Saints:—This is our case. We believe we have proved most conclusively that repentance is essential to salvation. "For this ye know," said the apostle, "that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God." (Eph. 5: 5.) The Lord has also said by the mouth of John the Revelator: "The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21: 8.) We, therefore, say unto all men, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Gal. 6: 7.) "We have pointed out all the prominent principles connected with true repentance. And it can easily be seen by every honest heart, that God requires mankind to seek diligently to discern good from evil, and to ascertain what sins and evils they are guilty of; to be exercised with a Godly sorrow that they have ever sinned against so great and good a Being as God; to make suitable confession before God, for all past sins committed; and such a confession must be accompanied with a solemn covenant or promise to sin no more; and the heart should be fixed and immovable in this covenant. All persons who will do these things will have a measure of the Spirit of Christ resting upon them, imparting humility, and meekness, and lowliness of heart. But still this repentance does not guarantee to them a remission of sins; it only prepares the heart to obey properly a great and holy ordinance which God has instituted expressly for the remission of sins. We mean the ordinance of baptism."

V.—WATER BAPTISM.

The World:—Do you believe and teach that water baptism is essential to salvation?

Latter-day Saints:—We do. Water baptism was commanded by the Lord, and we do not teach people that they can get into the Kingdom of Heaven by breaking the Lord's commandments.

The World:—Well, we have been taught that baptism is not at all essential to salvation, that it is simply an outward sign of an inward grace.

Latter-day Saints:—Baptism was instituted before the foundation of the world. It is an ordinance of the everlasting Gospel, and by obedience to that ordinance, coupled with faith, and sincere repentance, the Lord has promised mankind a remission of their sins. "We have the testimony of many eminent writers that baptism was practiced by the Jews, as a religious ceremony, ages anterior to the birth of our Savior. It is said that the Jews not only circumcised, but baptized all new converts to their faith; and that in the days of Solomon great numbers were proselyted from the surrounding nations, and were baptized. It is by some supposed that the Jews, before Christ, did not baptize those of Jewish descent, but only such as were proselyted from foreign nations. But it is certain that baptism was administered, under the law of Moses, unto numerous multitudes of Jews; for John the Baptist, who was the legal heir of the Aaronic Priesthood, through the lineage of his fathers, did administer this rite to thousands of the Jews for the remission of their sins; and this, too, at a time when the law of Moses was in full force. Even Jesus Himself had not yet been baptized. None of the old institution was yet abolished; and no new institutions were, as yet, introduced. And while under the strictest obligations to keep the old law, John was baptizing; and there went out to him Jerusalem and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matt. 3: 5, 6.) We ask you to hear the testimony of Paul on this subject.

The World:—We will be pleased to hear the Apostle's evidence.

PAUL'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—Paul, did you teach the people that water baptism was practiced by the Israelites before the days of John the Baptist?

Paul:—I did. Water baptism is one of the ordinances of the Gospel—the true Gospel, which embraces one Lord, one faith and one baptism. That Gospel was preached to the people in the days of Abraham; and also to the Israelites under Moses. Have you not read what I wrote to the Galatians, the Hebrews and the Corinthians concerning this matter? I quote from my epistles: "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the Gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal. 3: 8.) "For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." (Heb. 4: 2.) "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea." (I Cor. 10: 1, 2.)

The World:—Paul, you have clearly proved the antiquity of baptism. We will excuse you for the present.

Latter-day Saints:—We can prove to you beyond the possibility of doubt that water baptism is essential to man's salvation. As you know, nearly all the Christian sects believe in and practice some form of baptism, but, with two or three exceptions, none of them believe that that ordinance aids, even in the slightest degree, in the salvation of the souls of men. This is a mistake. Baptism is one of the first ordinances of the Gospel, and is as essential to man's salvation as any other ordinance that God has ever revealed.

The World:—We are ready to hear your witnesses on this matter.

Latter-day Saints:—The first witness that we will introduce is John the Baptist.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN.

The World:—Your name is John?

John:—It is.

The World:—You told us on a former occasion that you were called of God to go before Christ and prepare His way.

John:—That is correct. You will find it so recorded in John's Gospel. (John 1: 6.)

The World:—What did God command you to preach to the people?

John:—Repentance and water baptism.

The World:—You say that God sent you to baptize with water?

John:—He did. It is recorded in the scriptures: "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (John 1: 33.)

The World:—What did you tell the people was the object of water baptism?

John:—I told them that it was for the remission of sins. Mark and Luke bear me witness. The former says: "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remissions of sins." (Mark 1: 4.) Luke says: "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Luke 3: 3.)

The World:—After what manner did you baptize?

John:—As I was commanded by the Lord—by immersion. I took the repentant believers down to the river Jordan, and there I baptized them by immersing them in the water.

The World:—Then you do not believe in infant sprinkling?

John:—I do not. It is contrary to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles. There was but one form of baptism known to them, that was baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. On one occasion when people applied to me for baptism, I had to take them to Aenon, near to Salim, "because there was much water there." (John 3: 23.) Had I considered sprinkling just as acceptable to God as immersion, I would not have taken the people to Aenon to be baptized.

The World:—You baptized Jesus Christ?

John:—I did.

The World:—When Christ applied to you for baptism what did you say?

John:—I said, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" Then Jesus said to me, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3: 14, 15.)

The World:—You say that Christ requested you to baptize Him in order that He might fulfill all righteousness?

John:—He did. And if the Son of God, being holy, had need to be baptized with water that He might fulfill all righteousness, how much more need have mortal men, they being unholy, to be baptized? According to the words of the Savior a man cannot fulfill all righteousness if he fails to comply with the ordinance of baptism. I told the Pharisees and lawyers that they had rejected the counsel of God against themselves by not being baptized. (Luke 7: 30.) And as it was in those days, so it is today—all those who slight this command of the Lord, and refuse to be baptized by immersion for the remission of their sins, will, like the Pharisees and lawyers, reject the counsel of God against themselves.

The World:—The witness is excused. (To the Latter-day Saints.) When was the method of baptism changed?

Latter-day Saints:—In the third century after Christ, in the case of a man named Novatian. Gahan, a Catholic historian, writing of him, says: "Having embraced the faith, he continued a catechumen, till, falling dangerously ill, and his life being despaired of, he was baptized in bed, not by immersion, which was then the usual method, but by infusion, or pouring on of water."

The World:—Who is your next witness?

Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Jewish ruler Nicodemus.

TESTIMONY OF NICODEMUS.

The World:—Nicodemus, had you an interview with Christ?

Nicodemus:—I had. I called upon Him one night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with him." (John 3: 2.)

The World:—What did Christ say in reply?

Nicodemus:—He told me that I would have to be born again—born of water and of the Spirit. He spoke most emphatically concerning this matter, saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.)

The World:—What did you interpret the words "born of the water and of the Spirit" to mean?

Nicodemus:—I interpreted them to mean the baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit. Christ was born of the water and of the Spirit when He was baptized; His disciples were born of the water and of the Spirit, and the Savior declared that except a man receive this new birth he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

The World:—We have been taught that the water which Jesus spoke of was the word of God.

Nicodemus:—He did not tell me that. I am sure that if Christ had meant the word of God He would have said so. Christ did not say one thing and mean another. Why should men put false sentiments into the mouth of the Son of God? That you may see the absurdity of this interpretation which men have put upon the words of Christ, I will make a few quotations from the scriptures, substituting the words "word of God" for the word "water": "And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the word of God." "And John was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there were much words of God there." "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the word of God. * * * And when they were come up out of the word of God." u Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid the word of God, that these should not be baptized." "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the word of God by the word."