HEARINGS OF THE INTERNATIONAL JOINT COMMISSION IN RE REMEDIES FOR THE POLLUTION OF BOUNDARY WATERS. (continued 6)

Dr. Goodale. We dump it into the river. It goes down through the main sewer.

Mr. Powell. Do you burn your garbage?

Dr. Goodale. Yes, sir.

Mr. Powell. You burn the least nocuous?

Dr. Goodale. Well, we could not very well burn the sewage. We burn the garbage; that is, it is emptied every day. We have a man remove it every day. It is taken away and each cottage pays a certain amount for its removal. We have nothing at Thousand Island Park to breed disease but what we dispose of.

I have no apology to make for anything that we do that injures our neighbors, because we really have not been looking out for that. We would be very glad to if we were able. The last fire we had damaged us about $250,000 to $300,000, so you will realize that we have not much money to spare. We have the healthiest place that I know of anywhere in the United States or Canada. Thousand Island Park is really an international park. We have a tabernacle in which we can seat about 3,000 people. We would be very glad to cooperate with this commission, or with anybody else, for the benefit of the St. Lawrence River, but we are too poor to do it just now. I did not come here to ask for anything, but to simply state to you that we are doing everything we can for the protection of the health of the people who visit us and of the people who go up and down the river. I would like to ask whether or not this commission is appointed from Washington?

Mr. Gardner. It is appointed by both Governments. The commission was brought into existence by treaty between Great Britain and the United States, and, among other things, they agreed in that treaty that they would not permit the pollution of the boundary waters to the injury of property or health on either side. Now, the two Governments referred the question to this commission to ascertain whether or not the terms of the treaty were being violated, and if the waters were being polluted in contravention of the treaty. The commission put bacteriologists at work, and they have demonstrated beyond any question that the waters are being grossly polluted in places in violation of the treaty. The Governments then asked this commission to determine the remedy. That is what the commission is at work upon at the present time, to devise a remedy for this wholesale pollution that has been going on indiscriminately all up and down the boundary waters. The fact that any one community has been able to get pure water and avoid sickness does not change the matter at all; if they are dumping their sewage into the boundary water it is the duty of this commission to ascertain the facts and report them to the Governments. If the Governments accept the remedies that the commission finally submits to them for adoption there will not, I apprehend, be any discrimination between communities; they will all be treated alike.

Dr. Goodale. As I understand it this commission has nothing to consider in regard to the purity or impurity of the St. Lawrence River.

Mr. Gardner. Yes; the commission have to determine whether or not the waters are being polluted in contravention of the treaty; and, if so, what is the remedy. But the two countries have agreed that the waters shall not be polluted to the injury of health or property on the other side.

Dr. Goodale. Well, what are they going to do if it is?

Mr. Gardner. Well, we are ascertaining the facts now. We are trying to get at the actual conditions, and when we submit our report to the Governments it is for them to devise the administrative part of it. These two great Governments have joined in this movement, and I do not think there is any question but that they will be able to put a stop to what they regard as an unwarranted abuse.

Mr. King. Mr. Chairman, I came here on instructions from the Dominion Marine Association and with no intention of saying anything unless called upon. I have an opportunity of going home on the 4 o’clock boat, which I would take if I had any assurance that the question of the steamers is not coming any more definitely before the commission than it has to-day.

Mr. Gardner. The commission held a hearing in Detroit for the special purpose of hearing the navigation interests, and they appeared there. If you have anything to say we shall be glad to hear it.

Mr. King. I am not pressing for the opportunity, but I wish to furnish the commission any information that they wish to obtain with regard to the boats, and I did not like to leave without asking the commission if they desired to ask any questions.

Mr. Gardner. So far as my recollection goes the representatives of the navigation interests were very ready at the Detroit meeting to adopt any methods or remedies that proved to be reliable and safe. So far as that feature of it is concerned we have regarded the matter as closed. We are in perfect accord with them and they with us.

Mr. King. I understood from Prof. Phelps that the test is now being made on the Lakes.

Mr. Gardner. It is, and in case there is any weakness I apprehend it will be remedied.

Mr. King. I hope you will call upon us at any time you need information or assistance.

Mr. Gardner. Mr. Irving, the commission is now ready to hear the representatives of the city of Ogdensburg.

STATEMENT OF MR. ANDREW IRVING, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS OF OGDENSBURG, N. Y.

Mr. Irving. Mr. Chairman, the mayor of Ogdensburg was called away, and will not be back again until after the first of the month. The board of public works is represented, as is also the board of water commissioners. I am president of the board of public works and Mr. Darrow is president of the board of water commissioners. We are prepared to give you any information that you may desire with regard to the sewerage and water here. The city engineer is also present, as well as the superintendent of the waterworks.

Mr. Gardner. Are you prepared to go on now?

Mr. Irving. Yes; I would be glad to do so.

Mr. Gardner. As president of the board of public works all the public utilities come under your supervision, do they?

Mr. Irving. We have nothing to do with the water board. That is a separate and distinct commission. Mr. Darrow represents that commission. We have charge of the sewers, the building of the sewers, and the building of the streets and public works.

Mr. Magrath. What is the population of Ogdensburg?

Mr. Irving. About 18,000; that is, including the inmates of the State hospitals.

Mr. Powell. You simply do the work of constructing the sewers and the manner and time of such construction is determined by the State authorities?

Mr. Irving. Yes, sir. I might more fully answer your question by explaining our sewerage system. In 1872 Col. George E. Waring, jr., was employed by the city of Ogdensburg to make a report upon a system of sewers, which he did. He also presented plans and gave a report as to the best method of sewering the city. Practically all sewers that have been built since that time have been built on what is called the Waring plan. The law provides that a sewer can not be built unless plans are submitted to the two State commissions, the State board of health and the State conservation commission. They have to approve the plans before the sewers are built. After those plans are adopted and approved by the two different commissions, then our board constructs the sewers. That, of course, is obligatory on the part of the city corporation.

Mr. Gardner. That same condition applies all over the State?

Mr. Irving. I believe it does. It certainly does so far as we are concerned. It applies to all cities of our class, at any rate. We are a city of the third class.

Mr. Gardner. You discharge your raw sewage into the St. Lawrence River?

Mr. Irving. It all gets in there ultimately.

Mr. Gardner. Have you ever considered any plans for its purification and sterilization?

Mr. Irving. Practically we have not; no, sir. We have in a sort of a desultory way spoken about it, because we can appreciate what a necessary thing it would be, but we have never seriously considered any plan.

Mr. Powell. Have the State authorities ever urged any plan upon you?

Mr. Irving. No. Of course there is a general proposition always floating about by the State authorities that the best way would be a sewage-disposal plant of some kind, but it has never been brought absolutely before us in concrete form. There has never been any mandate issued that we should do that. As a matter of fact, within the last year consent has been given to us to still empty the large sewer into what is practically the St. Lawrence River.

Mr. Gardner. What is the assessed valuation of the city?

Mr. Irving. I think it is about $6,000,000.

Mr. Powell. What is the population?

Mr. Irving. We consider it to be 18,000 people. That includes the State institution down here.

Mr. Magrath. Have you any complaint to make against the Canadian municipalities in the matter of pollution?

Mr. Irving. No; we are all in the same boat.

Mr. Mignault. Have you actually made any studies with regard to a sewage purification plant?

Mr. Irving. We never have. It has never been contemplated. It is one of those questions that I presume we felt was a bridge that would have to be crossed some time.

Mr. Magrath. How is your sewerage system situated with regard to a purification plant? Have you one outlet or several?

Mr. Irving. We have about 15 outlets altogether.

Mr. Mignault. It would be necessary to have an interceptor?

Mr. Irving. I may say that while Col. Waring suggested that at some time some different system of disposal would be necessary, he did not provide in the plan for any connection. You see we are lying right along the front of the St. Lawrence, and our outlets reach from up at one end of the city down to the other.

Mr. Mignault. Where is your waterworks intake?

Mr. Irving. The intake is well up above any local sewage. The water commissioners will explain all that to you and give you some valuable information regarding the contamination that they discovered when they put in the intake.

Mr. Mignault. You have no idea, have you, as to what it would cost to install a purification plant?

Mr. Irving. I have not the slightest idea. While Mr. Paterson was telling you what could be done I was interested in reading a few remarks that were made by Col. Waring in 1872, when he suggested our sewerage system. He said:

Many of the objections that hold against the system of water sewerage in most towns are inoperative in Ogdensburg. Not only can the whole city (except a small district near the river) be completely drained by natural fall, but the foul drainage will flow directly into a river that will carry it at once away—a river so large that there is no danger of action ever being taken by cities farther down the stream to prevent the contamination of the water. Indeed the only considerable objection that I can think of against carrying out a properly executed system of sewerage in Ogdensburg is the one item of its wastefulness. Properly deodorized and applied to good agricultural land, the night soil of a town of 10,000 inhabitants would be worth at least $50,000 annually. This shows that the item of wastefulness is worthy of the consideration of all thoughtful persons, and there is no doubt that at some not very distant day its force will be realized and the wasting of sewage will be stopped.

Mr. Mignault. What is the name of this local river that enters here?

Mr. Irving. The Oswegatchie.

Mr. Mignault. What is your indebtedness?

Mr. Irving. In 1914 it was $515,000, including the water board debt. The water board debt at that time was $68,250. In computing the bonded indebtedness of a town the water bonds are always excluded.

Mr. Mignault. Has there been any material change since then in your financial situation?

Mr. Irving. I presume that the issues would be about at a standoff. There have been some few small local bonds issued.

Mr. Powell. Does your water system pay its way?

Mr. Irving. These other gentlemen present can tell you about that.

Mr. Gardner. What is your tax rate?

Mr. Irving. One dollar and ninety-eight cents this year. That does not include our town tax; that is just the municipal tax.

Mr. Gardner. Do you have a State tax in New York?

Mr. Irving. Yes, sir.

Mr. Powell. Do you tax real property, personal property, and income?

Mr. Irving. Not income.

Mr. Powell. That is exempted?

Mr. Irving. We tax personal property and real estate. Of course, there is a national income tax.

Mr. Gardner. Do you have a county tax?

Mr. Irving. Yes; this $1.98 tax includes school and municipal taxes. Then we also have what is called a county tax.

Is there anything else in the way of information that I can give you about this matter? We have our sewer plans here, but I do not suppose they would interest you. The fact is that what sewage we have we empty into the St. Lawrence River.

Mr. Gardner. You are not an engineer, are you?

Mr. Irving. No, sir.

Mr. Gardner. Is your engineer present?

Mr. Irving. Yes, sir. Would you like to have some information from him?

Mr. Gardner. Just a few questions bearing upon the sewage.

Mr. Mignault. Did you state what distance from the shore the different outlets are?

Mr. Irving. Do you mean where they are situated?

Mr. Mignault. Yes.

Mr. Irving. No. We have the plans here. Part of them go into the Oswegatchie River, which empties into the St. Lawrence, but the others are at different places along the shore; all under the permission given to us by the two State boards and all practically following this particular plan.

Mr. Magrath. You do not contemplate installing any water-purification plant?

Mr. Irving. Yes; we have a splendid one which the board of water commissioners would be glad to tell you about. They are very proud of it.

STATEMENT OF ME. JOSEPH E. TATE, CITY ENGINEER OF OGDENSBURG.

Mr. Tawney. You are the city engineer of Ogdensburg?

Mr. Tate. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. You have acted in that capacity how long?

Mr. Tate. For about 10 years.

Mr. Tawney. Does the city of Ogdensburg discharge its raw sewage into the St. Lawrence River?

Mr. Tate. Most of it directly and some of it indirectly into the Oswegatchie.

Mr. Tawney. You have no plant in which you first treat your sewage?

Mr. Tate. No, sir.

Mr. Tawney. What kind of a water plant have you?

Mr. Tate. A filtration plant.

Mr. Tawney. A sand filtration plant?

Mr. Tate. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. Have you suffered in Ogdensburg in recent years in consequence of the pollution of the water that you drew from the St. Lawrence River?

Mr. Irving. Mr. Commissioner, will you allow me to suggest that the water board is in a much better position to give you information on those points than the city engineer, as those matters are under the separate and distinct management of the board?

Mr. Tawney. What cities are there on the St. Lawrence below Ogdensburg?

Mr. Tate. I believe Montreal is the first large city below Ogdensburg.

Mr. Tawney. Are there any small cities or towns?

Mr. Tate. Yes; there are several. There is Edwardsburg, or Cardinal.

Mr. Tawney. How near is the nearest one to Ogdensburg?

Mr. Tate. About 8 miles. That is on the Canadian side of the river. Then Waddington is 18 miles below. Morrisburg is nearly directly opposite Waddington. Cornwall is farther down, about 40 miles.

Mr. Powell. Mr. Tate, is Ogdensburg a difficult country in which to cut trenches?

Mr. Tate. Not generally speaking; no. It is clay and sand. Of course there are some streaks of hardpan here.

Mr. Powell. There is much rock?

Mr. Tate. Well, there is on the west side.

Mr. Powell. So it would be very expensive work to construct a series of intercepting sewers to connect all the existing sewers, would it not?

Mr. Tate. If we put in filtration plants, we would have to have two plants, one on each side of the river.

Mr. Powell. I am not speaking about your intake of water and the filtration; I am speaking about connecting with the sewers.

Mr. Tate. Of course if you treat the sewage, you would have to have two separate plants.

Mr. Powell. Yes; but you would have only one place where the sewage debauched into the river.

Mr. Tate. I think we would have to have two—one on the west and one on the east side.

Mr. Powell. Well, it would not be very expensive to make these intercepting sewers, would it?

Mr. Tate. I rather think it would be quite expensive.

Mr. Powell. There is nothing in the character of the soil that would make it expensive.

Mr. Tate. No; there is nothing in the character of the soil that would do so.

Mr. Powell. How far from the edge of the river do your sewers discharge?

Mr. Tate. Generally right at the face of the bank.

Mr. Powell. Have you contemplated the making of sedimentation beds or other means of purification of the sewage?

Mr. Tate. No, sir.

Mr. Powell. You have never made any calculations in regard to that?

Mr. Tate. Our system is a combined one. We take in the sewage and all surface flows.

Mr. Powell. Does the insane asylum down here connect with your sewerage system?

Mr. Tate. No, sir.

Mr. Powell. Is their sewage thrown into the river in a raw state?

Mr. Tate. Yes, sir.

Prof. Phelps. Could you intercept all the sewage without pumping, Mr. Tate?

Mr. Tate. I hardly think we could. I think very likely we would have to pump.

STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE F. DARROW, PRESIDENT OF THE WATER BOARD OF OGDENSBURG.

Mr. Tawney. Mr. Darrow, you are the president of the water commissioners?

Mr. Darrow. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. What have you to say in regard to the disposal of your sewage in the city of Ogdensburg?

Mr. Darrow. Well, we have never suffered from any pollution of the water supply, because we have filtered all of our water that has been taken from the St. Lawrence. Our water supply up to four or five years ago was the local river, the Oswegatchie, but we suffered from typhoid there, and we changed over into the St. Lawrence and put in a slow sand filtration plant. We have been almost completely free from any typhoid or any other water-borne disease since then.

Mr. Tawney. Do you chlorinate your water?

Mr. Darrow. No; we never have, except at one time, when we had a little break in our intake pipe.

Mr. Tawney. You discharge all your sewage directly into the river, do you?

Mr. Darrow. Yes, sir. The intake pipe is above the city and there is nothing that would cause contamination nearer than the village of Morristown, which is 12 miles away on this side of the river.

Mr. Tawney. How is it with respect to the towns below you?

Mr. Darrow. The State hospital formerly got their water supply from the St. Lawrence, and they suffered so severely from typhoid, owing to the pollution by the city, that they changed their water supply to the city supply.

Mr. Tawney. How far is the hospital from the city of Ogdensburg?

Mr. Darrow. It is a part of the city of Ogdensburg, but it is probably 2 or 3 miles below the center of the city.

Mr. Tawney. How many people are there in that institution?

Mr. Darrow. Two thousand, or a little over.

Mr. Tawney. What is the width of the St. Lawrence River here in this vicinity?

Mr. Darrow. It is about a mile and a quarter.

Mr. Powell. Do you have daily examinations of the water in order to ascertain its purity?

Mr. Darrow. Yes; our superintendent can give you all details as to that.

Mr. Powell. It is practically free from bacteria?

Mr. Darrow. Yes; practically so.

Mr. Tawney. What supervision is exercised by the State board of health over your water supply and the health conditions?

Mr. Darrow. It was put in entirely under their supervision and protection, and the health officer takes samples of water from the taps throughout the city at any place he desires, and those samples are submitted to test at Albany.

Mr. Tawney. Does the State board of health have any voice in the management or supervision of your plant?

Mr. Darrow. I can not say as to that. There has never been any interference on their part.

Mr. Tawney. Do you make reports to the State board of health with respect to the purification of your water?

Mr. Darrow. No, sir. I understand, however, that if the plant goes wrong they have the power to come in and see that matters are corrected.

Mr. Tawney. In other words, they have the power to lock the stable after the horse is stolen?

Mr. Powell. You supply the material for the test and the State makes the test?

Mr. Darrow. We have our own laboratory that makes its own tests, and then the State board of health supplements those tests from time to time.

Mr. Powell. They take their own samples?

Mr. Darrow. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. Is there any State law in New York with respect to the discharge of raw sewage into rivers or running streams that you know of?

Mr. Darrow. Not that I am aware of.

Mr. Tawney. So every city or village or town is free to utilize the St. Lawrence River, or any other river on which it may be located, as an open sewer?

Mr. Darrow. That seems to be the case; at least, they practice it. I know that where shallow streams have been used and it has been a palpable nuisance that they have applied for injunctions and restraining orders on account of its being a nuisance.

Mr. Tawney. What is your opinion with respect to the wisdom of utilizing these running streams as open sewers? Do you think cities of some considerable size should be prohibited from discharging raw sewage into streams where cities below are dependent upon the same stream for their water for domestic and sanitary uses?

Mr. Darrow. I think they should be prohibited from doing so. I think that all pollution of all streams should be prohibited. I think that it is not only a menace to the public health, but it is a great economic loss.

Mr. Tawney. That is the judgment of all the sanitary experts and engineers that we have had before us throughout this entire investigation, and I am very glad to know that you corroborate their views.

Mr. Powell. You are opposed to depositing raw sewage into a stream entirely?

Mr. Darrow. I certainly am. Of course, I think it is an evil that has got to be overcome slowly.

Mr. Tawney. Yes; but ultimately it will have to come.

Mr. Darrow. Ultimately it will have to come; yes.

Mr. Mignault. Then, your opinion is that cities should be forced to treat their sewage?

Mr. Darrow. Just as speedily as it can be accomplished. I think it is on a par with garbage collection; that it should be done, and that eventually cities will find that it is a source of income instead of a source of expense.

Mr. Gardner. Is there any other gentleman from Ogdensburg who wishes to be heard now, or who has anything to offer on the subject?

(There was no response.)

Mr. Gardner. If not, we will proceed to hear the representatives of the next town who appear before us.

(There was no response.)

Mr. Tawney. Is there anyone else from any other city or town on the St. Lawrence in this vicinity who desires to be heard on this subject?

(There was no response.)

Mr. Tawney. Dr. McCullough, have you or Mr. Dallyn anything to offer with respect to this St. Lawrence district?

Dr. McCullough. For my own part, I do not think so. I think all we have to say about it is set out in the report.

Mr. Tawney. You are the head of the health service in the Province of Ontario?

Dr. McCullough. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. I want these gentlemen present to know that you are the head of the health service in the Province of Ontario, and that Mr. Dallyn is the sanitary engineer of the Province.

Mr. Darrow. I think something ought to be done with the State of New York, because all of these plans for sewerage in the boundary waters are approved by the State of New York. The institutions owned by the State of New York are running their sewage into the boundary waters.

Mr. Tawney. The State boards of health, I think all of them, have been very cordially in sympathy with the investigation into this matter which the commission has been conducting for the last three years, and I do not apprehend that any recommendations that the commission may finally make to the two Governments, with respect to it, will be opposed by the State, judging from the expressions we have had from them. If there is nothing further, the hearing will be considered closed, and the commission will go into executive session for the purpose of considering some other matters that we intend to take up at this time.

(The commission then went into executive session and the hearing adjourned.)