HEARINGS OF THE INTERNATIONAL JOINT COMMISSION IN RE REMEDIES FOR THE POLLUTION OF BOUNDARY WATERS. (continued 2)

Mr. Tawney. Is there anyone present from Tonawanda or North Tonawanda? Lackawanna, I understand, was represented here this morning. Perhaps the representative of the State board of health, Mr. Chairman, will have something to say this afternoon.

Dr. Clark. Is there any particular question you wanted to ask with reference to Tonawanda or North Tonawanda?

Mr. Tawney. We wanted to know if the suggestions made in the report are satisfactory?

Dr. Clark. I do not know whether they have any representative here or not.

Mr. Tawney. They were notified, and they can not complain that the commission did not give them an opportunity to be heard.

Dr. Clark. You spoke about the chlorination of water. I think one of the most remarkable instances of reduction of typhoid fever in treating water with chlorine gas was manifested in the city of Lockport. Getting water from the same source for the 12 months before they used the chlorination process they had 53 cases of typhoid fever, and in the 7 months after chlorination of the water in the following year they had 3 cases. The Tonawanda, North Tonawanda, and Lockport intakes are all in practically the same thread of water.

Mr. Tawney. What effect has chlorination upon the potability of the water?

Dr. Clark. There is a difference of opinion with regard to that. A great many people in Buffalo complained of the chlorine tasting in the water before the chlorine was ever put into it. After it was put in they did not complain. Dr. Fronczak received dozens of letters asking that they stop using chlorine when there was no chlorine whatever being used. The amount of chlorine that is necessary to destroy pathogenic life can not be tasted.

Speaking of this surface-water drainage I think that is a question that applies more largely and more directly to smaller communities. It is well known that in some of the rural communities there have occurred some of the greatest typhoid-fever epidemics that we have ever had. In Plymouth, Pa., there occurred one of the greatest typhoid-fever epidemics that the world has ever seen. A little trout stream was contaminated by a patient that came in there. The discharges were simply not disinfected by the physician or the nurse, but were thrown out upon the ground, and when the spring rains came a serious epidemic occurred. An epidemic through surface contamination occurred at Ithaca. I think it applies more to rural communities. The State Department of Health of New York has recommended the chlorination process, and I think it has been proven beyond any peradventure that if the apparatus is carefully watched and the proper amount of gas is liberated into the water it is almost a sure preventive of typhoid fever, but an apparatus such as is manufactured now becomes corrupted to a certain extent, and unless cylinders are provided for weighing the chlorine you can not rely on the automatic weighing. Through the North Tonawanda intake recently we had quite a number of cases of typhoid fever, and by positive demonstration we discovered that they were using less than half the amount of chlorine they were supposed to use because the treating apparatus did not work.

Mr. Tawney. The State Board of Health of New York has had this report of the consulting sanitary engineer now for some two months for study. Have you given any study to the problems that are discussed in that report?

Dr. Clark. That would be a matter beyond my jurisdiction. It would be taken up entirely by the engineer division of the department at Albany.

Mr. Tawney. Do you know whether or not they have studied those problems?

Dr. Clark. Located here, I have charge of five counties in western New York. I represent the department locally, but I am not connected very much with the Albany office.

Mr. Powell. Prof. Phelps, I would like to have you bring out clearly before the gentlemen present the object and policy in making your studies. It was not with the idea, I presume, of imposing on the city of Buffalo or the city of Detroit any particular system, but it was to show to both communities that the result you thought advisable could be worked out at a certain cost, and if they could work them out more cheaply than that it is not your purpose to interfere with them. Was that your idea?

Prof. Phelps. Yes, sir.

Mr. Powell. That is one object. The other was in the capacity of an adviser to point out some feasible method by which it can be done if they choose to adopt it, and I understand you to say that they might, by further study, reduce the cost or make changes in particular features of the scheme which might be more feasible than even the scheme which you have recommended?

Prof. Phelps. Yes, sir.

(Thereupon, at 1 o’clock p. m., the commission took a recess until 3 o’clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

The commission reconvened at the expiration of the recess.

Mr. Tawney. Gentlemen, the principal purpose of the session this afternoon is to afford an opportunity to the representatives of any of the cities and towns in the vicinity of Buffalo that were not present this morning to appear at this time and be heard in their own behalf with respect to the report of the consulting engineers. Tonawanda and North Tonawanda are two of the principal towns, I believe, that were not represented this morning. Is there anyone now present representing those communities? If there is no one to be heard, I do not know of anything further.

It is the wish of the commission to have a conference before leaving Buffalo, if possible, with the mayor and the members of the city council on this subject, with a view to seeing just what can be done to facilitate the matter of their considering and reporting to the commission their views with respect to the remedies that are proposed by our consulting engineer. I understand that they are engaged officially this afternoon in the council chamber.

(Upon the arrival from the council chamber of the members of the city council the commission went into executive session.)

International Joint Commission, Detroit, Mich., Monday, June 26, 1916.

The commission met at 10 o’clock a. m.

Mr. Gardner presided.

Mr. Gardner. Gentlemen, in calling this meeting to order I think I can truly say that the International Joint Commission obtain as much pleasure in coming here to Detroit at this time as it is possible for any body of men to receive that are engaged in trying to analyze and work out to a practical solution a question of the nature of the one that brings us here. We are especially glad because of the good spirit that has been manifested by the people of Detroit and this community in times gone by.

As you know, the two Governments referred to this commission for determination the question as to whether or not the boundary waters or waters flowing across the boundary were being polluted in contravention of the treaty, in which they agreed that the waters on neither side of the line should be polluted to the injury of health or property on the other. The commission in determining the first question of the reference employed that eminent bacteriologist, Dr. Allen J. McLaughlin, who made the investigations. Early in 1914 the commission issued a progress report in which it was very clearly set forth that the waters along some portions of the boundary were being seriously and grossly polluted. Following that the commission employed Prof. Earle B. Phelps in reference to the second part of the reference, which requires this commission to report to the two Governments—

In what way or manner, whether by the construction and operation of suitable drainage canals or plants at convenient points or otherwise, is it possible and advisable to remedy or prevent the pollution of these waters, and by what means or arrangement can the proper construction or operation of remedial or preventive works, or a system or method of rendering these waters sanitary and suitable for domestic and other uses, be best secured and maintained in order to secure the adequate protection and development of all interests involved on both sides of the boundary, and to fill the obligations undertaken in Article IV of the waterways treaty of January 11, 1909, between the United States and Great Britain, in which it is agreed that the waters therein defined as boundary waters and waters flowing across the boundary shall not be polluted on either side to the injury of health or property on the other.

Prof. Phelps completed his work some two months ago, and copies of the report have been submitted to the authorities of the city of Detroit and the other municipalities involved in this investigation. The commission thought it advisable, before issuing its final report to the two Governments, to come here and have a conference with you to see in what way, if any, there is going to be any serious disagreement in regard to the projects submitted by Prof. Phelps. I say projects, because he has submitted in five different methods or plans his ideas as to how this result can be best obtained. We have come here this morning with the expectation that you will take up these several projects and discuss them with the commission to show wherein, if in any way, we differ and whether or not such differences can be reconciled.

Before proceeding with the discussion of these several projects I will ask the secretary to read the call for the meeting.

(The secretaries then read the notice of the meeting to be held at Detroit which was sent to interested municipalities and officials in the United States and Canada, together with copies of the report of the consulting sanitary engineer of the commission, and also the list of municipalities and officials to whom said notice and report were sent.

The notice and list are as follows:)

NOTICE.

May 15, 1916.

Dear Sir: I have the honor to inform you that the International Joint Commission of the United States and Canada will meet at Detroit on the 26th day of June, beginning at 10 a. m., for the purpose of finally hearing those interested upon the question of remedies for the pollution of boundary waters. You are cordially invited to be present, together with your engineers, appropriate heads of municipal departments, and any others who may be interested.

I have sent you under separate cover several copies of the report of the commission’s consulting sanitary engineer upon remedial measures, and have also sent a copy to your clerk. I will be glad to supply additional copies if desired. Will you kindly acknowledge receipt of this letter and the copies of the report.

Through the courtesy of the city of Detroit the hearing will be held in the Detroit city hall.

Very respectfully, —— ——, Secretary.

MUNICIPALITIES AND OFFICIALS TO WHOM NOTICE WAS SENT.

The mayor, Detroit, Mich.

The mayor, Port Huron, Mich.

The mayor, St. Clair, Mich.

The mayor, Marine City, Mich.

The mayor, Algonac, Mich.

The mayor, River Rouge, Mich.

The mayor, Ford City, Mich.

The mayor, Ecorse, Mich.

The mayor, Wyandotte, Mich.

The mayor, Trenton, Mich.

The Boards of Health of the States of New York, Ohio, and Michigan.

The Lake Carriers’ Association.

The mayor, Sarnia, Ontario.

The mayor, Amherstburg, Ontario.

The mayor, Windsor, Ontario.

The mayor, Ojibway, Ontario.

The mayor, Mooretown, Ontario.

The mayor, Corunna, Ontario.

The Dominion Marine Association.

The Canadian Pacific Railway Co.

(The chairman specifically mentioning each municipality in the above list, called for the names of persons appearing in their behalf, as well as the names of any others who desired to enter an appearance, and the following appearances were announced:)

APPEARANCES.

Prof. Earle B. Phelps, Washington, D. C., United States Public Health Service, consulting sanitary engineer of the commission.

H. C. McRae, Baltimore, Md., assistant to Prof. Phelps.

Leslie C. Frank, Washington, D. C., United States Public Health Service, representing the Federal Health Service in relation to steamboat pollution.

Dr. J. W. S. McCullough, Toronto, Canada, Provincial Board of Health of Ontario.

F. A. Dallyn, Toronto, Canada, sanitary engineer, Provincial Board of Health of Ontario.

W. J. Stewart, Ottawa, chief hydrographer of Canada.

Hon. Oscar B. Marx, Detroit, Mich., mayor.

Edward D. Rich, Detroit, Mich., State sanitary engineer.

James W. Follin, Detroit, Mich., assistant to the State sanitary engineer.

E. L. Waterman, Detroit, Mich., assistant to the State sanitary engineer.

George H. Fenkell, Detroit, Mich., Department of Public Works of Detroit.

Clarence W. Hubbell, consulting engineer, of Detroit.

John F. McKinlay, Detroit, Mich., secretary Detroit Board of Health.

Henry Vaughan, Detroit, Mich., epidemiologist, Detroit Board of Health.

R. U. Pryer, director of laboratories, Detroit Board of Health.

Dr. William H. Price, Detroit, Mich., health officer, Detroit.

Col. William Livingstone, Detroit, Mich., representing the Great Lakes Carriers’ Association.

Morris Knowles, of Pittsburgh, Pa., representing the Great Lakes Carriers’ Association.

A. H. Dittoe, chief engineer, Ohio State Board of Health, representing State Board of Health of Ohio and also the Great Lakes Pure Water Association.

Francis King, K. C., Kingston, Ontario, representing the Dominion Marine Association.

Alexander Adams, Ecorse, Mich.

Russell A. Murdock, C. E., Ecorse, Mich.

Mason L. Brown, River Rouge, Mich.

William G. Perry, Ford City, Mich.

Dr. W. Lambert, Wyandotte, Mich., mayor.

H. L. Blomshield, C. E., Trenton, Mich.

Max Jennings, St. Clair, Mich., mayor.

W. M. Barron, superintendent of waterworks, St. Clair, Mich.

Prof. C. L. Weil, C. E., St. Clair, Mich.

William Wollatt, Walkerville, Ontario, president Essex Border Utilities Commission, representing Ford City, Walkerville, Windsor, Sandwich, Sandwich West, and Ojibway, Ontario.

C. J. Montrieul, Ford City, Ontario, mayor.

A. W. Jackson, Windsor, Ontario, mayor.

M. E. Brian, Windsor, Ontario, city engineer.

Adolph Sloman, Detroit, Mich.

Mr. Fenkell. Mr. Chairman, we were notified of the meeting to-day, but we had no notice of the time at which the meeting would be held.

Mr. Tawney. The notice that was sent to the mayor stated that the meeting would be held at 10 o’clock a. m.

Mr. Fenkell. The mayor had been out of the city for several days, and about a week ago he came home sick. He has been ill in bed ever since. He hopes to be at the city hall some time to-day if possible. He intended to be here at the beginning of your meeting, and his absence is accounted for by his sickness.

Mr. Tawney. Well, he has relied, I presume, for his information upon the studies of those problems that were made by yourself and your assistants, has he not?

Mr. Fenkell. I may say that Mr. Hubbell’s report was turned over to the printers as soon as received. A copy of my letter transmitting the same to the council and the summary in his report were printed in the council proceedings. We have not received printed copies of his report yet. Mr. Hubbell, the engineer who made our investigation, told me this morning that he hoped to have copies by noon.

Mr. Tawney. Is Mr. Hubbell here?

Mr. Fenkell. He is not here. He will be here some time this morning. He came in and asked me what time the meeting would be held, and I told him that I had not heard, and he went out. That was about half an hour ago.

Mr. Gardner. What time do you use here, eastern or central time?

Mr. Fenkell. We use eastern time. I sent notices to the members of the board of health, the health officer, the sanitary engineer, members of the board of water commissioners, their secretary and general superintendent, the common council, members of the committee on health and city hospitals, members of the committee on sewers, Mr. Hubbell, and perhaps others. I told them of the meeting to be held to-day, but I did not state any time. Very likely a notice giving the time of the meeting at 10 o’clock was received in my office, but I do not remember seeing it. It is probably an oversight on my part.

Mr. Tawney. Mr. Rich, before beginning the hearings the commission would like to know what the relation of the State is to the public health and the sewage question of the city of Detroit. Has the State board of health supreme control?

Mr. Rich. That, Mr. Commissioner, is set forth in a law known as act 98 of the public acts of 1913, of which I think we furnished you a copy some two years ago.

Mr. Tawney. When we were here before?

Mr. Rich. Yes. As we understand it, that gives the State board of health authority to order whatever changes may be deemed necessary in any water in the State for purposes of public health.

Mr. Tawney. Has that authority been questioned heretofore by the city of Detroit?

Mr. Rich. Not in court. I do not know whether it has elsewhere or not.

Mr. Tawney. Mayor Marx, have you any information on that subject?

Mr. Marx. I do not recall any.

Mr. Rich. The matter of Highland Park was involved to some extent, but that has been settled.

Mr. Tawney. So up to the present time under the existing law the State board of health has the power to order any remedial measures that it may deem necessary to protect the public health?

Mr. Rich. That is the way we understand the law, and that was the intention when it was passed. It has not been definitely tested in court yet.

Mr. Tawney. At the suggestion of the chair we will proceed to hear the representatives of the State of Michigan with respect to the remedies that are proposed by the consulting sanitary engineer of the commission. It is our understanding, Mr. Rich, that your office has been giving considerable attention and study to the various alternative plans proposed by the consulting sanitary engineer of the commission. I think it would be advisable to hear the representatives of the State first.

Mr. Rich. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the commission, I regret to say that we have not given the alternative plans very much consideration. We have not had the report long enough to be able to do so. It seems to me that the function of the office which I represent is to judge not so much the economical features that arise with respect to the various questions coming before us as the sanitary features, although we are always glad to give the municipalities what assistance we can in the economical solution of their problems. But we understand that the law first contemplates our passing upon the plans from the sanitary standpoint and giving our opinion as to whether or not they will produce the results desired, with perhaps not very much regard to the cost, although as engineers we could hardly pass by that important feature as a matter of conscience.

We have been very much interested in the studies being made, and, in fact, have done quite a little in the way of investigation ourselves since the termination of the work of this commission. We have in progress now a report of our studies of the municipalities below Detroit, having for its object the determination of the factors entering into the production of the abnormal typhoid death rate which has existed for a number of years. A careful study has been made of each particular case so far as we were able to find it.

Mr. Powell. How long before your report will be printed?

Mr. Rich. Probably two or three months. After that we expect to proceed to remedial measures at once; that is, the different municipalities will probably be called before the State board of health for a hearing, giving them a chance to express their opinion as to what should be done and what they are willing to do; and if they are not willing to do anything, or if they seem to be too slow, undoubtedly the State board of health would set a time within which they must conform to its orders. That has been done to some extent already with the city of Monroe, and proceedings are going forward as rapidly as we could expect there for a purified water supply. Some steps are being taken looking to the treatment of sewage. We hope that similar results may be obtained in the other municipalities below Detroit.

Mr. Powell. Have you adopted any standard for purification of sewage?

Mr. Rich. We feel that we are indebted to this commission for a very fine determination of that point, and I might say that we are practically relying upon that entirely.

Mr. Powell. Then you agree with us in that?

Mr. Rich. We have accepted the views of your consulting engineers almost entirely. We feel that it was very wise indeed.

Mr. Tawney. Have you gone sufficiently into the proposed remedies for sewage disposal to enable you to express any opinion whatever with respect to the efficiency of the remedies proposed by our consulting engineer?

Mr. Rich. In a general way; yes. From what we have been able to learn with regard to the proposition for screening sewage and afterwards treating it with a disinfectant we would not feel sufficient confidence in that to recommend it. The other methods proposed we would concur in. We concur in the judgment of the engineers with reference to the methods, but regarding the particular location of plants we are unable to express our opinion at the present time owing to the fact that we have not gone into that as carefully as we would like to do. In fact, I hardly think we would have time to go into it enough to feel sufficiently justified in expressing a very definite opinion as to the particular location of plants; in other words, as to the economics of the question, but we do feel like approving fully the views of Prof. Phelps, Mr. Hubbell, and Mr. McRae in these matters. I think they will agree with me that screening is hardly to be relied upon.

Mr. Tawney. Have you given any consideration to the proposed consolidation of the various villages around Detroit into one general or Detroit metropolitan sanitary district?

Mr. Rich. I have given some personal thought to it, but there have been no steps taken as yet looking toward a special investigation of that matter. I am very much interested in it. I am at the present time very much in favor of a thorough study as to the feasibility of such an organization. I believe it is the only feasible solution of the whole problem.

Mr. Tawney. From an economical standpoint, do you think it would be advantageous both to the city and to the surrounding municipalities?

Mr. Rich. I do, yes; and I think it would be advantageous from every standpoint.

Mr. Tawney. Are you conducting your studies, then, with reference to the consolidated sewage district suggested by the consulting sanitary engineer?

Mr. Rich. No; we are not. We have not gotten as far ahead as that yet. We are simply studying the present condition, and whatever we recommend will probably be of such a nature that no great amount of money would be lost if consolidation should be effected later, but it would be more immediately available for the alleviation of existing conditions.

Mr. Tawney. Are you contemplating any improvement in the matter of sewage disposal for the city of Detroit independent of any recommendations of this commission?

Mr. Rich. No; we are not.

Mr. Tawney. Have you made any bacteriological examination of the waters of the Detroit River independent of the examination which was made by our bacteriologists?

Mr. Rich. We have made some this summer in connection with the water as it is supplied to the other municipalities, not making a study of the river as a river, but, taking it as it comes through the means of these municipalities below, we have made some studies.

Mr. Tawney. How does your examination compare with the examination of the cross sections of the river made by our bacteriologists?

Mr. Rich. They could not be compared, because all the water that is taken from these intakes comes from a single point in the river. We have not taken any samples in the river any more than last year we took some few samples from the western end of Lake Erie which coincided in a general way with the findings of the bacteriologists of this commission, except that our samples were taken at other points and showed what might be expected from theirs.

Mr. Tawney. As the chief State sanitary engineer, what would you say, Mr. Rich, as to the thoroughness and completeness of the work of the consulting engineers in their study of the problems that are involved here in the city of Detroit?

Mr. Rich. I think it has been very fine, indeed. I do not believe I could speak too enthusiastically upon that point. I am very much pleased, indeed, with the results obtained and the way in which the work was done, and that especially in connection with Mr. Hubbell’s work on the part of the city. It is a fine thing.

Mr. Magrath. You feel that we were justified in undertaking the work?

Mr. Rich. I do, indeed; and I think it is a great contribution to the future as indicating the way in which such problems ought to be attacked and worked out.

Mr. Powell. Have you given any consideration to the disposal of the sludge that would be the result of screening and sedimentation?

Mr. Rich. Not any more than our general reading of the subject. We have not made any studies of local conditions. Sludge obtained from fine screening would probably need to be disposed of by incineration or else taken to a long distance from the city and buried; but probably that would be too much for the city of Detroit.

Mr. Powell. The city of London has installed, and the city of Glasgow, Scotland, was about to install when the war broke out, a system which makes it a decided success from an economical standpoint. They produce a lot of chemicals from the sludge. You have not given any attention to that?

Mr. Rich. You do not know what they produce?

Mr. Powell. Yes; some of the things they produce are gasoline, carbolic acid, and a pitch. I think there are nine by-products that they dispose of.

Mr. Rich. No; I am not familiar with the details of that.

Mr. Tawney. I understand you to say, Mr. Rich, that, while you have read the different alternative plans or remedies proposed by our consulting sanitary engineer, you have not given them sufficient study to determine what, in your judgment, would be the most desirable and the most economical in practice?

Mr. Rich. No; I do not think so.

Mr. Tawney. You do not desire to express an opinion on either one of them?

Mr. Rich. Only that I think we would be justified in saying that we believe the tankage method, followed by sterilization, would be superior to screening methods.

Mr. Mignault. That is, you prefer the process of sedimentation to that of fine screening?

Mr. Rich. That is it. That is as far as we would feel justified in going.

Mr. Tawney. Have you any opinion to express as to whether there should be one hour or two hours of sedimentation?

Mr. Rich. No. I think that would depend considerably upon the character of the sewage. We have made no tests whatever of the time required for the Detroit sewage. In fact, we have made no tests of any sort on the Detroit sewage.

Mr. Tawney. Have any of your assistants anything to offer independent of what you have set forth?

Mr. Rich. The two men who made the actual studies down the stream from here are present, and if you would like to hear from them at this time or at a future time they will be available. Mr. Follin had charge of the field work in the investigation at Ford City, Wyandotte, and Trenton.

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES W. FOLLIN, OF DETROIT, ASSISTANT TO THE STATE SANITARY ENGINEER.

Mr. Follin. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the survey which Mr. Rich has explained to you and which Mr. Waterman and I made at Ford City, Wyandotte, and Trenton, was made primarily to determine the conditions existing in connection with the high typhoid death rate in those communities and to determine what should be done to remedy those conditions. I have here a digest of the work as we planned it and carried it on which I will go over with you. The necessity for these surveys was shown by the high typhoid death rates in these communities.

Mr. Tawnet. What were those death rates?

Mr. Follin. They are given in this statement which I will read:

A sanitary survey in the villages of Ford and Trenton and in the city of Wyandotte has recently been made by E. L. Waterman and J. W. Follin under the direction of the State sanitary engineer and by authorization of the State board of health. The necessity for such surveys was shown by a study of the typhoid fever death rates in these communities. This study disclosed the following facts:

In Ford the average death rate during the period of 1904-1915, inclusive, was 364.5; the maximum was 849, occurring in 1907; the minimum was 126, occurring in 1908.

In Wyandotte the average death rate during the period of 1900-1915, inclusive, was 87.2; the maximum was 144, occurring in 1913; the minimum was 12, occurring in 1911.

For Trenton the average death rate during the period 1904-1915, inclusive, was 94.8; the maximum was 243, occurring in 1913; the minimum was 0, occurring in 1905, 1910, 1912, and 1914.

The objects of these surveys were to determine in each community—

1. The general sanitary condition.

2. The quality of both private and public water supplies.

3. The adequacy of present sewerage systems and the extent of their use.

4. The amount of typhoid fever and probable reasons for its presence.

The surveys were begun on February 15 and completed on May 1, 1916. They were carried on simultaneously in each community. Frequent bacteriological tests on the public and private supplies were made, the location of existing sewers was determined, also the number and character of connections to them, the history of the typhoid-fever cases occurring during 1914, 1915, and the first four months of 1916 was ascertained. A study of the data collected shows that the following conditions exist:

The village of Ford obtains its water supply from the Detroit River through an intake located at the harbor line. This water is supplied to the consumers without treatment. A 12-inch and 42-inch sewer empty into the river above this intake and a 36-inch sewer discharges at a point some distance below. A private sewer from the industrial plant of the Michigan Alkali Co. discharges into the river at a point about 50 feet downstream from the water intake. Float measurements made at a time when a southeast wind was blowing showed that the effluent from this sewer was undoubtedly carried past the water intake. The results of bacteriological analyses on the village water showed that it was badly contaminated at all times and at no time fit for drinking purposes. The histories of typhoid-fever cases in Ford showed that in practically all cases the infection was obtained from the village water supply. There was a remarkable absence of secondary or contact cases. The general use of outside closets which discharge into the sewer, but which are not provided with flushing devices, is to be deplored.

The city of Wyandotte obtains its public water supply from the Detroit River, the intake pipes extending out a distance of approximately 150 feet from the shore. In March, 1914, hypochlorite of lime treatment of the water was begun. Our bacteriological analyses show that out of 35 tests the treated water was satisfactory in only 15 instances, or 43 per cent of the time. The city sewerage system has four points of outlet—all into the river, but at points below the water intake. Many of the connections to the sewers are of the same nonflushing, outside closet type that is prevalent in Ford. The typhoid-fever case histories all point to the city water supply as the probable source of infection. There are a few private water supplies which are obtained from wells. An examination of these supplies shows that most of them are uncontaminated at present.

The village of Trenton gets its water supply from the Detroit River, the intake pipes extending out about 200 feet from the shore line. This water is supplied to the consumers without treatment. Bacteriological examinations show that this water is polluted at all times and absolutely unfit for drinking purposes. There are many private wells in Trenton and nearly all of them show sewage contamination. This is probably due to the fact that there is no general sewerage system in the village and consequently outdoor privies are common. Where plumbing has been installed the sewage is carried to open drains in most cases, where direct connection to the river is not feasible. There are 20 private sewers emptying into the river above the water intake, and the village authorities have recently decided to add a public sewer to this number. General sanitary conditions in the village are exceedingly poor and the village authorities seem very unconcerned when these conditions are called to their attention. The study of the typhoid-fever cases occurring in Trenton during 1914 and 1915 shows that a majority of the cases are due to the polluted public water supply, but that some may be attributed to general insanitary conditions, such as open drains, outside privies, and polluted well supplies.

REMEDIAL MEASURES.

Filtration of the public water supplies is necessary in all these localities. It is advisable to install intercepting sewers in Fort which will carry all sewage to a point near the southern boundary of the village where a treatment plant consisting of Imhoff tanks followed by chlorination should be installed. This will protect the Ford water supply from contamination by sewage from the village and also lighten the load on the Wyandotte water filtration plant. Better raw water can be secured at Wyandotte and Ford by the extension of the intake pipes into the river channel. The best location for the intakes can only be determined by a careful investigation of the quality of the water at different points in the cross section.

At Trenton filtration of the public water supply and a general sewerage system which will properly sewer the entire village and carry the sewage to a point well below the water intake are the essential measures immediately necessary for the proper safeguarding of the public health. As Trenton is the farthermost downstream community of importance, we do not feel that a treatment plant is necessary at the present time. However, we shall insist on a design for the sewerage system which will contemplate treatment of the sewage should such treatment become necessary in the future.

Below Trenton on the Michigan side of the river we have only one city of any size; in fact, only one community which takes its water supply from water which is affected by the Detroit River. That is the city of Monroe, of about 7,500 people. It is situated on the River Raisin, which obtains its water from the western end of Lake Erie. The studies made by the engineers of this commission have disclosed the fact that the sewage of the Detroit River contaminates the waters of Lake Erie to a point as far as the islands which separate that portion of the lake from the rest of Lake Erie.

Mr. Tawney. How many miles is it?

Mr. Follin. I do not know exactly.

Mr. Tawney. About 18 miles, is it not?

Mr. Follin. It is probably a little farther than that. Last summer we made an investigation with respect to typhoid fever conditions at Monroe and found that although not started by the city water, the city water then did spread an epidemic of typhoid fever in the town. We made some investigation of the waters immediately in the western end of the lake next to their waterworks intake and found that they were not of sufficient quality to enable the water there to be made fit for domestic purposes by chlorination alone. We accordingly called a meeting of the State board of health, at which the officials of Monroe and the officials of the Monroe Water Co., a private company, were called in for consultation. They expressed their willingness to go ahead and complete the filtration works for the city. Those details are now being worked out. No definite order was made by the board of health in that instance because it was not deemed necessary.

So our statement that possibly the village of Trenton alone need to immediately treat its sewage is based on our local conditions along the Michigan shore and not on any study of conditions that might exist on the other side. But our recommendations to them are that their plans be so drawn that treatment works can be installed when necessary. Trenton is now very seriously in need of the installation of a good public water supply, and we would certainly endeavor to hasten the time when they can have such a supply.

Mr. Tawney. All the sewage of these cities that you have mentioned is deposited in the Detroit River in a raw state?

Mr. Follin. In a raw state; yes, sir. There is no treatment whatever.

Mr. Gardner. They are all below the city of Detroit?

Mr. Follin. They are all below Detroit.

Mr. Tawney. You are a sanitary engineer, are you not?

Mr. Follin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. You are a graduate of the State university at Ann Arbor?

Mr. Follin. I am a graduate of the State university at Ann Arbor; yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. How long have you been in practice?

Mr. Follin. I have been with Mr. Rich, at Lansing, for one year and have been graduated three years.

Mr. Tawney. Have you given any study at all to the report of our consulting sanitary engineer in regard to remedies for the pollution of the Detroit River?

Mr. Follin. I have given only general consideration to it in the same way that Mr. Rich has, realizing that your problem was——

Mr. Tawney. From the study that you have given to it, what have you to say as to the thoroughness of the work that was done?

Mr. Follin. We consider that the work has been very thoroughly carried out, and that the recommendations made are very feasible.

Mr. Tawney. Does the State Board of Health of Michigan agree with the sanitary experts generally that no raw sewage should be deposited in any stream that supplies other municipalities or localities with water for domestic and sanitary purposes?

Mr. Follin. Personally we feel very strongly that way, but we realize that those opinions can not be forced within a very short time onto the municipalities in Michigan; but such an ideal condition must come slowly.

Mr. Tawney. What have you to say as to the standard of purification recommended by the consulting engineers in this progress report?

Mr. Follin. I do not feel that I am in a position to comment on that, although from the little study I have given the matter I believe it is very reasonable. I might explain one other thing. Our reason for studying only Ford City, Wyandotte, and Trenton below Detroit on this side of the river and not studying the river at River Rouge and Ecorse was because the Detroit water supply is furnished to River Rouge and Ecorse and that the river supply is first used below Detroit at Ford City. It was our intention to first study those conditions because they related to the purity of the water in the Detroit River.

Mr. Powell. I understood you to say that in one of these municipalities in which the water was treated it was found afterwards on examination to be unfit for drinking purposes.

Mr. Follin. Yes; I did say that. During the course of our investigations we made 35 examinations of the treated water at Wyandotte, covering a period of several months. During that time we found only 15 of those samples to show the water fit for drinking purposes only 35 per cent of the time.

Mr. Powell. That is, after it had undergone the process of sterilization?

Mr. Follin. After it had undergone the treatment of hypochloride of lime.

Mr. Powell. Have you figures as to the condition before it underwent the treatment?

Mr. Follin. We have those figures. In no case was the raw water fit for drinking purposes without treatment.

Mr. Powell. Can you give the result of your bacteriological examination?

Mr. Follin. We have a report now under preparation which will give these figures in detail, and we hope to have that out within several weeks.

Mr. Powell. You can not speak from memory?

Mr. Follin. Yes; the raw water was not fit.

Mr. Powell. But that is a general statement. Do you remember how many B. coli to the cubic centimeter there were?

Mr. Follin. We have not that data with us; no, sir.

Mr. Tawney. Will your other assistant have the figures?

Mr. Rich. I would like to have Mr. Waterman speak with reference to the attitude taken by the municipalities which we investigated. The statement read by Mr. Follin is the advance sheet of our report. It is the conclusions that are come to in our report. The report will contain more than this contains, but this is a digest of what will be the findings.

STATEMENT OF MR. E. L. WATERMAN.

Mr. Waterman. I can not add very much to the statements which Mr. Rich and Mr. Follin have already made, but I would like to say something in regard to the attitude which the village and city authorities in the places which we have investigated have taken toward these surveys. We found that at Ford village the authorities were very enthusiastic toward this investigation. They evidently wanted to learn just what the conditions were, and they were eager to get our opinions as to the means of correcting the conditions now existing. At Wyandotte the city authorities showed some enthusiasm, but we did not find them as enthusiastic as we felt they should have been over an investigation of this kind. I might say that the city of Wyandotte has been struggling with the problem of public water supply for some eight years, and that during that time many bacteriological examinations and chemical examinations of the water have been made at the State board of health laboratory, and at one time a consulting engineer was employed to make preliminary plans for a water filtration plant; that this proposition was defeated by a vote of the city; and that since that time very little has been done. The only thing was the introduction of a hypochlorite of lime treatment in March, 1914. As already stated, our investigations showed that a hypochlorite treatment is not adequate to give the city of Wyandotte a safe water supply. In the village of Trenton, I am sorry to say, the attitude of the village authorities has been more unfavorable than favorable. They do not seem to realize the importance of improvements in the sanitary conditions, and we have met with very little cooperation from the authorities themselves. I think that this is about all that I can add to the statements already made.

Mr. Gardner. Do you think there is any growing interest in this matter?

Mr. Waterman. I should say that in Ford village and Wyandotte there is undoubtedly a growing interest, and that among a very few people in Trenton, that you might call thinking people, there is a growing interest, but the general attitude is not favorable.

Mr. Gardner. They are not all thinking people.

Mr. Powell. There is one point you are clear on, and that is that chlorination is not sufficient for the purification of the water down there for drinking purposes?

Mr. Waterman. Yes.

Mr. Powell. It would have to be supplemented or preceded by sedimentation or screening?

Mr. Waterman. You are speaking of the water itself?

Mr. Powell. Yes.

Mr. Waterman. We feel that filtration of the water supply is necessary, followed by chlorination.

Mr. Tawney. Is this contamination of the waters of these various places due to the sewage which they themselves deposit in the water raw, or is it due to the pollution that is put in above raw, that goes farther out in the stream?

Mr. Waterman. In the case of Ford City, I would say that the sewage of the village itself undoubtedly contaminates an already polluted supply, and the same is true of Trenton, although undoubtedly the pollution which enters the river from the city of Detroit is more or less mitigated before reaching Trenton. At Wyandotte the sewers are all below the water intake, but the sewers from the village of Ford are above and undoubtedly pollute that supply.

Mr. Tawney. How far above?

Mr. Waterman. I would estimate the nearest one was about a mile above the intake, and there are two others within a distance of 2 miles from the intake, both entering directly into the river at the harbor or dock line——

Mr. Tawney. And the intake at Wyandotte is how far out?

Mr. Waterman. The intake at Wyandotte is approximately 150 feet out, so that whatever pollution comes in at this point 1 mile or 2 miles above would probably be diffused that distance from the shore at least, probably more.

Mr. Mignault. What is exactly the position taken by the citizens of Trenton?

Mr. Waterman. I do not think the citizens, as citizens, have had very much opportunity thus far to express themselves on the question. It is really the village authorities.

Mr. Mignault. Well, substitute in my question “the village authorities” for “the citizens”; what position do they take exactly?

Mr. Waterman. They take the position that everything is all right down there, and that there is no reason in the world why they should not go on putting in sewage in the water.

Mr. Mignault. They are not impressed by the statistics which have been read here.

Mr. Waterman. Those statistics have not yet been presented to them.

Mr. Tawney. Nevertheless they have been informed of those facts.

Mr. Waterman. Yes; they have been informed of the facts, and the majority of the village council have, by their acts, shown that they do not appreciate those statistics which have been brought to their notice.

Mr. Mignault. What exactly were the powers of the State board with regard to a city like Trenton, in order to compel it, if necessary, to take the necessary measures for water purification or treatment of sewage?

Mr. Waterman. The powers of the State board, I think, have been outlined by Mr. Rich, and if I repeat, I am trying to repeat what he said, that the State board has the power to order any improvements in the sewage systems of the village necessary in the opinion of the State board for the betterment of public health.

Mr. Mignault. No such order has been given so far?

Mr. Waterman. No. We feel, and are rather certain, that such orders will be given, if necessary, after the completion and adoption of our present report.

Mr. Powell. I suppose they would rather run the risk of death than face the certainty of increased taxation.

Mr. Waterman. That seems to be the opinion, although one useful fact has been brought out by our investigations, and that is that the old residents of these towns and cities are, for the most part, immune to typhoid fever. It is the newcomers who come on, usually within six months time of taking up their residence there, who are liable to take it.

Mr. Powell. The old ones are immune.

Mr. Waterman. They have either had it some time in the past or have become so used to the water supply that the typhoid germs diffused into their system do not affect them at all.

Mr. Powell. There is such a thing as being immune from it.

Mr. Waterman. I think so.

Mr. Powell. I may say, Mr. Rich, as you are aware, the commission has had before it since August, 1914, the pollution investigation. We have carried on two distinct pieces of work. I am not looking for any compliments to the commission, but, as the representative of the State of Michigan, are you willing to go on record, first, as to the value and character of the work which we have done under the two branches of the investigation, and, second, the diligence and thoroughness with which both have been conducted?

Mr. Rich. I am heartily so. I believe that there has been no previous examination of this wide character and extent carried on anywhere—at least, none has come to my notice—and I feel that the work of the commission has been of great value to us in our work, not only in the specific material studied and the ground covered but in the general principles evolved from that study. We feel that we have been equipped with ammunition that is going to be very useful to us.

Mr. Tawney. You mean useful throughout the State?

Mr. Rich. Yes; and for all time to come, as assisting us in formulating our policy in a great many cases. We also feel that the investigation, after the first study, has been very thoroughly carried on, indeed. Mr. McRae’s studies here were prosecuted with keen insight into the requirements of the question. As far as speed is concerned, I do not well see how the results could have been obtained any more promptly than they have been. The only delays that I have been able to notice in the procedure from the start to the finish was while the material was in the printer’s hands, and I do not see how that could be construed as delay in the ordinary sense. There was the unavoidable wait for the material to be placed in such shape that it could be put before the people.

Mr. Tawney. Dr. McCullough, you represent the Province of Ontario, which has jurisdiction along the water front, has it not? Can you give the commission any opinion with respect to the work of the Province in connection with the subject and water purification on your side of the line?

Dr. McCullough. Would you like me to outline the policy of the Province?

Mr. Tawney. Yes. We have had the policy of the State on this side and it would be appropriate to have the policy of the Province of Ontario on the other side.

STATEMENT OF DR. J. W. S. McCULLOUGH, OF TORONTO.

Dr. McCullough. In the Province of Ontario the provincial board of health has control of the establishment of waterworks and water-purification works, sewage works, and sewage-disposal works of all kinds. No water plant can be established by any municipality or by any individual for public use unless the consent and approval of the provincial board of health, to which body all plans must be supplied, is obtained.

Mr. Gardner. How long has that condition existed?

Dr. McCullough. Since 1912; it exists in its present state since 1912. It did exist previously for some years, but not in a satisfactory condition. No municipality can raise money on debentures without the approval of the provincial board of health for works of the character I have mentioned, and we have further power to force extensions. We have also power, under certain circumstances, to allow the municipality to establish works of this kind and raise money without the consent of the people, and in a number of cases that has been done.

Mr. Gardner. Without limitation?

Dr. McCullough. Without the vote of the people and without any limitation.

Mr. Tawney. Except the exigency of the case.

Dr. McCullough. Yes; it is the policy of the board, of course, as a rule, not to interfere in that way, but to have the people vote on a money by-law. Now, there is another way a municipality can establish works of utility, and that is by having a two-thirds vote of the council. It is a sort of local improvement; that is, for extension of sewers.

Mr. Gardner. The provincial council?

Dr. McCullough. No; the municipal council.

Mr. Tawney. Has your board recently made any surveys for the purpose of ascertaining the conditions along the Detroit River on your side in regard to the villages or cities located there?

Dr. McCullough. We were concerned in making the first progress report. The Provincial Board of Health of Ontario, as you will remember, supplied laboratories.

Mr. Tawney. You were associated with Dr. McLaughlin in that—you and Mr. Dallyn?

Dr. McCullough. Yes.

Mr. Tawney. I thought it was well to get in the record the policy of the provincial board.

Dr. McCullough. The policy of the provincial board is, broadly speaking, along public-health lines. We are satisfied that the water supplies are accountable for a good deal of disease of an intestinal character, and it is our object to lessen the amount of pollution of the boundary waters as much as possible and have the waters purified as much as possible. Just recently we have been able to secure a purification plant at Niagara, on the Lake, where there is a military concentration camp, under an arrangement of this kind. The municipality is bearing half the expense and the Federal Government is bearing the other half, because it is such an important matter from the point of view of having the troops there supplied with good water.

Mr. Mignault. Is that water furnished to the municipality generally, or simply to the camp?

Dr. McCullough. At Niagara-on-the-Lake it is a municipal water supply. They simply pump it from the Niagara River and clarify it. It requires to be very heavily chlorinated, because it is badly polluted. Then, in addition to that, the military authorities have provided this year a portable violet-ray plant, whereby the water supplied for cooking and drinking purposes to the soldiers’ camp is purified.

Mr. Mignault. That is merely for the water supplied to the camp?

Dr. McCullough. Yes; but not that will be further improved by the town having a filtration plant, the cost of which will be borne jointly by the Federal Government and by the municipality.

Mr. Gardner. Do they take the water from above or below the Falls?

Dr. McCullough. Niagara-on-the-Lake is at the mouth of the river, away below the Falls; about 12 miles below the Falls.

Mr. Mignault. Some members of the commission had the advantage of seeing the filtration plant at the camp last week.

Dr. McCullough. That is the violet-ray plant. It does the work very well; but, of course, it is only a small affair.

Mr. Powell. There is filtration in connection with that?

Dr. McCullough. Oh, yes. That plant was designed by the engineer of the provincial board of health, and by him supplied to the military authorities.

Mr. Tawney. What is the standard of purity that your board of health follows?

Dr. McCullough. With regard to the sewage?

Mr. Tawney. Yes; standard of purification.

Dr. McCullough. We think that, for these international waters, there should be sedimentation and chlorination. We would be satisfied with that.

Mr. Tawney. The standard of purification is 90°, is it not?

Dr. McCullough. The standard as to purification for water——

Mr. Tawney. I mean for sewage. What is the standard for sewage?

Dr. McCullough. I think it is something like that laid down in the report.

Mr. Tawney. I wanted to find out if it corresponded with the standard established by the engineers in this report.

Dr. McCullough. We would be satisfied with that; but we are not satisfied to confine it to two areas, as proposed in the report to-day.

Mr. Tawney. Two areas?

Dr. McCullough. That is the Detroit area and the Buffalo area. We think there are other points to which the investigation and purification should extend.

Mr. Tawney. It should not be limited to these two areas?

Dr. McCullough. No.

Mr. Mignault. Would you kindly say at what points on the international waterways you consider these methods should be employed?

Dr. McCullough. I think at all the points indicated in the first progress report. In that report this commission says that the waters are polluted to the detriment of either one or the other side. We think the commission should stick to that, and carry along its work to include all of these areas.

Mr. Magrath. You are just reiterating the position you took at Washington?

Dr. McCullough. Exactly, sir.

Mr. Tawney. Mr. Dallyn, you are the chief engineer of the Provincial Board of Health of Ontario, are you not?

Mr. Dallyn. Yes.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. A. DALLYN, OF TORONTO.

Mr. Dallyn. I am the provincial sanitary engineer, attached to the Provincial Board of Health of Ontario.

Mr. Tawney. Have you anything to add to what Dr. McCullough has said regarding the policy of the Province with respect to the purification of sewage and water for domestic and sanitary purposes in these boundary waters?

Mr. Dallyn. There is one matter, I think, that is worthy of further note, and that is as to whether it would be any advantage to either the municipalities, the Provinces, or the States, to be restricted, as they are in the report of the commission, to a specific method of meeting the commission’s requirements. There seems to be some doubt as to the proper way to interpret the reference—as to whether the commission is supposed to report some definite way in which a standard is to be attained or whether the two Governments meant that a prescribed standard could be reached at a reasonable expense through at least one method. Speaking as an engineer, not as the engineer of the Province, I would say we do not want to be hampered by any restriction in that respect on the part of the commission. We do need a standard of purity for sewage effluents. It is very necessary. We can hardly advance any further without one, but we do not want to be hampered by any particular way of arriving at any desired result. As to whether we will adopt two hours’ sedimentation and Imhoff tanks, or a different type of tank, and one, two, or four hours’ sedimentation is a question that requires study for each separate municipality. It will depend upon the character of the local sewage. And with the developments that are taking place in sewage disposal it is quite conceivable that half an hour’s sedimentation may be a practical limit, with some particular type of tank. We do not want to be tied down to two hours’ sedimentation. And then as to the method of sterilizing the effluent, your report indicates that bleaching powder, or liquid chlorine, will be the agents to effect this. Possibly we will not want to be hampered by a provision as to these. The experiments at Milwaukee indicate that a higher bacterial removal than you are calling for on these waters can be obtained by aeration of sewage by the activated sludge process. This method may not be practical at all centers; it will be practical at some.

That is just the position, I think, that most of us engineers will take with reference to your report upon remedial measures. We are very much in sympathy with the effort toward setting a standard of purification for these boundary waters. It is needed. Some of us feel that the only feasible and practical way of accomplishing the desired end is by standardizing the sewage effluent, by saying just what percentage of matter in suspension you want removed and what bacterial removal you want. I think the sewage treatment standards suggested by Prof. Phelps are practical ones and will occasion very little disputing.

Mr. Magrath. You do not want to be hindered from going as far as possible?

Mr. Dallyn. We certainly do not, sir. As to the construction and location of interceptors, of course, it is recognized by the engineers that the commission has had a very difficult problem, and that, with the time available, they have made a very valuable report as to the feasible way of handling the question, but there are a great many studies that will be required to be made before a municipality should be tied down to any particular route. Your proposal may show the natural route to utilize, but there might be difficulties in construction which can not be anticipated, without a great deal of survey work, by testing the substrata, finding what is below, whether sand, rock, quicksand, or clay, which might be overcome by deviating from the prescribed route, even though the excavation were heavier. Surveys can not be made in a short time. I feel also that our municipalities heretofore have not had appropriations with which to make investigation as to whether the routes suggested by you are practicable. The money that the commission has expended on this work, of course, is not adequate to make a very minute survey; and when you realize that in order to examine this report properly each of these municipalities has to spend from $10,000 to $20,000 you realize that it is quite a large undertaking for them to do at a very short notice. It is work that will require probably a year to investigate. I believe that is all I desire to say.

Mr. Powell. You mean, by further investigation, having soundings and test pits along the route?

Mr. Dallyn. Oh, yes; and by cross sections of sewer, whether it is cheaper to use brick, or concrete, or vitrified block. There is a good deal of research work to be gone into before deciding upon work costing large sums of money.

Mr. Powell. You speak of the purification of the effluent up to a certain standard. Would you have that standard fixed without regard to whether the effluent is flowing into a small or large stream? Can you fix it absolutely, without regard to the size of the stream, or the quantity of water that was in the stream to dilute it?

Mr. Dallyn. The sedimentation part of it should be fixed absolutely. I do not see any difficulty in doing that. There appears to be no practical or structural difficulty in requiring a certain percentage removal, or a given number of parts per million, of residual suspended matter. As to the number of bacteria to be removed, I think that could be more flexible, depending entirely upon the use the stream was to be put to, whether as a channel of commerce, or used largely as a pleasure resort, or whether it had no particular value in either of those spheres. We have in our Province a great deal of trouble by reason of townships complaining against the discharge or raw sewage, or even treated sewage, from some of the municipalities, saying it affects cattle. It is a disputed matter, but they certainly have the law on their side, and can compel the municipalities to purify to a much greater extent than some of you might think advisable.

Mr. Powell. What is the growing consensus of opinion in respect of the purification of the effluent before allowing it to go into the stream?

Mr. Dallyn. Well, there seem to be two schools—the school of cranks, asking a high standard, and the conservation school, who want to use our natural resources to the utmost extent, and who sometimes overlook some of the changing factors which are not usually taken into consideration. I belong to the school of cranks, as I told you before, and I would like to see some better standard adopted than might immediately appear necessary, as in education we require to learn more than our vocation appears to demand when measured by practical methods of the conservation school.

Mr. Powell. Great Britain seems to head the movement in purification of streams.

Mr. Dallyn. They have much smaller streams.

Mr. Powell. It is a different problem, on account of the different quantity of water in the streams.

Mr. Dallyn. They lack the water-supply problem, and have to treat the sewage from the æsthetic point of view more than any other. I have in mind the ability of the stream to take up the putrescible matter, without giving out odors. In places where several centers must utilize the same stream there must needs be a more intense purification than where one center only enters it. With your problem the purification as to bacterial removal will have to be some function of the population in the congested centers. In other points, like Sarnia and Port Huron, the bacterial degree of pollution is not very heavy, not reaching the 500 standard Prof. Phelps recommends as being considered a contravention of the treaty, and the function of population does not amount to very much, so here you would have to treat it very much better than you apparently need. As a rule, when you use chemicals to disinfect sewage, you get no action at all until you remove about 60 per cent. You get a 60 per cent removal or you get nothing. It seems to be inert; and then you have to increase your quantities till you get up to 100 per cent removal, the last 10 per cent taking almost half as much again as the 90 per cent.

Mr. Powell. Your idea is that under no circumstances should there be any discharge into the large or small stream without purification to the extent of sedimentation?

Mr. Dallyn. I believe our civilization has reached a point now where, as far as self-respect goes, we are required to separate the gross solids from the liquid matter before discharging them into any stream.

Mr. Tawney. Do you desire to be heard at this time, Mr. Sloman?

Mr. Sloman. Not necessarily at this time, but at such a time as is convenient to the commission.

Mr. Tawney. Do the representatives from any of the cities on the United States side wish to be heard before taking recess?

STATEMENT OF MR. MASON L. BROWN, RIVER ROUGE, MICH.

Mr. Brown. As the representative of the River Rouge Village, I wish to say a word. I have also been authorized to make objections for the village of Ford and the city of Wyandotte. My objections have been placed before the commission by the gentleman who has just spoken, and I think I can add nothing more to his remarks. The objections are purely local and are engineering features, and as to the desirability of purifying the sewage before entering into the stream, I think all these villages are in accord, and very anxious to do whatever is right and necessary on that. In regard to River Rouge, I may say that we have a separate system there. We realized what was coming some six years ago, and we provided for it, and all we have to do now is to put in the purification plant. Our objection in regard to River Rouge is a local one, and the engineer who has just spoken has outlined it, and if we are not tied down to the exact locality, as shown on your engineer’s plan, we are thoroughly satisfied. We would rather object to the location, if we have to follow his suggestion. We can only say that the present pumping plant there is ample, without putting in an intercepting sewer, saving some $20,000 odd.

Mr. Tawney. Are the municipalities you are now speaking for included in the proposed consolidated sewage district, referred to in this report?

Mr. Brown. They are not.

Mr. Tawney. Then the plan for sewage treatment recommended by the consulting engineers does not apply to the municipalities you represent?

Mr. Brown. It does. The Rouge and Wyandotte are both specifically mentioned, and it is for those I am speaking. We are very anxious to have this carried out. It is simply a matter of local detail. We would like to have some changes, and we would get the same and possibly better results and at a great saving to these cities. In other words, we could do away with the interceptors.

Mr. Tawney. Have you any plan to suggest?

Mr. Brown. Taking the report of your engineer as it stands, it calls for an intercepting sewer. The treatment plan is per capita, and the maintenance the same. In looking over this report I find there is very little difference in regard to the cost of construction and maintaining the treatment plan for either a small population or a large one. In other words, in the village of Ford we have three outlets, and instead of building an intercepting sewer, tearing up all their pavement, why could we not put in those three plants, dividing it up, providing the figures in that report are correct? The same as to Wyandotte. I am simply taking the report as it stands. I do not see any necessity for an intercepting sewer.

Prof. Phelps. I may merely say, in reference to what Mr. Dallyn has said, that it is not anticipated that we would be fortunate enough to find in our brief survey the most feasible and the most economical plans. There is no intention of insisting upon the plans specifically, and if the cities and towns interested are able to save money and accomplish the result the commission desires to accomplish, we say Godspeed. It is results we are after. It is quite proper that the city shall take advantage not only of their more detailed and accurate engineering knowledge of the local situation, but also of those tremendous improvements in sewage disposal which are going ahead so fast it is difficult to keep track of them.

Mr. Powell. Take that particular point of treating all the sewage at one point, or at three points; that is, having an intercepting sewer or not having one.

Prof. Phelps. The engineer can advise him if he is correct. My personal experience would lead me to doubt whether he can save money by building three plants instead of one. However, if he can save money let him do it.

Mr. Brown. I just took the statement of the report itself. It took so much per capita and disregarded the population entirely. We have never made an detailed figures. This came up hurriedly, and we have nothing to suggest. We are heartily in favor of the improvements, but in regard to the commission tying us down as to details, we would like to know how much limit we have if we get results.

Mr. Tawney. Have you any objection to or criticism upon the standard of purification set forth in the report, or, in other words, have you any criticism upon the result that is to be attained with respect to purification of water mentioned in the report?

Mr. Brown. No criticism whatsoever.

Mr. Tawney. The municipalities you represent are entirely in accord with the report, so far as it relates to standardization?

Mr. Brown. Absolutely.

Mr. Powell. You recognize the obligation of your community to get rid of the sewage, but you want to do it as economically as possible.

Mr. Brown. That is exactly the fact.

Mr. Powell. You do not quarrel with the onus being thrown upon you to do it in some way?

Mr. Brown. No. All these villages seem to be very willing to do something, and they are anxious. They know of this investigation, and they have delayed works on that account, and they are very anxious to do the best possible good for all.

Mr. Tawney. Your present population is 15,000?

Mr. Brown. That is the population they gave for River Rouge, but I think it is not as large as that. I think you will find the present population is only about half of that.

Mr. Tawney. Is there anyone here representing any of the other municipalities on the United States side?

STATEMENT OF ALEXANDER ADAMS, OF ECORSE, MICH.

Mr. Adams. I am here representing Ecorse, and the council there met and said they were in accord with the arrangement. They wanted some system of treating the sewage, but nothing has been done at all. The water supply there is furnished by the Detroit water board.

Mr. Tawney. The council has taken action in the matter, you say?

Mr. Adams. No; they have not taken action.

Mr. Tawney. Have they taken any action in approving or disapproving of the report of our sanitary engineer?

Mr. Adams. They approve of the idea set forth in the report.

Mr. Tawney. With respect to the treatment of sewage and the purification of the water?

Mr. Adams. Yes.

Mr. Tawney. Then is Mr. Murdock here?

Mr. Adams. I represent Mr. Murdock.

Mr. Tawney. Is there anything further? Do you occupy any official position in the village?

Mr. Adams. None at all.

Mr. Tawney. Have you any information as to whether or not the council contemplate, in the near future, proceeding with work which they recognized as being necessary for the purpose of purifying the sewage, and so forth?

Mr. Adams. They have not yet. They have proposed to put in some extensions to the present system, but not purifying it.

Mr. Magrath. You understand that they anticipate looking for certain results in the way of improvement in the treatment of the sewage?

Mr. Adams. Yes.

Mr. Powell. You are to be congratulated, because you recognize the obligation and propose to face it like men.

Mr. Adams. Yes; it is our opinion something should be done, and we want it to be the best arrangement.

Mr. Tawney. Anyone here representing Trenton?

Mr. Blomshield. Yes. I would like to take it up this afternoon. I have thought of some notes I would like to jot down.

Mr. Tawney. Mr. Jennings is here, representing the city of St. Clair. What is your official position, if any?

Mr. Jennings. Mayor of the city of St. Clair.

STATEMENT OF MR. MAX JENNINGS, OF ST. CLAIR, MICH.

Mr. Jennings. I am mayor of the city of St. Clair.

Mr. Tawney. Have you or your sanitary engineers received the report of our consulting engineers with respect to remedying the pollution of these waters?

Mr. Jennings. We have.

Mr. Tawney. Have you any suggestions or criticisms?

Mr. Jennings. No.

Mr. Tawney. Or any statement you would wish to make?

Mr. Jennings. I was in hopes we would have the engineer with us to-day. He is not here. I presume he will be here this afternoon. It has been placed in his hands, and he assured me he would be here to present his views this afternoon. The superintendent of the electric light and waterworks understands the situation better than I do.

Mr. Tawney. You have had the report studied by your engineer?

Mr. Jennings. It has been placed in the hands of Mr. C. L. Weil; he is not our engineer, but is the consulting engineer of the Diamond Crystal Salt Works, and it may be he will be here right after lunch.

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM WOLLATT, OF WALKERVILLE, ONTARIO.

Mr. Tawney. Mr. Wollatt, you represent Walkerville?

Mr. Wollatt. In connection with the Essex Board of Utilities Commission.

Mr. Tawney. That is for Essex County?

Mr. Wollatt. For the municipalities in Essex County, opposite Detroit, beginning with Ford, Walkerville, Windsor, Sandwich, Sandwich West, and Ojibway. That is running down the river.

Mr. Magrath. The extreme distance between the two points is what?

Mr. Wollatt. Probably about 12 miles.

Mr. Gardner. Have you full jurisdiction over the whole territory?

Mr. Wollatt. This bill which I have in my hand gives the commission complete jurisdiction. This is an act passed by the Ontario Legislature last session. We just simply wish to report that this act has been granted to the utilities commission, and we are getting busy. We have a meeting this week, at which action will be taken as to what the outcome will be of the matters under discussion. We are in deep sympathy with the water question and the sewage matter; but just what the utilities commission will do we can not say at the present moment. We are not that far advanced yet, except to say, of course, that we will have to be governed by the provincial board of health.

Mr. Tawney. You are subject to the Ontario or Provincial Board of Health?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes.

Mr. Tawney. Have you given any study, or have your engineers given any study, to the report of the sanitary engineers of this commission?

Mr. Wollatt. No; not yet.

Mr. Magrath. Have you organized yet?

Mr. Wollatt. Just last week, so far as the appointment of a chairman and secretary; but no further organization. We will do that this week.

Mr. Magrath. What are your purposes?

Mr. Wollatt. The bill sets out that we may construct main waterworks, which will be a system taking in from Ford to Ojibway and sewers in similar manner, if they are thought desirable. Whether it will be done under this or individually the commission have not got that far yet. We are in a preliminary stage in regard to that yet. We thought we would come here and let you gentlemen know we are alive to this situation, and that we have taken action in having this bill passed.

Mr. Magrath. Your utility commission exists purely for water problems?

Mr. Wollatt. Water and sewage. We are hoping to include other matters later, such as town planning, and so on. That will come later.

Mr. Mignault. Is your commission already named?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes; and the commission has been appointed.

Mr. Mignault. Is the commission appointed named in the bill?

Mr. Wollatt. The municipalities are named in the bill, with power in the municipality to name their commissioners, the mayors being ex officio members.

Mr. Powell. Have you copies of that bill?

Mr. Wollatt. No. I can let you have this, and we can probably secure more for you, if necessary.

Mr. Mignault. The commission has been formed already and constituted?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes.

Mr. Mignault. And proposes to consider these problems?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes.

Mr. Mignault. And that is the position you take?

Mr. Wollatt. That is our position.

Mr. Mignault. You have doubtless received the report of our sanitary engineer?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes.

Mr. Mignault. Have you any remarks to make with respect to it?

Mr. Wollatt. No: I must confess that I have not, because I have not studied the situation.

Mr. Magrath. Who are the officers of the commission?

Mr. Wollatt. Myself, as chairman—William Wollatt—and J. E. Hoan, Walkerville, secretary. We have no further officers appointed yet, although this bill empowers us to engage engineers and various other officers as we may find necessary as we proceed. The municipalities, we may say, have all consented; that is, the municipalities named and included in this for the commission to take the matter of sewer and water out of their hands and place it in the hands of the commission.

Mr. Magrath. What led to the obtaining of that commission? Was it dissatisfaction with the present conditions over there?

Mr. Wollatt. Not altogether. We had in view a very large growth on that side of the border, and we were not as well provided with water as we thought we ought to be, and that was one of the main things; then the unsatisfactory conditions entered into it.

Mr. Tawney. I suppose economic considerations entered into it?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes; that entered into it partly.

Mr. Magrath. Are you prepared to indorse the results of the examination and the recommendation by our sanitary experts?

Mr. Wollatt. That is a question I would hardly like to answer at this time without having the proper consultation with the engineer who may be appointed to go into the matter in detail. We are heartily in sympathy with the proposition to obtain pure water. That is what we want, but just how we shall obtain such we can not at this moment say.

Mr. Magrath. But you realize that you must live up to the treaty conditions; that you must not pollute water to the injury of health or property on this side of the boundary?

Mr. Wollatt. Yes; and we presume they will not do anything on this side to injure us.

Mr. Tawney. Have you copies of the report?

Mr. Wollatt. I believe we have.

Mr. Tawney. One has been sent to all the villages, and I did not know whether your board had one.

Mr. Wollatt. Yes; we have one.

(Adjourned till 2.30 p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

The commission reconvened at the expiration of the recess.

Mr. Tawney. Mr. Jennings, we will hear you now.

Mr. Jennings. Gentlemen, I am not prepared to say very much on this preliminary report that has been made, the engineering part of it being out of my line, but I will say for the city of St. Clair that we indorse this project in principle, although perhaps the engineering points of it we might not agree with.

Mr. Tawney. You mean that your city indorses the results of the investigations so far as they relate to the treatment of sewage and the purification of water?

Mr. Jennings. Yes, sir; we are heartily in sympathy with the purification of water. We think it is necessary and we certainly shall do all we can to push the project along.

Mr. Tawney. Have you any criticism to make in respect to the standards proposed for the treatment of the water?

Mr. Jennings. Nothing that I know of. The preliminary plans as drawn up by your engineer I will leave for Prof. Weil, of St. Clair, to discuss with you. He is the consulting engineer of the Diamond Crystal Salt Co., and a man who is well up in his line.

STATEMENT OF PROF. CHARLES LEWIS WEIL, OF ST. CLAIR, MICH.

Prof. Weil. Mr. Chairman, Mayor Jennings asked me to look over the plans and the report of the consulting engineer of the commission, which I have done. I am not here to report upon these plans from the standpoint of an engineer, but I am here simply as one having some interest in what should be done. What I have to say could hardly be construed as other than the impressions of one who has read the report and looked over the plans and is interested in the outcome. In fact, until Mr. Gardner made some statements to me here to-day I did not know just what the object of this meeting was. I understood that we were here to be instructed and not to make comments. So that, as I am trying to emphasize, what I have to say will be rather in the way of my impressions than carefully thought out criticisms or considerations.

As Mayor Jennings has said, I was impressed with the report in its entirety and not only as it relates to St. Clair but, seeing it for the first time yesterday, I admit that I read pretty nearly the whole report.

I was impressed with the fact that the plan proposed for St. Clair divides the city into two sections, with the point of purification as a division, and that might be objectionable from a real estate standpoint. It may not be practicable to do otherwise, but that is what they have done at St. Clair. Sewage disposal should be at the outskirts and not in the center of the city.

Again, I was impressed with the fact that the Diamond Crystal Salt Co., which is the chief industry located at St. Clair, is at the proposed point of purification and disposal. That might constitute a hardship for the leading industry of the town. The Diamond Crystal Salt Co. has recently expended a great deal of money for a new intake pipe 24 inches in diameter and 350 feet long. It has recently expended a large sum of money for a filtration system to filter all the water that goes into the plant, to the salt beds, and through its vessels. It is expending a large sum of money for sterilizing the brine and carrying it to a temperature of 280° F. before it is used.

It may be known to this commission that experiments made in France show that pathogenic germs live for six months in brine not subjected to a temperature of 100° C. The department in France that made the experiments corresponds to our bureau in the United States having to do with pure foods and drugs. In France they were even going so far as to prohibit the sale of so-called natural salt, sea salt, and so forth, for the table, on the basis of impurity. The ordinary vacuum plant, as you may know, carries a temperature of only about 120° F., and that does not destroy pathogenic germs in brine.

As I have stated, the Diamond Crystal Salt Co. has gone to a very large expense to produce pure salt. The location of a plant of the kind mentioned at that point, notwithstanding the amount of proof that could be brought to bear to show that harmful results would be a minimum, might possibly be very objectionable. I can say that, in my individual opinion, and not speaking for the company, I feel that the company would be willing to cooperate with the city of St. Clair to secure a location that would be more advantageous to this plant. I am not criticizing the proposition, but simply stating that the proposed location may be objectionable, and I may be wrong with regard to that.

Another impression that I got from the report was this: I found that it says that the population of this city has not increased in 25 years. I think that is about right. I also found in looking over the report that they would pay over 2 to 1 to maintain this plant if it were put in as proposed; that is, the cost of maintenance would be, roughly speaking, 2 to 1: say, 50 cents perhaps in Detroit and 90 cents in St. Clair, something like twice the expense on a city that is in no way an increased menace if it has not changed its conditions at all. Therefore it would appear to me as a taxpayer and one interested from the outside that the installation of such a plant at the undivided expense of a small city like St. Clair might perhaps be a burden, and hardly a just burden, on the taxpayers when this is, in a measure, an international matter. I understand from Mr. Barron that the city would be subject to a considerable expense through its change in pavements if the plan at present proposed is carried out.

The summation of what I have had to say is probably this: That interested in the improvement of and desirous to combine in this plan, a small city like St. Clair has to be very guarded in its commendation or acceptance on account of the conditions that might be imposed through a too hasty conclusion in the matter. I think that is about all I have to say.

Mr. Powell. What is the population of St. Clair?

Prof. Weil. Three thousand.

Mr. Tawney. You probably observed in reading the report of the consulting sanitary engineer that three possible sites for the treatment plant were studied, and I understand that the one that is recommended here is the one that you are objecting to.

Prof. Weil. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tawney. Have you considered the objection stated by the engineers to either of the other two?

Prof. Weil. Yes; as I recall, I have. I think it was simply a matter of expense. Is that correct?

Mr. Tawney. Yes. One of them was abandoned without detailed study, because it obviously required an unduly expensive intercepting line. Another site located on the west side of Pine River was studied in detail, but was found to require a more expensive system of interceptors than the one east of Pine River, which is shown on plate No. 16, and that is the plan that I understand you object to.

Prof. Weil. May I ask the commission a question?

Mr. Tawney. Certainly.

Prof. Weil. Is it good engineering to reject the most expensive site on the ground of expense when it is an international matter?

Mr. Tawney. I did not quite catch your question.

Prof. Weil. Would the commission consider it good engineering to reject a certain site on the ground of expense when it is an international matter?

Mr. Tawney. It would be if an equally available site could be obtained for a less expense.

Prof. Weil. Is this not a third selection, this last one that was selected?

Mr. Tawney. Yes; it was selected in preference to the other two.

Prof. Weil. On the grounds of expense?

Mr. Tawney. Yes.

Prof. Weil. That means, then, that the expense is to fall on the municipality?

Mr. Tawney. No; the selecting of the third site, as I understand it, was to save expense to the municipality.

Prof. Weil. But that means that the expense must fall on the municipality?

Mr. Tawney. Yes.

Prof. Weil. In a big question of sanitation like this, should the matter of expense be the question of a municipality that is not growing?

Mr. Tawney. Here is the situation: These waters into which you are discharging your raw sewage are international waters. The result is the contamination or pollution of these waters, which, whether it does now or not, may in the future result in a violation of the treaty between the United States and Great Britain. The two Governments, which have agreed that neither will permit on their respective sides the pollution of these waters to the injury or health or property on the other, have a right to put a stop to it by requiring the municipalities which are thus offending against the treaty to either treat their sewage or discharge it elsewhere than in these international waters.

Now, the purpose is to find the most practicable and economical method for the treatment of the sewage by these cities that are using these international waters as open sewers. We are engaged in an effort to carry out the provisions of the treaty, or to advise the two Governments how the provisions of the treaty may be carried out with the least possible expense to the municipalities that are using these waters as open sewers for the purpose of disposing of their raw sewage, and the only methods that our consulting sanitary engineers have been able to devise and recommend are those which are proposed here.

I did not quite get your objection to the third site suggested by the consulting engineer—I mean the site east of Pine River, which is indicated on plate No. 16.

Prof. Weil. I made two objections to it, one the location with regard to the main manufacturing industry of the town.

Mr. Tawney. How would it affect this salt industry?

Prof. Weil. I have tried to explain how it might affect it. I think you will appreciate that all I have said is tentative. I have explained that the company has gone to a very large expense to do what, in so far as I know, no other salt company in the world is doing—filter all the water that goes into the beds and into its plant and sterilize the brine. Now, the location of this plant in the immediate vicinity of the salt works might have a very bad effect, so far as impression is concerned.

Mr. Tawney. Sentimental?

Prof. Weil. Not at all; but actual physiological and psychological effect.

Another point I tried to bring out was that it divided the town into two districts, when in my opinion it would be to the advantage of the town to have this proposed plant for purifying located on the outskirts of the town.

There is one question that I would like to ask now: Is it likely to be the recommendation of the commission in furtherance of what you have cited in regard to the treaty that these things shall be carried out even if they constitute a hardship on the particular ownership, municipality, or village?

Mr. Tawney. That depends altogether upon whether the sewage which they are discharging crosses the boundary and constitutes what the treaty describes as an injury to health or property on the other side. If it does, it would have to be prevented, or else the treaty obligations between the two nations would be violated. Of course, if the water beyond the boundary is not polluted at all by reason of the discharge of raw sewage on either side, then the discharge of that sewage would not be in contravention of the treaty; but if it crosses the boundary into another country to the injury of the health or property of the people of that country, it would have to stop or the two Governments would have to rescind or enforce their treaty obligations. It would be a question of fact as to whether or not the pollution extends across the boundary to the injury of the health and property of the people on the other side. If it does it would have to be stopped, no matter what expense might be imposed on the people who are offending against this provision of the treaty. That is my interpretation of the provisions of the treaty, and I think it is the interpretation of the members of the commission generally.

You can readily understand and appreciate the position that this commission is in. We are created an international tribunal for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of a treaty which has been entered into by two great countries. There will be no hardship imposed upon any community if that community is not offending against the provisions of the treaty. If the people of any community are offending against the provisions of the treaty, they will have to take some means of preventing that which constitutes a violation of the treaty. I do not say that St. Clair is doing that, but if the conclusion of the commission should be that that is a fact with respect to St. Clair, it would have to adopt some method for the treatment of its sewage.

Prof. Weil. Then, what is the object of this meeting?

Mr. Tawney. To ascertain what objections the various communities have to the plans proposed by the consulting engineer for the treatment of the sewage, so as to avoid any violation of this treaty.

Prof. Weil. If I understand your last remarks, it is perfectly immaterial what objections we may have.

Mr. Tawney. No; if the communities have any better method than the one proposed, one that would be less expensive and equally as efficient, the commission would be very glad to hear of it. This is simply a report to the commission by the consulting sanitary engineer employed by the commission for that purpose. The commission has not formulated its conclusions, and before formulating them it desires to hear from the various communities affected by the recommendations of our consulting sanitary engineer.