TESTIMONY OF EVERETT D. GLOVER (continued 2)

Mr. Jenner. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent that you knew about them at that time?

Mr. Glover. I am sure I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or knowledge of the Oswalds?

Mr. Glover. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her.

Mr. Jenner. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about the Oswalds?

Mr. Glover. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory, Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come.

Mr. Jenner. Did she speak Russian?

Mr. Glover. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty MacDonald?

Mr. Glover. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband?

Mr. Glover. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion?

Mr. Glover. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us, that were living together. I am sure he was there.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were separated?

Mr. Glover. I was.

Mr. Jenner. As of that time?

Mr. Glover. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her because of the Russian.

Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he said he would come and he came.

Mr. Jenner. Is he a married man?

Mr. Glover. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen?

Mr. Glover. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him.

I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement.

Mr. Jenner. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as to who attended your party?

Mr. Glover. I believe so. I don't call it a party.

Mr. Jenner. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop in?

Mr. Glover. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were going somewhere.

Mr. Jenner. Did the discussion take place—were there any discussions during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his political views?

Mr. Glover. Yes; there were discussions.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about them.

Mr. Glover. Again I have to give an overall impression I got. This may be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present, but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall impression—he was apparently a Marxist.

Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else present said he was a Marxist——

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any, between Marxism and Communism?

Mr. Glover. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him.

Mr. Jenner. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure up to those theories?

Mr. Glover. Apparently so.

Mr. Jenner. His so-called ideals?

Mr. Glover. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, he had—what he had come back to here in America didn't measure up to what he——

Mr. Glover. Apparently. He said so.

Mr. Jenner. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on this occasion?

Mr. Glover. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American system measured up to his ideals.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in Russia?

Mr. Glover. Yes; there was considerable.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that.

Mr. Glover. Well, the thing I remember was that he was working in some kind of a trade. I don't remember what trade he was working at. And I don't remember really too many strong impressions.

The strong impression I got of things that he talked about were the—was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in Russia after she married him. She was apparently looked down on. This was the impression I had from listening to Oswald, either Oswald or conversation with his wife.

Mr. Jenner. That occurred at this meeting at your house?

Mr. Glover. I believe so, yes.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, how did you get the Oswalds there? Did you call them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? How was that arranged?

Mr. Glover. I talked with the De Mohrenschildts as to where they lived. By this time he was living in Dallas. He had gotten a job in Dallas and they were living in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. Glover. I don't know the name of the company, but I asked them (De Mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone number at the place where he worked. I still have his telephone number and I called him and asked him if he would come over to the house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he would. I believe he gave me the address. It might have been the De Mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. I have that address and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when I was about to throw away the slip of paper on which I accumulated a lot of addresses, I copied it down in my address book. I just in—I just had a feeling I ought to record this.

Mr. Jenner. He lived on Elsbeth Street?

Mr. Glover. He lived on Elsbeth, that's right. The only thing I remember about the place at work was that I think he worked in the photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a printing plant. Then I called him and I asked him if he would come over, and he didn't have any transportation, and I offered to come over and pick him up. My wife remembers that I was down at the ice rink skating. I went down there early and picked him up on the way back home.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the time that you knew Oswald or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an automobile and operate an automobile?

Mr. Glover. I do not recall anything said about that.

Mr. Jenner. I ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. Would that be a better description? It was a gathering rather than a party?

Mr. Glover. Well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful that I shrink away from him. It wasn't a party. It was a gathering for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some other people look at him and see what they made of him, so I call it a gathering.

Mr. Jenner. I think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event. Tell us what he said his life in Russia was like, his views, if he expressed any views, and then I am going to ask you after that your impression of the man.

Mr. Glover. Well, I don't really recall anything that he said specifically. Seems like his conversation was of the type where he did not initiate very much himself. He answered questions, and maybe it is partly hindsight, now, I don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the impression that he wasn't very candid at all. He was not the open type of person who one might have hoped for. Maybe it was too much to hope, but I believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something like he did in the direction of Russia, and have realized how wrong it was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their experiences, and of people who have gone in a Communist direction certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it.

And he was certainly not a candid person. I do not remember specifically anything he said. It is hard really to get a very good impression of things. It seems like he was trying to go along with things. He was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was going along with the questioning. That was the impression I got. I remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but I don't remember what it was. I remember his discussion of the—it might have been his wife, I am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to woman ratio in Russia. And I don't know that that occurred that night or sometime previous on another occasion. It might have occurred on another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought out about the uneven ratio, and I got the impression that might have been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone.

An FBI man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of the differences in the age. She is very young, and the people were—who were killed off in World War II would be in my generation of 40 or 50 years old and there might not be much competition there. But that was the impression I got. Then there was also something mentioned about the treatment of the Cubans. It seems they lived near a place where there were Cubans.

Mr. Jenner. It seems what?

Mr. Glover. It seems they were living at or near a place where Cubans who had been brought from Cuba by the Communist regime were being indoctrinated.

Mr. Jenner. This is while they were in Russia?

Mr. Glover. This is while they were in Russia, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of some Cubans being in Russia?

Mr. Glover. I used the words "being indoctrinated," because I assume this is what was going on. I don't think he used that word.

Mr. Jenner. Did he indicate that he had any contact with them?

Mr. Glover. Nothing specifically that I remember was said about having actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the treatment. Actual contact, I don't know whether he said that, but it didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they were really treated well.

Mr. Jenner. The Cubans were?

Mr. Glover. The Cubans were really treated well and given everything they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the Cubans, as it were, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald express views with respect to Castro and the Cubans?

Mr. Glover. I could not remember any specific view about them, but I got the impression from his description of the Cubans who were there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that the Cubans were very much accepted by the Russians. Apparently, in all this conversation, I believe he was being very cagey about making statements, but he would give the impression that these people must have been pretty nice. They were being treated so by the Russians. Actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated very well. I don't remember him having said anything specifically about his liking or not liking the Cubans or Castro.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else that occurred that evening with respect to conversation and his political views and life in Russia that you now recall?

Mr. Glover. No; I don't think there is anything that I recall right at the moment.

Mr. Jenner. Did Mrs. Paine take part in these discussions?

Mr. Glover. Yes; she talked to both Oswald and she talked to his wife very much.

Mr. Jenner. When she talked to Marina, in what language did she speak?

Mr. Glover. Well, I believe what she said, she said in Russian. I don't believe Marina was able to converse in English.

Mr. Jenner. Did she translate for Marina?

Mr. Glover. Yes; I believe she did.

Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald translate for her?

Mr. Glover. Marina, I cannot be sure about that. I don't remember that he did.

Mr. Jenner. This was in a house or in an apartment?

Mr. Glover. It was in a house.

Mr. Jenner. Did the women kind of move around and the men gather together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature, were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and interplay?

Mr. Glover. Well, I don't remember any particular pattern. The only person who would talk very much to Marina was Ruth Paine, because she was the only woman.

Mr. Jenner. What about the De Mohrenschildts? Did they just drop in and leave right away?

Mr. Glover. They stayed a very brief time.

Mr. Jenner. Did the De Mohrenschildts take part? There wasn't anybody other than Mrs. Paine, or possibly Lee Oswald, to translate for Marina, is that a fair statement?

Mr. Glover. That's right. The De Mohrenschildts did not come in at the beginning of the evening. They came sometime, if I remember, around 9 o'clock and stayed a short while and left.

Mr. Jenner. Did your guests press Oswald as to his political views?

Mr. Glover. Yes; he had been in Russia. He didn't think very much of that. He didn't think much of the United States' system, but what it was about the system, he didn't know.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers?

Mr. Glover. That's right. I think they ascertained that pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. He just reiterated, "I am a Marxist," or "I believe in communism," or I have these ideals, but I haven't found the ideal site anywhere? So far, that is a fairly general statement?

Mr. Glover. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Since I said so much about it, is there anything you want to elaborate on in that connection?

Mr. Glover. No; I think what you said I agree to, that he was essentially more on the defensive. They asked him, as I just stated, what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the answer.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to why, if you had an impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn English? And if so, what was that impression?

Mr. Glover. Well, the impression I had was simply one of maybe wanting to control her, but I did not think of anything beyond the usual situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of the two is much, is very much the dominating person.

Mr. Jenner. Did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple?

Mr. Glover. I certainly did, because in the first place, the story I heard was they were trying to find a place for Marina where she could get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so I assumed she was staying with him.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have of him then and subsequently, as to whether he was a stable person?

Mr. Glover. I did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly well behaved at the times I saw him. It is true, I did not think he was very candid, but I felt——

Mr. Jenner. You did not think he was very candid?

Mr. Glover. I did not think he was very candid, no; but I felt that whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. But I had the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. I did not get the impression, as I stated before, I did not get the impression of him being violent, which later came out, and——

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise?

Mr. Glover. Well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, I would say from that point of view, he was poorly adjusted. From the point of view, possibly of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had another job—I mean he apparently worked in Fort Worth and then he got a job in Dallas, and after he left here he went to New Orleans and got a job, and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that connection, or did you acquire?

Mr. Glover. Well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. He apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by, in spite of his purported Marxism. Apparently the dominating thing in this—in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and I am getting this from what I have read in the newspapers. It is sort of hindsight.

Mr. Jenner. Try to keep that out as much as possible. I am trying to get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man.

Mr. Glover. Well, I would say that I didn't really have any impression of great instability. But I had the impression that he didn't know what he wanted at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression that he was not capable of knowing what he wanted? I don't mean mental operation. I mean a man whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity since, what his regions of reaching and desires were?

Mr. Glover. Well, I would guess, I thought at the time that a person in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he probably never would discover what he was going to live by—of course I didn't keep contact with him after this meeting—and, consequently, had no further chance to observe him.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to talk about that in a moment.

Mr. Glover. Okay.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his lot in life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he would rationalize to avoid self-analysis?

Mr. Glover. I didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the time. I think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because I think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an interest in him, and I think he ate this up to be questioned about something by somebody who might have some status in society where he didn't have any. But I didn't get the impression that he was terribly bitter about this. I got the impression he was very unsatisfied and unadjusted, maladjusted. He didn't make any adjustment.

Mr. Jenner. During the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you recall, concerning the United States?

Mr. Glover. No; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about the system not being a satisfactory one.

Mr. Jenner. Was President Kennedy mentioned?

Mr. Glover. I do not believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or supporting any particular political causes?

Mr. Glover. No; he did not say anything about that at all.

Mr. Jenner. You got no impression that evening as to whether he might or could be or was—might be or could be or was a person given to violence?

Mr. Glover. No; I did not get the impression that he was given to violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife, apparently, according to the De Mohrenschildts. They led me to think that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say, but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or something like this.

Mr. Jenner. That is the last occasion that you saw the Oswalds?

Mr. Glover. Essentially that is the last. I hedge a little bit on this because I faintly recollect that De Mohrenschildt came by the house where I was living once, and he may have had Oswald with him, but it was nothing but a passing meeting. If it existed, I am not quite sure. It was nothing of significance that existed.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see or meet, or were you present at any time subsequent to this meeting when Marina was present?

Mr. Glover. Yes; I was present at one time. Let's see now, the sequence of events after that were, De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti sometime in early May. I am not really sure whether it is before they left. I guess it might have been before they left, or right after they left. I had a record player which they had loaned me.

Mr. Jenner. From the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. Glover. The De Mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when Pierce and Schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (De Mohrenschildts) wanted to give the record player to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. The De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. Glover. Yes; I had the record player, so one night when Pierce and I were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of Bob Tabbert, who I used to work with, we brought the record player with us and left it off at Marina's place.

Now at that time I knew where they lived, because I picked them up before at Elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, Marina was wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, I don't know the name of the street, I could find it, I'm sure, it was the first——

Mr. Jenner. Neely Street?

Mr. Glover. I don't remember the name. I could find the street, because it was the first street on the left going north on Elsbeth.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, this was an apartment building or home different from the one in which you picked them up in February of 1963?

Mr. Glover. That's right. So I gave her the record player.

Mr. Jenner. Gave it to her?

Mr. Glover. That's right. That is what De Mohrenschildt asked me to do.

Mr. Jenner. Lee Oswald did not appear on the scene at that time?

Mr. Glover. No; he was not there.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know he was not there?

Mr. Glover. No; I didn't know he was not there; no. Well, I am not sure about that. Seems to me, yes, that I asked if her husband was there, because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over there for sometime when we were going, and it had fallen off and had the arm damaged, and I could not converse with her, and I tried to explain, and I asked if her husband was there, and I had the impression he wasn't there, and I am not sure about that.

Mr. Jenner. Then what we have referred to was the last contact you had with Marina?

Mr. Glover. That was the last time I saw her.

Mr. Jenner. Did Mrs. Paine ever talk to you about Marina at any time thereafter?

Mr. Glover. The Paines, either one or the other, talked to me after that time. On one occasion I got a call on the telephone, I am not sure whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Paine, in which they said the record player—I believe it was the same one I had given or taken over to her that belonged to the De Mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and that she—first of all, the events after that went like this.

The De Mohrenschildts left and they told me Oswald lost his job and had gone to New Orleans. Then I believe it was only later through the Paines that I learned, I believe it was a telephone conversation, that Marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and also left to go to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. This was in the spring of 1963?

Mr. Glover. This was sometime after the first of May. And I think at this time I learned through them that Marina had gone to join him in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about Mrs. Paine having taken Marina to New Orleans?

Mr. Glover. Nothing was said about her taking her to New Orleans, but I do believe I knew at that time that Marina had stayed with her. I think I learned it through conversation with them. I don't remember having heard from or seen the Paines since the time they were at my house until the time that I have learned Marina had gone to New Orleans and had previously stayed with Ruth. And until the time that Mike came over and delivered the record player. I think Mike was the one who brought the record player, and I don't remember the circumstances on that, but I believe it was he. I am not sure I was home. I am not sure about that.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, that letter that De Mohrenschildt wrote you from Haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his remarks about what you have testified:

"It is interesting, but before we began to help Marina and the child, we asked the FBI man in Dallas or in Fort Worth about Lee, and he told us he was completely harmless?"

Mr. Glover. Yes; he used the word harmless, but I wasn't sure I was quoting what he said.

Mr. Jenner. Are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to Marina?

Mr. Glover. Yes; so I learned, at the time they brought the record player, that she had gone to New Orleans.

Then the only other connection I had with them was that later than that, and now again I am not quite sure about the date, but it seems it must have been after I was married and I was still living on Southwestern, but I got a call from one of the Paines saying they had records that the De Mohrenschildts had given Marina. These were for Russian speaking people learning English, I believe, that they had, and what to do with them?

And I said, bring them over here and I will store them. And I remember talking, and I remember Michael Paine brought the records over to me and came in the house, and I talked with him a little bit. At this time Michael Paine told me the last information I had about them. He told me that, I am not sure whether he said they were back, Marina was coming back, or Marina had already come back to Dallas, that Lee had lost his job and that Lee was coming back, and that was in the time I believe——

Mr. Jenner. Was coming back to live or was visiting?

Mr. Glover. Well, was coming back. Presumably he lost his job and was coming back here.

Mr. Jenner. Lost his job in New Orleans?

Mr. Glover. Right; and he was coming back here to live. That is the last I heard of them until the event of November 22d.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, is there anything Mr. Glover, that has occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy and any of the people about which I have questioned you, and—or anything else that you think might help the Commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths with respect to that tragic event?

Mr. Glover. I don't believe there is anything else I have of any value to add.

Mr. Jenner. Now you understand the Rules of the Commission. You may, if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to you next week if you wish to do so. If not, you have the privilege of waiving that right should you so desire. You also have the privilege of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. That is, read and sign it. And you also have the privilege of waiving that right. Do you have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment?

Mr. Glover. I don't have any reaction. I consider this as, because I don't know very much about the legal aspects, I consider this to be a technicality. Maybe I should ask someone.

Mr. Jenner. Frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you wish to, if you prefer—that you read your deposition over it will be available to you next week, should you so desire.

Mr. Glover. I believe so. I think I would like to read it.

Mr. Jenner. I would think that it would be about Tuesday. If you will call here and ask for me or ask for Mr. Liebeler, your transcript will be available. And if you have any changes or corrections call them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections or additions.

Mr. Glover. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With this I have no further questions. I have only this to say, that I appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent I had to inquire into your personal life, I hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing personal on my part.

Mr. Glover. I have something to say also. I think that it is not a question of my doing anyone a favor. I consider it a duty to tell what I know about such a situation.

Mr. Jenner. All right, that is where we are at the moment.