MONDAY EVENING SESSION (continued 3)

MR. CHASE: That was one point I wanted brought out, that we are now just in the preliminary stage of this Carpathian variety selection business. Of the selections made some have been made by default, because there weren't enough of other samples to compete with. On the other hand, the several we have we all consider outstanding in some respect, or other, and are of value as a beginning provided we bear in mind that we haven't scratched the surface on Carpathian walnuts yet.

MR. STOKE: And let's not confine ourselves to Carpathian walnuts, because Hanson is not Carpathian walnut, and that's an excellent nut.

MR. CHASE: Mr. Stoke, what is going to be NNGA's policy in trying to give recommendations for the planting of Carpathian or Persian walnuts? In other words, does it make any real difference whether it's a Carpathian or whether it is not, as long as it has proved hardy and of good quality?

MR. STOKE: We are dealing with Persian walnuts, and Carpathian happens to be one class of Persian, and Broadview happens to be a Persian that came from Russia, and Lancaster is one that came from somewhere in Europe and landed up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I would emphasize the name Persian as the over all name. The Carpathian is merely a Persian walnut which has been brought from the Carpathian mountains of Poland.

MR. BECKER: Last summer a group of nut growers went to Lee Sommers', which is in the central part of Michigan. In the invitation to our nut growers I said, "This is the only pure Carpathian orchard we know in Michigan." That didn't set well with some of them and they took issue with me. In answering this issue, I said that Mr. Sommers had planted Carpathian Persian walnut seed that came from Poland direct. Many of us have a mixture. Even Mr. Shessler has the Hanson and Jacobs and a number of others. If he sells you seed, you are going to get it mixed. In a few years we will have a job keeping pure Carpathian.

DR. MACDANIELS: Isn't it a matter of straight terminology? Juglans Regia is the Persian walnut. Carpathians are a regional strain of Juglans Regia.

MR. CHASE: I think we all understand that.

MR. MACHOVINA: Can we speak of a Carpathian strain. Crath himself said there were many. He even found walnuts growing in clusters like grapes.

DR. MACDANIELS: It would be a regional group of clones with a certain origin not a strain in the genetic sense.

MR. STOKE: They are just Persian walnuts that happened to come from the Carpathian region.

DR. CRANE: There is a little difference. I believe that in the northern countries we have had more or less inbreeding and we could consider them more nearly a line, not a strain, because of that. When the original seed was introduced by Reverend Crath, probably each one of those lots of nuts come from different trees, as a line, but, now this second generation stuff that's coming along, it's just Juglans Regia. It's a hardy Persian walnut.

MR. STOKE: I think I can offer a word of explanation of those growing in clusters. I have no doubt that when the barbarians swept over the wall centuries ago they brought Asiatic walnuts with them from as far as Manchuria. They grew in clusters there like butternuts and heartnuts. No doubt some of them reached Europe, and some of them may have hybridized with the Persian, and I think really that's the answer.

DR. MACDANIELS: The same situation existed with peaches 20 years ago. We had five geographical races of peaches that were more or less distinct. With the exception of one, the Peento, they have all lost their identity now because there has been no attempt to keep them distinct.

DR. CRANE: That's right.

MR. CHASE: Then we end up, there is no such thing as a Carpathian, it's just a name for a hardy walnut that came from a certain region, that distinguishes it from others.

MR. KEPLINGER: In my parents' old home in Eastern Germany in the Bohemian mountains there is an English walnut tree that's 300 years old and bears a hundred bushels of walnuts a year. They stand 40 below zero there, too, and the nut cracks and hulls well. It has a record on standing the cold, but there hasn't been any of them brought out here and planted in this country, but they are there. I know they are there, because they are on our estate.

DR. CRANE: Mr. Moderator, there is one remark that I want to make. Here we are, the Northern Nut Growers Association, and yet we still use the term, "English walnut," when we are talking about Carpathian walnut and Persian walnut. This "English walnut" is the worst form of terminology that can be used. England doesn't have any walnuts; they have never grown any Persian walnuts or English walnuts, they haven't in the past and they aren't today. They have a few trees but are in the same fix that we are in the Northern Nut Growers Association; they are trying to find a variety of Persian walnut that they can grow in England, and yet here we call them English walnuts. They should be Persian walnuts, or Chinese walnuts. We don't know where they came from. The best authorities seem to think that they originated in Persia; others think they originated in China, but the abundance of evidence is on Persia.

We want to get this thing kind of straight. They are all the same thing, Juglans Regia.

MR. CLARKE: I'd like to make a suggestion. I don't know as you have any authority or power to change, but the term Juglans Regia means "royal walnut." Why not work for the adoption of a name like that, and it will include all of them.

DR. MACDANIEL: That's what they call them in France. This country has a little complication; there is another Royal walnut, one of the hybrids between the California black and the Eastern black.

DR. GRAVATT:-While we are talking about bringing English walnuts, Persian walnuts, whatever you want to call them, from Europe, I want to give a warning about a disease that is killing thousands of trees in Southern France. Just recently I saw quite a few of them in France and the edge of Italy. I don't know whether it's virus or what it is, but it is certainly killing out the English walnuts there at a very rapid rate, and I advise very strongly against introducing walnut seed, scions and such, from those areas in France and Switzerland or other areas in southern Europe where this disease is prevalent. We will know more later about it, because quite a team of pathologists is working on it in Europe.

MR. CHASE: Has anybody else got any comments about Juglans Regia? I am afraid to say anything else.

DR. MACDANIEL: I will say that this Carpathian strain, of Juglans Regia is the first walnut of the Persian type that we have had for Illinois. The Pomeroy, other Eastern strains and California varieties have not survived very long in the climate of the state of Illinois. We do know now that some of the Carpathian seedlings have been fruiting for 10 or 12 years and do show considerable promise there. I don't know whether it will ever develop into a commercial industry but they are worth growing.

MR. CHASE: Thank you. I'd like to ask George Slate what he knows about the Northern Star Persian walnut. Very hardy, and so forth? I think maybe the members might be interested in that.

MR. SLATE: Spencer asked me to find out about the North Star Juglans Regia, which was advertised in the Flower Grower. I called up the local nursery that was selling them, and they said they got their seeds from some Pomeroy trees in the western part of the state. I guess they are just Juglans Regia.

MR. STOKE: Down in Virginia we have Virginia Thin Shell purchased sometimes one place and sometimes another.

MR. CHASE: The secretary's office had an inquiry from the executive secretary of the American Nurserymen's Association wanting to know if those claims could be substantiated. I couldn't say on the basis of what information I had, and I so told him. Apparently they, through their organization, have stopped further advertising of that strain under the claims that they made for it.

MR. KORN: We find our public at large, not only our members, seem to be fascinated by the fact that the Persian walnut can be grown in this latitude. So in speaking to them about it, when I am speaking to our members, I try to say Persian walnut, but when speaking to the public at large, they don't know what I am talking about so I come out flatly and say English walnut. I tell them that we can't expect to grow the California type, but we have a hardier type coming from the Carpathian mountains or Germany or Russia or Holland, that can be grown successfully in this part of the country.

MR. CHASE: I think that's the only approach you can use.

MR. KORN: That's the one I use, and I think it quickly helps people to understand what you are talking about, and doesn't get them confused. If you talked to them about Persian walnuts, they wouldn't know what you were talking about, but if you say English walnuts, immediately they understand, or should, at least.

MR. CHASE: I believe Dr. Crane meant that in our inner sanctum he would prefer Juglans Regia.

DR. CRANE: I would like to ask if there are any growers here who have propagated the Persian walnut on Eastern black walnut, that is, experienced any trouble with graft union failure on them.

MR. STOKE: I haven't.

DR. MACDANIEL: Mr. Oakes?

MR. OAKES: I haven't.

MR. CHASE: No graft union failure on Regia and Nigra.

MR. STOKE: And my experience is they come in much quicker than on their own roots as seedlings.

DR. CRANE: How old are your oldest grafts?

MR. OAKES: Put on in 1938?

DR. CRANE: That's 15 years.

MR. STOKE: I have them at least 20 years.

MR. BECKER: Mine are twenty.

DR. MACDANIEL: Mr. Moderator, I have in my brief case a translation of the French book on walnut culture, and there is a section on root stocks. This was a publication issued about 1941, and according to that book, Juglans Nigra is the best stock they have for general use in France. They have reported no difficulty on this. A second one they were trying of the American walnuts, with some promise, was Juglans major, the Arizona black walnut.

DR. CRANE: The reason why I asked, as I reported in previous meetings—they are having very serious difficulty in Oregon and in parts of Washington with graft union trouble which is known as "black line." All or practically all of the walnuts in both Oregon and California and also what few are grown in Washington have been propagated on the Northern California black walnut, Juglans Hindsii. No graft union trouble evidence shows up before the tree has been grafted about 8 years, and then such cases are very rare. But after the trees or the grafts attain an age of 15 years or more, graft union failures are numerous. For three years now we have been making surveys in the State of Oregon, and we have surveyed tree by tree, year after year, the same orchards, the same trees, and our observations now go into the thousands, and we find that this black line is a terrifically serious thing. In some orchards 22 per cent of the trees will develop black line in one year's time. So, you see, at that rate it would only take you five or six years with a good bearing orchard until you wouldn't have any.

DR. MACDANIEL: Is that always with the Franquettes?

DR. CRANE: That is not only true with Franquettes but also with other varieties in California, even in Contra Costa County.

MR. STOKE: Where those trees are so grafted, does it tend to overgrow, or just the opposite?

DR. CRANE: No, it appears much like our Crenata-mollissima chestnut graft union failure.

MR. STOKE: Is there a tendency for the top to be more vigorous, to have more growth, or vice versa or is growth uniform?

DR. CRANE: It may be uniform. Depends somewhat on the varieties and the seedlings. There may be some overgrowth or some outgrowth, but there is only one test for it, and that is at the graft union. With an axe or knife and you cut out a strip of bark across the union. It may look absolutely perfect, but if there is a black line developed there that is just like a lead pencil line between the stock and the scion, the tree is on the way out. It's just a matter of time. Ultimately the bark between the stock and scion will split, and you get infolding, just like on the chestnut.

One of the reasons that they have propagated their trees on Northern California black walnut was that they had the idea that the Northern California produced a stronger, more vigorous seedling and that they grew much faster than seedlings of the Persian walnut. And, furthermore, somebody at some time circulated the idea that Northern California walnuts were immune to infection by the mushroom root rot fungus. We have surveyed thousands of trees of Persian on Persian roots, and we have never found a single case of black line developing or graft union failure as long as it's a Persian on Persian, and we find the same percentage of infection from mushroom root rot fungus on Persian as on Northern California black.

MR. CHASE: In other words, we should watch our stocks and perhaps try out some Regia on Regia?

DR. CRANE: That's right.

MR. CHASE: Now, folks, we could talk for a long time, but let me make one request before we close our panel: I would be interested in receiving from any member pictures, good, glossy photographs of the newer Carpathian varieties so that we can perhaps publish them in the newsletter and give some folks an opportunity to see what these nuts look like. Some of the folks who never come to a meeting never see a sample and just read about it. It's much better if we can show them a picture now and then. So if you have some good pictures, or plan to take some good pictures, remember, I'd like to have a copy.