Note 2 — Chapter XX · THE OUTLOOK FOR REFORM

The following is a newspaper interview with Mrs. T. C. White, the Princess Der Ling:—

"'What are the causes of the downfall of the Manchu Dynasty?'

"'That is a long story. This thing was expected long ago. Of course a lot of people in Peking didn't know anything about it, but we did—our family. My father did, at least, since the China-Japanese war. He said: "Within ten or fifteen years there is going to be a revolution in China, and that will be the end of the Manchus. In case they reform the country right away, it may be all right. But otherwise they will be finished by that time." At that time they didn't want it. We tried our best to reform the Court in lots of things. The Empress-Dowager—at that time she ruled—hated reform. She was very conservative. She wouldn't have reform as long as she lived, but, of course, we hoped that in case of her death the Emperor Kwang Hsu would reign. He would have been for reform; but we knew he probably wouldn't live through; he would die before her. That Court is so mysterious in every way—it takes too long to tell.

"'China has been an old, conservative country for so many years. They kept up the old style and of course the old generations like it because it is to their advantage. Just now the young people who have been abroad and educated want the Western civilisation and freedom. If they did not see anything better they would not know. But they begin to see how nice it is in America and how hard life is in their country, and I do not blame them for causing the Revolution. I would myself. I hate the old customs. But our family was one of the first progressive families. In fact, I should say probably there are very few like us among the Manchu families.

"'My father wanted reform. I remember hearing him talk about it ever since I was four or five years old. The first thing he wanted us to study was English. We were living at Shasi on the Yangtze River, and afterwards at Hankow, and he sent us to the missionary school. All his friends protested against it and said he was progressive, and wanted to sell his country to the foreign people, that was why he wanted his children to have a foreign education. The people called him at that time "a rebel." He was very progressive. It didn't bother him a bit. He wanted us to study and we did.

"'The Government was not fair. It was all for itself. It didn't have good ministers. The heads of different Boards in Peking were corrupt. First the Empress-Dowager, when she was alive—just as she did—everybody did. They squeezed. Every position was bought in China, every official position—all the Viceroys and Taotais. It was like this. If you are the Prime Minister I come to you with so much money and want this job. You say "All right." You take the money from me and another person gives a little more and you accept my money just the same, and his too. They left the good men without jobs, and put in the crooked people. That is the reason of the Revolution. They wanted to be treated fairly. Everybody has an opportunity or should have, but so long as the Manchu rules, the Regent rules—in fact, no one can get a chance except those who pay their money.'

"'Why are the Manchu princes and high officials so inefficient?'

"'The Manchus do not want to study. They are so grand, they lose their heads—they think they are, any way. The old Manchus were not like that—that is, the Manchus got bad about eighty years ago. Before that they were all capable men and fair in their judgment. They do not want to know anything at all now; they are so conceited, and you cannot talk to them.'

"'What is the chief source of their inefficiency—does it lie in their characters, training, or habits?'

"'Training, of course. Everybody praises them, you see. All they want is pleasure. The young princes in the Royal family think only of pleasure. The Regent did not want to study when he was a boy, nor his brothers. His father used to be very furious, but, of course, his mother took his part, and instead of sending him to school she sent him to play. Another thing, of course, the Regent himself is weak-minded. He has not any character at all. I say this from personal experience. I have talked many times with him.'

"'How are they brought up in the palace and what is the influence of this upon their views about government?'

"'That is the great mistake in China, the way the Emperor is brought up. The late Emperor Kwang Hsu deserved a lot of credit. He was brought up in the Forbidden City so exclusively that he could not see anybody who had any education at all, and played all day long with the eunuchs. The eunuchs are of the commonest people in China. In that way the Emperor could not have any chance to talk to people with experience so he could make a good governor. But Emperor Kwang Hsu was brought up that way and still had the idea of reform and I think he deserved a lot of credit. The Manchu law is very strict that children have to be polite to their parents' servants, so the little Emperor must be polite to the eunuchs; otherwise they could report to the Empress-Dowager. That is a very bad custom. If this little Emperor is brought up that way, he will not amount to anything. The present Empress-Dowager is a very nice woman. She, of course, has some Chinese education. That would have been all right some years ago, but we want something new now, something different. There is no use to stick to the old books written thousands of years ago. We want new civilisation now. Of course they had the idea at that time to shut the door and shut out all foreigners so they could not bother us. They cannot do that now; we must have something new.'

"'Will you be kind enough to trace and describe the influence of the Empress-Dowager at the Court, and tell why this personage cuts such an important figure.'

"'That is according to the Manchu law. If the Emperor is young and she rules for him, she has all the power. He is only the figurehead. Even if she retires, like the old Empress-Dowager did, the Emperor has to go to her and consult with her regarding the affairs. The outside world thought the Edicts were from the Emperor, but really they were from her. In case of something important he had to go to the Summer Palace and ask her questions. The late Empress-Dowager wanted power. She is the only famous Empress-Dowager in the history of the Manchu Dynasty. The present one does not care. She knows she cannot run those things and she does not care.'

"'What kind of a woman is the present Empress Dowager?'

"'She is a mild, quiet, unobtrusive person, rather indifferent. She knows very well that she cannot compare with her aunt, the late Empress-Dowager.'

"'What part is she likely to play if the infant Emperor remains upon the throne under a Constitutional Government and Chinese Regency?

"'Talking from a personal point of view, she would rather retire and be quiet. Some things happened while I was at the palace and we would ask her opinion. She would say: "I don't want to say anything because I do not think it is right." She would say: "I am not capable of telling you and cannot say anything at all." She does not want to run the Government at all. This I am sure of. The only thing she wants is peace. She certainly has suffered all her life. Although she was her niece, the old Empress treated her in a very mean way.'

"'Has she any real power?'

"'No. But she doesn't want any. We were talking one day about different things. During one of the Audiences the Old Empress-Dowager told her to take the foreign ladies to the refreshments. After this audience was over I asked her how she would like to act in the Empress-Dowager's place after the Empress-Dowager's death. And she said to me: "It depends on circumstances. If I am the Empress of China, I would, but not as the Empress-Dowager." That is, if her husband was Emperor and she Empress. "If I had a son I would have to depend on him. I have no son, and if that was the case, I would have to adopt one and it would be the same thing as the Empress-Dowager and Kwang Hsu.'

"'Will you please describe the personality and character of the ex-Regent and his brothers.'

"'Ex-Regent Tsai Feng; he is a very stupid man—a weak-minded man—very conservative. No one can talk reform to him. Some one did try it once just for fun and he said: "Our ancestors did not do that and I do not see why we should." Of course he favours the Conservative party. His two brothers are not like that. They have both been abroad, in Europe and America too. But of course they are not so overloaded with brains either. They are the three I mentioned a while ago as being so poor. All they want, these two brothers, is pleasure. There is one thing I want to say; when I was abroad a young Prince, Tsai Chen—came over to King Edward's coronation. Passing through Paris he came to see us. I was very much surprised. At that time there were very few progressive people. Four months after, I returned to Peking and found him just the other way and the same case with the two brothers of the ex-Regent. When they were abroad they got their heads full of reform for China, and of making China like Europe and America, and as soon as they got back to China they were satisfied with the way the people live. I was much surprised. I asked him once what was the matter. He said: "We have to live in this country and be that way and must be satisfied with it."'

"'Who is, then, the real power among the Manchu nobility?'

"'That depends now. Just now no one has power. It was supposed to be the ex-Regent because he was the head.'

"'Are the Manchus capable of regeneration?'

"'I doubt it. They don't want it. In fact, both my mother and myself did all that we really dared to bring the Empress-Dowager around to our viewpoint on the question of reform. The fact of our being able to speak more languages than our own naturally made the people in and out of the Court both jealous and suspicious of us. They were sure that we were trying to influence the old Empress-Dowager to adopt some of the foreign ideas that we had accumulated during our stay abroad, and one particularly good (?) friend of ours, Prince Na Yung, told everybody that my mother was a woman Kang Yu-wei.

"'One thing: they must bring up Manchu babies a different way and send them abroad. Then probably there would be some hope. This younger generation, like the ex-Regent, have common blood in them. The mother of the Prince Regent and the two brothers was a concubine of Prince Chung, the ex-Regent's father. And this woman was a slave-girl. She had no education. Prince Chung died and left the boys very young and they, of course, had no opportunity. They have their mother's blood and they are just like their mother. That generation all descends from concubines.

"My idea is, as long as the Chinese will have concubines they will not progress. It is common blood. My idea is that the first reform should be the abolishment of the concubine business. Let us say some officials have daughters. They do not wish their daughters to be concubines; they must be proper wives, so the concubines must be slaves or bad women. Now how can they bear fine sons? Their blood is common. One thing, however: the Imperial concubines are selected from the Manchu officials' daughters—the daughters from the first and second rank, not lower than that. They consider themselves just like slaves. It is an awful life. The late Empress-Dowager was a concubine. She was selected when she was seventeen years old. She had a son and gained power that way. Her son was Emperor Tung Chih, who died when he was nineteen. I know the girlhood of the old Empress, and some day I will write it. She suffered terribly after she went to the Court.'

"'What are the first things to be done in China to institute real reform?'

"'Starting with the family, the very first reform which should be instituted is to do away with the secondary wives. The next important if not the most important, is an entire regeneration of the official system. It is a well-known fact that the Government loses three-fourths of the revenue it is entitled to through the official system of squeeze, and by diverting the squeeze which now goes into the pockets of officials to that of the Government's pocket will immediately place the Government in the position of having sufficient funds to carry through other reforms they have in mind. The next is the putting of China's finances on either a silver or gold basis, whichever may be thought best for the country, and having an universal coinage system, thereby doing away with the enormous losses to the business people of China by way of continual internal exchange.'

"'Do you think the baby Emperor can be raised to be a capable sovereign for the nation?'

"'That depends upon the way that they bring him up. If they bring him up as they did the old Emperor in the palace and no one to see him, the eunuchs to keep him company, he will be the same as any other Emperor—he will not know anything.'

"'What sort of education and surroundings should he have?'

"'Well, you have to start from childhood to train his mind. They are so narrow-minded, those people at the Court. These eunuchs, to gain favour from the Empress-Dowager, praised the late Emperor, no matter what he did, and spoiled him. Raise this one as an ordinary little boy—a simple education to start with. He has the idea that he will be the Emperor, and praised by these people, he will get conceited, The present Emperor is now five years old; his Chinese age is six. I am very much afraid for this little boy. I will tell you why—his mother is so common. His mother's father was all right; he was a big Manchu official; but his mother's mother was a slave-girl bought from Yangchow, and that gives bad blood to his mother, the ex-Regent's wife. Of course, we talk "blood" a good deal, but if he is brought up among these people—the family do not know anything—he cannot gain very much. They are all so ignorant.'

"'What part will the Manchus of all kinds play in China under a Constitutional or Republican Government?'

"'Maybe many people will not agree with me, but I know. The Republican party is so strong; the Manchus will go somewhere and just keep quiet. They haven't the nerve to fight; they will go. Who wants to protest against this thing? It is supposed to be the ex-Regent and his two brothers. They make so much noise but do not dare to do anything. There is no strong character in the family. They are all great cowards. That is why I doubt about the little Emperor.'

"'What kind of Government do you think is better for the present?"

"'My idea is certainly not a Republic. I prefer a sort of Limited Monarchy—a Constitutional Monarchy—for the present. The only objection I would have to a Republic is that there are so many parties—so many provinces. They are all together now, but after they get what they want they will split and fight against each other. That is the character of the Chinese. By and by after the people, the younger generation, are all educated, the time will be ripe for a Republic.'

"'Will you kindly give me the genealogy of the baby Emperor, showing what part of Chinese blood he has.'

"'He is the son of the ex-Regent. The ex-Regent is half Chinese, because his mother was not a Manchu. The little Emperor's mother is about three-fourths Chinese; the little Emperor's mother's mother was full Chinese; her father was half Chinese. So that would make her three-quarters. So the little Emperor has more Chinese blood in him than Manchu blood. The blood has been mixed terribly the last forty years or so, because they all bought concubines. The ex-Regent's brother was the Emperor Kwang Hsu. He was the only son of the proper wife of Prince Chung, the late Empress Dowager's sister.'

"'Has Yuan Shih K'ai any reason to love the Manchus?'

"'No. I do not say he loves the Manchus. He is a very smart man and he sees the situation. He knows what is best for the country. I cannot say he loves the Manchus, although he was the late Empress-Dowager's favourite. She always trusted him. She could see that he was a capable man. The late Emperor wanted reform, but did not know how to go at it. Yuan Shih K'ai knows how to go about it; he is one of the progressive men.'

"'If the Monarchy is retained, what reforms should be made in the social life of the Court?'

"'They are not trying for such a purpose. The Empress-Dowager should take lessons. She is a fairly well-informed woman. She has read some of the foreign histories translated into the Chinese. She is willing to learn and to bring up the Emperor. My idea is to bring him up like a foreigner. You see, in China they do not teach the Emperor to love his people and his country. They do not do that. My idea is to teach him to love his people and his country, and make him know that he is responsible for this great nation and that he must do justice to everybody. Of course, that is a hard thing, but it is as should be. Teach him his duty to his people. Then it depends much upon the sort of wife he marries. I begin to think there is not a suitable girl to marry him. He has to marry a Manchu, and the Manchu girls have no education. Any Manchu girl would be out of place as Empress. My idea is that no matter how they change they must keep their little old-fashioned law. They cannot remove that at once. I know Manchus who lived in America for years and they even after that thought that the customs in their own country were best. How can they think that? I am a Manchu, and see things in a different light, and have since I was ten or twelve years old. I made up my mind then that I would not be under anybody. My father always said to me, "You are just as good as anybody."

"'The Court is so different from any other Court. The people are not used to those things, it will take time. First of all they must have proper Court ladies. Those princesses do not know anything. All they want is power—they do not know how to use it. What can they do with power? Any Court ladies with education will not want to stay with these ignorant women. They would have to fight all the time. My life was not at all sweet whilst I was there. The Government is just the same as a Chinese family. There is so much nonsense going on. Now these poor girls, they are brought up in the old way, and of course they are satisfied because they know no better, and when they marry they go over to their husband's family and get treated badly by their mother-in-law. You see, the Chinese teaching is so different; it always teaches a woman to be patient. And of course, in the case of a Chinese whom the parents send abroad, when she comes back she is a changed girl, and her mother does not like it. She will not listen to her mother's nonsense. Some silly little things they do in the family; they made the Chinese conservative party against the progressive. My friends are like that—the poor girls just suffer. I wish they had not had foreign education.'"